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Mary Fisher

Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 10:52 am

Guest

"Jill" <mail@NOSPAMkintaline.co.uk> wrote in message
news:45918d81$0$8724$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net...

Quote:

"Mary Fisher" <mary.fisher@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:45917e4e$0$761$4c56ba96@master.news.zetnet.net...

"Amy Blankenship" <Amy_nospam@magnoliamultimedia.com> wrote in message
news:Wdekh.13028$%e7.12899@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
What's an RBST?

Rare Breeds Survival Trust.

We have done a great job in 'saving' old and rare breeds of horses,
cattle, sheep, goats and pigs. Not poultry because no-one can agree on
what a definition of a rare breed is in poultry terms :-)

Many of the cattle; sheep, goat, pig and horse breeders who want to have
their stock for work - however they classify the ability to perform -
wool, meat, hide, pulling, carrying, milk, etc - will and do disagree.
There are great breeders who are members of RBST and there are even more
who have been but are completely disillusioned with the the aims and
politics.

In that case they should join a better group.

And if there isn't one they should begin one :-)

Quote:

believe its back on the right road but there is a long way to go.
Some of the genetics that has been "saved" by RBST themselves are poor -
and some of the centres that carry their approbation do very little in the
way of breeding or education of worth. I have seen photos of Jacob sires
in a couple of breeding flocks, for instance, which were awful
representatives of the breed.

Are Jacobs rare breeds? I didn't think so.

Quote:

Another pal who is into cattle was appalled to find a particular rare
breed mini herd of cows [ I forget which breed ] in calf to a Simi by AI
[it is perfectly possible to get the rare breed by AI - she has] she was
gibbering with rage when she phoned me. Such a waste of money, genetics
and resrouces.

I agree, but was that done by the RBST? Individuals are free to do what they
want.

Quote:

Some of the RBST breeders do not consider that the meat and / or wool
qualities of their sheep are important.

Individuals are free to do what they want. That doesn't mean that RBST is at
fault.

Quote:

Within all breeds there is support for breeding for numbers whatever the
quality. There is almost no coordination. When beginners contact some
officials the complete twaddle they are told astonishes me every time I
hear about.it.
I wish I had the time and resources to make proper notes of what I am told
each year.
I wish our society was anywhere near the quality of the likes of that of
Germany and the US and a few other parts of Europe. I really pains me to
say that.

Well, do something about it :-)

Quote:

Stephen's comaprison to the RHS is very interesting -- I wish I had
thought about the correlation myself before -
I would also really like to see something close to the NPIP scheme here

I also really wish I had more time to do more about it. I know I meet a
lot of others each year who wish the same. I know a few who have tried and
had their efforts stymied.

Well, there's the rub. We have what we have and it's better than nothing.
There's no point in complaining if we're not prepared to do something about
it. Or would you like it to be taken over by DEFRA?

I thought not :-)

Quote:

There are really great breeders amonst the membership but the movement as
a whole in this country could learn a GREAT deal from taking on board
ideas and concepts from other countries.

RBST does do that.

Quote:

Deciding what breeds are or are not rare is much less important than
having no concept about what constitutes good selection practises and
monitoring schemes

It's not fair to assume that because some members do what you think they do
we all do it.

Quote:

The rarity of the usefulnes of the strains within the breeds would show up
very quickly with some decent recording

There is some excellent recording.

Nothing's perfect.

Mary

Quote:

Jill

Mary Fisher

Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 10:53 am

Guest

"a_l_p" <hay_hell_pea@eyehug.co.nz> wrote in message
news:emrvng$v1o$3@lust.ihug.co.nz...

Quote:

Tell me about it! The cat and dog show standards are even more
horrendous. When I flip out completely with an AK47 & start mowing down
breeders you'll know why!

Cats and dogs aren't in the RBST remit.

Quote:

(Anyone got a spare AK47 going cheap?)

They are VERY cheap from new.

Mary

Quote:

A L P

Mary Fisher

Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 10:57 am

Guest

Quote:

What a shame RBST don't copy other countries like this

Indeed.

You obviously haven't heard of the RBST reGENEration scheme.

There is plenty of opportunity to support it - for those who want to that
is.

