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Science Forum Index » Physics - Particle Forum » double-slit experiment
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| Hartmut Folter |
Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 6:14 pm |
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the double-slit experiment is typically cited as empirical evidence of the
validity of Schrodinger's wave equation
BUT, the slit experiment, is ONE SIDED, it only proves the particle properties of waves,
NOT the wave properties of particles
in fact, since there is not even a hypothesis wherby the wave equation defaults to
Newtonian mechanics under certain circumstances, I highly doubt its validity
I think it is more likely that particles can only be characterized as waves, NOT be waves,
or exhibit wave properties, at least with the instrumental analysis we have today
for instance
amplitude is a power function - easily explained by momentum of particles
frequency - easily explained by flux of particles over time
wavelength - simply said, particles can have color, due to absorption or lack thereof
I suggest if you pipe the known accuracy and precision of today's measurement equipment,
into the wave equation, the probailities of phenomena would fall apart
what does this have to do with origins? validates entropy arguments against evolution,
since the wave equation is invalid
although, Schrodinger was VERY CORRECT, in his Copenhagen Interpretation, in that
you must consider the measurement appartus (observer) introduced into a system
as a valid variable
Cramer's Transactional interpretation, leads to infinite loops of feedback in time
mechanisms
Everett's Many Worlds Interpretation, leads to variances increasing, from a relatively
low level of variance
I suggest this all leads us to a consensual reality model of the universe, granted
our particular consents may not be important in every situation, BUT, the fact that
physics seem to exist in such concepts of space and time that have no fabric,
they are a subset of such by a ven diagram |
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| flabbergasted |
Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:34 pm |
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Hartmut Folter wrote:
Quote: the double-slit experiment is typically cited as empirical evidence of the
validity of Schrodinger's wave equation
BUT, the slit experiment, is ONE SIDED, it only proves the particle properties of waves,
NOT the wave properties of particles
Do you ever understand anything that you read? Try reading the
following article.
http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/15/9/1
Pay particular attention to the section containing the statement
"The next milestone - an experiment in which there was just one
electron in the apparatus at any one time - was reached by Akira
Tonomura and co-workers at Hitachi in 1989 when they observed the build
up of the fringe pattern with a very weak electron source and an
electron biprism (American Journal of Physics 57 117-120)."
Be sure to read the followup letters further down the page. There is a
beautiful series of photos showing the build up of the interference
pattern from a series of individual electrons passing through the
system.
http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/15/9/1/1/bologna%2Dimage
This beautiful experiment shows both the particle and wave behavior of
the electron in a single experiment.
The rest of your drivel doesn't bear comment. |
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| Hartmut Folter |
Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:13 pm |
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Quote: The next milestone - an experiment in which there was just one electron
in the apparatus at any one time - was reached by Akira Tonomura and
co-workers at Hitachi in 1989 when they observed the build up of the
fringe pattern with a very weak electron source and an electron biprism
the work you cite, contains no experimental statistics
what was the precision of the electron generator at the weak source?
how was such precision measured?
experiments without statistics are not valid scientific evidence |
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| wf3h |
Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:40 pm |
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Hartmut Folter wrote:
Quote: The next milestone - an experiment in which there was just one electron
in the apparatus at any one time - was reached by Akira Tonomura and
co-workers at Hitachi in 1989 when they observed the build up of the
fringe pattern with a very weak electron source and an electron biprism
the work you cite, contains no experimental statistics
what was the precision of the electron generator at the weak source?
how was such precision measured?
experiments without statistics are not valid scientific evidence
tell it to galileo and newton. |
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| flabbergasted |
Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 10:38 pm |
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Hartmut Folter wrote:
Quote: The next milestone - an experiment in which there was just one electron
in the apparatus at any one time - was reached by Akira Tonomura and
co-workers at Hitachi in 1989 when they observed the build up of the
fringe pattern with a very weak electron source and an electron biprism
the work you cite, contains no experimental statistics
what was the precision of the electron generator at the weak source?
how was such precision measured?
experiments without statistics are not valid scientific evidence
The references to the refereed journal articles are given in the
article. If you don't know how to do a literature search, then you
shouldn't be lecturing others on what constitutes valid scientific
evidence. |
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| Wakboth |
Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 3:10 am |
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Hartmut Folter kirjoitti:
Quote: the double-slit experiment is typically cited as empirical evidence of the
validity of Schrodinger's wave equation
More like De Broglie's wave-particle duality.
-- Wakboth |
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| Guest |
Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 12:13 pm |
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In talk.origins flabbergasted <bacon@rigidrotor.com> wrote:
Quote: Hartmut Folter wrote:
the double-slit experiment is typically cited as empirical evidence of the
validity of Schrodinger's wave equation
BUT, the slit experiment, is ONE SIDED, it only proves the particle properties of waves,
NOT the wave properties of particles
Do you ever understand anything that you read? Try reading the
following article.
http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/15/9/1
[...]
Quote: Be sure to read the followup letters further down the page. There is a
beautiful series of photos showing the build up of the interference
pattern from a series of individual electrons passing through the
system.
You can also see a wmv movie of this:
http://www.hqrd.hitachi.co.jp/em/doubleslit.cfm
Steve Carlip |
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| Guest |
Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 12:18 pm |
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In talk.origins neutralino@gmail.com wrote:
Quote: Hartmut Folter wrote:
the double-slit experiment is typically cited as empirical evidence of the
validity of Schrodinger's wave equation
BUT, the slit experiment, is ONE SIDED, it only proves the particle properties of waves,
NOT the wave properties of particles
You can repeat the experiment with neutrons and get similar results
(though I understand that the effect is a couple orders of magnitude
smaller).
