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ip1234
Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 8:58 pm
Guest
A couple days ago, my cousin (in his mid-thirties) noticed that he has
a well-defined, darker spot in the center of his field of vision for
one eye. His vision in that eye is also a little blurry. These
things are noticable day and night. His mother has had cataracts,
his grandmother has macular degeneration. Is it likely he has one of
those? (He has high cholesterol that is being controlled with
medication. His BP, cholesterol and weight are all good.) Who would
be the best person to see for a diagnosis? And, should he think about
getting disability insurance?

Thanks in advance.


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William Stacy
Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:08 pm
Guest
Neither one of those, but it could be a retinopathy, unless it seems to
"float" or move when his eye is stationary, which could mean just a
floater. Needs to be seen by an eye doc, and insurance may be a good
idea, but probably too late, unless he fudges the date of first onset
(aka insurance fraud)...

ip1234 wrote:

Quote:
A couple days ago, my cousin (in his mid-thirties) noticed that he has
a well-defined, darker spot in the center of his field of vision for
one eye. His vision in that eye is also a little blurry. These
things are noticable day and night. His mother has had cataracts,
his grandmother has macular degeneration. Is it likely he has one of
those? (He has high cholesterol that is being controlled with
medication. His BP, cholesterol and weight are all good.) Who would
be the best person to see for a diagnosis? And, should he think about
getting disability insurance?

Thanks in advance.


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ip1234
Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 10:29 pm
Guest
William,

Thank you for your reply. After reading about central serous
retinopathy (he is not diabetic nor does he have high BP), it sounds
like it describes his symptoms and situation very well. I am sure it
will be reassuring to him (since it has a much better prognosis than
macular degeneration!) until he is able to see a doctor.

Thank you!


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Don W
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:12 am
Guest
Quote:

Thank you for your reply. After reading about central serous
retinopathy (he is not diabetic nor does he have high BP), it sounds
like it describes his symptoms and situation very well.


Just curious, how does this all lead to this conclusion?

Don W.
ip1234
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 1:00 pm
Guest
Quote:
Don Wwrote:
[quote:606e91159d]
Thank you for your reply. After reading about central serous
retinopathy (he is not diabetic nor does he have high BP), it
sounds
like it describes his symptoms and situation very well.


Just curious, how does this all lead to this conclusion?

Don W.[/quote:606e91159d]


Which conclusion?

If he has retinopathy, it is likely to be central serous retinopathy.
From what I read, there are 4 types: retinopathy of prematurity,
diabetic retinopathy, hypertensive retinopathy, and central serous
retinopathy. He's not an infant, nor diabetic, nor hypertensive.

I am not sure how William came to the conclusion that it could be
retinopathy, but the risk factors and symptoms I read about that seem
to apply to my cousin are:

Male between 20-45
Stress
Reduced visual sharpness/blurriness
Distortion (very very slight in my cousin's case)
Grey or blind spots


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Don W
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 3:23 pm
Guest
Excuse. I was impressed as to how fast macular degeneration was
ruled out. But the odds are it would be age related and I did not note
his age range. Hopefully it is not that.
With this type of symptom occuring, I would be in the doctor's office
as soon as possible. Good luck.

Don W.
William Stacy
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 3:56 pm
Guest
Mac. degen does not ordinarily cause a positive scotoma (one that the
patient "sees" as a spot in the vision). I know some illustrators often
simulate the disease using a dark or black spot in the center of the
view. This is not what Mac Degen people see. It would better be
portrayed with the detail in the scotoma area just having the same color
as that surrounding the defect. (e.g. a face with missing eyes, nose and
mouth shown with the featureless area the same skin tone as the rest of
the face). Central serous retinopathy often does cause a positive dark
scotoma such as is often erroneously depicted as macular degeneration.

w.stacy, o.d.

Don W wrote:

Quote:
Excuse. I was impressed as to how fast macular degeneration was
ruled out. But the odds are it would be age related and I did not note
his age range. Hopefully it is not that.
With this type of symptom occuring, I would be in the doctor's office
as soon as possible. Good luck.

Don W.