You can also see interference of Buckyballs (C_60 and C_70), meso-tetraphenylporphyrin
(C_44 H_30 N_4), and even fluorinated fullerenes (C_60 F_48). The latter has an
atomic weight of 1632 amu. See http://www.quantum.univie.ac.at/research/matterwave/.
Steve Carlip |
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| Robert Carnegie |
Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 3:57 pm |
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Hartmut Folter wrote:
Quote: the double-slit experiment is typically cited as empirical evidence of the
validity of Schrodinger's wave equation
BUT, the slit experiment, is ONE SIDED, it only proves the particle properties of waves,
NOT the wave properties of particles
Is it possible that you mean "it only proves the wave properties of
particles, not the particle properties of waves"?
If so, would that even be controversial? Do waves have particle
properties, particularly? I mean waves in general, not photons and the
like.
And why aren't you cross-posting in alt.drugs.psychedelic this time? |
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| Lee Jay |
Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 4:19 pm |
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flabbergasted wrote:
That's just so cool it hurts!
Lee Jay |
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| Guest |
Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 6:02 pm |
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Hartmut Folter wrote:
Quote: the double-slit experiment is typically cited as empirical evidence of the
validity of Schrodinger's wave equation
BUT, the slit experiment, is ONE SIDED, it only proves the particle properties of waves,
NOT the wave properties of particles
You can repeat the experiment with neutrons and get similar results
(though I understand that the effect is a couple orders of magnitude
smaller). The particle nature of waves can be demonstrated by the
photoelectric effect.
Quote: in fact, since there is not even a hypothesis wherby the wave equation defaults to
Newtonian mechanics under certain circumstances, I highly doubt its validity
Newtonian mechanics is just an aproximation of the more detailed
equations.
Quote: I think it is more likely that particles can only be characterized as waves, NOT be waves,
or exhibit wave properties, at least with the instrumental analysis we have today
In the end, photons are neither waves nor particles. They are photons.
It is a finite ammount of energy that is moving between an electric
field and a magnetic field.
Amplitude is how much energy is moving, frequency is how fast it moves
from one to the other, and wavelength is a function of frequency and
permitivity/permisitivity of the medium. Wavelength times frequency is
the velocity of propigation.
Quote: for instance
amplitude is a power function - easily explained by momentum of particles
frequency - easily explained by flux of particles over time
wavelength - simply said, particles can have color, due to absorption or lack thereof
Particles don't have colour, colour is an interpritation of frequency
ranges. Colour applied to sub atomic particles is just shorthand...it
could just as easially been called "smell".
Quote: I suggest if you pipe the known accuracy and precision of today's measurement equipment,
into the wave equation, the probailities of phenomena would fall apart
what does this have to do with origins?
nothing at all. |
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| Cygnus X-1 |
Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 7:57 pm |
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On Sat, 9 Dec 2006 17:14:11 -0500, Hartmut Folter wrote
(in article <ZJ7A2KYI39060.7250925926@anonymous.poster>):
Quote:
in fact, since there is not even a hypothesis wherby the wave equation
defaults to
Newtonian mechanics under certain circumstances, I highly doubt its validity
Bunk.
Using expectation values on the time-dependent Schrodinger wave
equation yields dV/dx = F = m*a.
I remember working this, either as a homework problem in quantum
mechanics or possibly in Ph.D Qualifier exams.
Might be able to find a version of the derivation in the Merzbacher or
Powell & Crasemann text.
Tom
--
Dealing with Creationism in Astronomy
http://homepage.mac.com/cygnusx1
cygnusx1@mac.com
"They're trained to believe, not to know. Belief can be manipulated.
Only knowledge is dangerous." --Frank Herbert, "Dune Messiah" |
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| Rusty Sites |
Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 8:22 pm |
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carlip-nospam@physics.ucdavis.edu wrote:
Quote: In talk.origins flabbergasted <bacon@rigidrotor.com> wrote:
Hartmut Folter wrote:
the double-slit experiment is typically cited as empirical evidence of the
validity of Schrodinger's wave equation
BUT, the slit experiment, is ONE SIDED, it only proves the particle properties of waves,
NOT the wave properties of particles
Do you ever understand anything that you read? Try reading the
following article.
http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/15/9/1
[...]
Be sure to read the followup letters further down the page. There is a
beautiful series of photos showing the build up of the interference
pattern from a series of individual electrons passing through the
system.
You can also see a wmv movie of this:
http://www.hqrd.hitachi.co.jp/em/doubleslit.cfm
Is that yellow box that says "Hitachi" a display connected to the
detector, a blowup of the detector, or something else, and isn't that
taking product placement a bit far? |
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| THE_ONE |
Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 3:41 pm |
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I have a question.
In the case of the Electron Double Slit experiment, the question is
where is there a case of frequency involved in the experiment that is
responsible for the wave interference pattern to be at the outcome of
the experiment ?
I assume that by releasing only one ELECTRON at a time, there is no
continuous frequency involved !
THE_ONE |
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| Lee Jay |
Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 3:47 pm |
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THE_ONE wrote:
Quote: I have a question.
In the case of the Electron Double Slit experiment, the question is
where is there a case of frequency involved in the experiment that is
responsible for the wave interference pattern to be at the outcome of
the experiment ?
I assume that by releasing only one ELECTRON at a time, there is no
continuous frequency involved !
You're assumption is incorrect.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave-Particle_duality#de_Broglie.27s_hypothesis
Lee Jay |
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