Don W
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 9:05 pm
Guest
William Stacy wrote:
Quote:
Mac. degen does not ordinarily cause a positive scotoma (one that the
patient "sees" as a spot in the vision). I know some illustrators often
simulate the disease using a dark or black spot in the center of the
view. This is not what Mac Degen people see. It would better be
portrayed with the detail in the scotoma area just having the same color
as that surrounding the defect. (e.g. a face with missing eyes, nose and
mouth shown with the featureless area the same skin tone as the rest of
the face). Central serous retinopathy often does cause a positive dark
scotoma such as is often erroneously depicted as macular degeneration.

w.stacy, o.d.


Dear Dr. Stacy,

That is completely untrue. The natural blind spot (optic nerve) may
"fill in", but in "Mac Degen" the spot can be dark or black.

Don W.

PS. And the person experiencing this should see an ophthalmologist,
very quickly.
William Stacy
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 10:11 pm
Guest
I suppose it "can appear dark or black" but most patients I've run
across with macular degeneration don't report that. Most mac. degen.
occurs very slowly and the losses associated are usually "filled in" in
a manner very similar to that of the normal blind spot, or indeed, of
the Purkinje tree itself. I thinkd this is the very reason that most
macular degeneration patients have the "dry" type and first complain
more of a blur or an indistinctness of fine detail or of straight lines
appearing wavy or bent. Now a sudden hemorrhage like one might get from
the much rarer "wet" form probably would cause a dark positive scotoma,
but I don't see many of those (thankfully). Other docs here might want
to chime in on this, since many of them may see more of this than I do.
My patient population is pretty young, average age is about 42.

w.stacy, o.d.

Don W wrote:

Quote:
William Stacy wrote:


Mac. degen does not ordinarily cause a positive scotoma (one that the
patient "sees" as a spot in the vision). I know some illustrators often
simulate the disease using a dark or black spot in the center of the
view. This is not what Mac Degen people see. It would better be
portrayed with the detail in the scotoma area just having the same color
as that surrounding the defect. (e.g. a face with missing eyes, nose and
mouth shown with the featureless area the same skin tone as the rest of
the face). Central serous retinopathy often does cause a positive dark
scotoma such as is often erroneously depicted as macular degeneration.

w.stacy, o.d.




Dear Dr. Stacy,

That is completely untrue. The natural blind spot (optic nerve) may
"fill in", but in "Mac Degen" the spot can be dark or black.

Don W.

PS. And the person experiencing this should see an ophthalmologist,
very quickly.


Don W
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:26 pm
Guest
William Stacy wrote:
Quote:
I suppose it "can appear dark or black" but most patients I've run
across with macular degeneration don't report that. Most mac. degen.
occurs very slowly and the losses associated are usually "filled in" in
a manner very similar to that of the normal blind spot, or indeed, of
the Purkinje tree itself. I thinkd this is the very reason that most
macular degeneration patients have the "dry" type and first complain
more of a blur or an indistinctness of fine detail or of straight lines
appearing wavy or bent. Now a sudden hemorrhage like one might get from
the much rarer "wet" form probably would cause a dark positive scotoma,
but I don't see many of those (thankfully). Other docs here might want
to chime in on this, since many of them may see more of this than I do.
My patient population is pretty young, average age is about 42.

w.stacy, o.d.


The problem is with the symptom, one does not know how things will
evolve (quickly or slowly) in time. I have one reference that shows
"successful outcomes" depend on moving fast for treatment. They
plotted a graph where the x-axis was calibrated in _days_. Which tells
me you really have to move on this, insurance or not. Really, what do
you have to lose??
As to the Purkinje tree vascular event, that can be negated by moving
the light source across the retina where the vascular shadows are then
cast in a "slightly new (small offset) area". Where the brain is not
prewired as in the old area to compensate for their presence in front
of the retina.
As far as scotomas being filled in. Not usually so. I think it is
too new an event for the brain to adapt.

Don W.
William Stacy, O.D.
Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 2:54 am
Guest
Don W wrote:
Quote:

The problem is with the symptom, one does not know how things will
evolve (quickly or slowly) in time. I have one reference that shows
"successful outcomes" depend on moving fast for treatment.

Ok it seems that you must be talking about the wet or proliferative type
of macular degeneration, where things can indeed happen fast and early
intervention is necessary. Certainly moving fast is not an issue with
the common dry type of macular degeneration, as it is an exceedingly
slow process.

They
Quote:
plotted a graph where the x-axis was calibrated in _days_. Which tells
me you really have to move on this, insurance or not. Really, what do
you have to lose??

I do recognize the importance of early intervention in such a case. But
I also know that this is by far the rarer situation. The more common
type takes years to develop and that this the type that I was talking
about, where positive scotomata would be the exception.

Quote:
As to the Purkinje tree vascular event, that can be negated by moving
the light source across the retina where the vascular shadows are then
cast in a "slightly new (small offset) area".

More a phenomenon than an event, any localized deficit of retinal
function can be visualized by strongly illuminating an adjacent normal
retinal area.

Where the brain is not
Quote:
prewired as in the old area to compensate for their presence in front
of the retina.

I think it's more a retinal level (ganglion cell, etc.) phenomenon than
a cortical one. The recovery times for such things as the Purkinje tree
is so fast as to be hardly considered a "prewired" situation.


Quote:
As far as scotomas being filled in. Not usually so. I think it is
too new an event for the brain to adapt.

Like I said, the Purkinje phenomenon is a great example of such
relatively instantaneous adaptation. Shift the shadow a bit with a
strong oblique light source, and what is at first a dramatic
visualzation disappears within a second or so. Too fast for any
rewiring to take place higher up, that's for sure. It's all at the
ganglion level, right down in the retina itself.
gudrun17
Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 7:26 pm
Guest
On Jan 4, 1:23 pm, "Don W" <dwil...@prodigy.net> wrote:
Quote:
Excuse. I was impressed as to how fast macular degeneration was
ruled out. But the odds are it would be age related and I did not note
his age range. Hopefully it is not that.
With this type of symptom occuring, I would be in the doctor's office
as soon as possible. Good luck.

Don W.

My husband was first diagnosed with central serous retinopathy, and
then sent to another specialist who diagnosed a choroidal hemangioma
which was treated with PDT. In either case, it seems to me the chance
of recovering full vision diminishes the longer a person waits to see a
doctor. As it was explained to me, the longer the retina is elevated,
the greater the chance it will not flatten again completely. My husband
wishes he had seen the retina specialist much sooner than he did.
-Gudrun
Don W
Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:55 pm
Guest
When the spot occurs, such as the case here, I would not consider
this ("well defined dark spot") a possible manifestation of dry MD.
But the possibility of wet MD would bother me. Agreed, moving fast is
not necessary with dry MD. But it is not sure here how this symptom
evolved in time.

You comments on the Purkinje effect are interesting. I agree the
effect is transitory, lasting for a fraction of a second or so, at
least how I have noticed it. Then the incoming light is compensated
for, that is, one does not see the vascular tree. That to me seems
kind of a wonder, because during the normal day, light rays will strike
this area around the vascular tree at various (mostly random) angles,
and yet no image of the tree is produced ("seen"). But move a
light from a slit lamp across it and there it is produced.

But as far as scotoma is concerned, there is no compensation for the
missing field. I hope you agree.

Don W.
Mike Tyner
Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 11:21 pm
Guest
"Don W" <dwilgus@prodigy.net> wrote

Quote:
kind of a wonder, because during the normal day, light rays will strike
this area around the vascular tree at various (mostly random) angles,

But it doesn't. Normally the shadow doesn't move and the retina loses all
perception of edges that do not move. Wiggle a light (slit lamp, penlight,
even through the sclera) and the shadows become perceptible.

Floaters are visible because, suspended in jelly, they're seldom perfectly
still.

And referencing a previous conversation - floaters are more visible when the
pupil is small because a bare light bulb casts a more distinct shadow than a
diffused fluorescent fixture. Small sources make better shadows, regardless
of the amount of light. That's why floaters are more visible in bright
daylight - your pupils get smaller.

-MT
Don W
Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:06 pm
Guest
Mike Tyner wrote:
Quote:
"Don W" <dwilgus@prodigy.net> wrote

kind of a wonder, because during the normal day, light rays will strike
this area around the vascular tree at various (mostly random) angles,

But it doesn't. Normally the shadow doesn't move and the retina loses all
perception of edges that do not move. Wiggle a light (slit lamp, penlight,
even through the sclera) and the shadows become perceptible.


So what you are saying is that if one modulates the shadows edge, (that
is, turn the edge on and off) the vasculature will appear?

Don W.
 
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