Mary

Jill

Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 11:33 am

Guest

Mary Fisher wrote:

Quote:

I have seen
photos of Jacob sires in a couple of breeding flocks, for instance,
which were awful representatives of the breed.

Are Jacobs rare breeds? I didn't think so.

They were
and there are plenty of them in RBST parks.
If the aim of RBST parks is to educate present and future breeders then
using substandard stock when there are plenty of decent stocks around is a
poor show. In fact the response others, who have much more experience than
I, has been to call it irresponsible.

Quote:

I agree, but was that done by the RBST? Individuals are free to do
what they want.

This was a RBST approved and heralded park

Quote:

Some of the RBST breeders do not consider that the meat and / or wool
qualities of their sheep are important.

Individuals are free to do what they want. That doesn't mean that
RBST is at fault.

It does if they approve the practises and do nothing to educate their most
active members out of this philosphy
Its from RBST that the worst of this comes when you hear the advice some
folks are given

Quote:

I wish our society was anywhere near the quality of the likes of
that of Germany and the US and a few other parts of Europe. I really
pains me to say that.

Well, do something about it Smile

We are in our small way -- our resources prevent any more. I wish it were
different.

Quote:

Well, there's the rub. We have what we have and it's better than
nothing.

Is it ?
I would venture to suggest that dumbing the genetics down to the lowest
common denominator is actually doing more harm. I am not alone in this view.

Quote:

There are really great breeders amonst the membership but the
movement as a whole in this country could learn a GREAT deal from
taking on board ideas and concepts from other countries.

RBST does do that.

They have done little. They have rather been of the opinion that their way
is best.
They lay down great claims but others actually give a great deal more on the
ground

Quote:

Deciding what breeds are or are not rare is much less important than
having no concept about what constitutes good selection practises and
monitoring schemes

It's not fair to assume that because some members do what you think
they do we all do it.

Unfortunately up until recently there were too many people in high places
who had extremely poor judgement in this respect. They had influence and
have done much harm. Some of the valuable genetics we had in this country
has been lost by their actions, in all species.
The absence of decent records means its almost impossible to know how to
regain them.

Quote:

The rarity of the usefulnes of the strains within the breeds would
show up very quickly with some decent recording

There is some excellent recording.

There is very little.
For example -- there is no production records, fertility records,
hatchability records, liveability records, table growth records for any of
the flock they used to have and herald as great poultry flocks. They did not
even have pictures of the birds to offer. Of several breeds the strains
kept no-one who was respected in the breed for over 50 years knew anything
of them, they were not recognised as strains of note at all.
Over the years they have rebuffed all offers of help and advice from highly
respected poultry people with decades of knowledge and experience and
enthusiasm. In the most recent times there is a renewed interest in poultry
but its highly flawed and overcome by the amount of work required to bring
all the other species back into some sort of order.

They have not a clue how many birds there are of any breed for goodness sake
There was a time not long ago when they were making a great deal of the
scarity of the Scots Grey -- only 120 in the whole country. Complete
cobblers!! Someone brought my attention to this and we decided that between
us we had nearly 80 floating about our respective corners of the world. And
knew of many more - good bad and indifferent. All they did was to encourage
paople to keep Scots Greys - except they did not suggest that these people
bred them. All this does is create a demand for birds to be bred - however -
to be kept as pets. This simply weakens the breed further - as good birds
are leaving the breeding flocks before they have been recorded for quality
[eggs fertility etc].
Keeping a bird as a pet does nothing to preserve it
Breeding hundreds without really strong selection and recording does nothing
to preserve it
Passing birds out to potential breeders without careful information about
selection and records does nothing to preserve it

Most of the birds I have seen pictures of in RBST places are definately in
the indifferent class, repeatedly I hear of disappointments. Birds that have
been bought from RBST parks have turned out to be impure but no-one was
interested in taking the birds back.
Some of the sheep and cattle folks have similar tales of woe.

Quote:

Nothing's perfect.

But having some decent aspirations goes a long way to achieving something
useful
Replication for its own sake is not good breeding

--

regards
Jill Bowis

Pure bred utility chickens and ducks
Housing; Equipment, Books, Videos, Gifts
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine nursery
Working Holidays in Scotland
http://www.kintaline.co.uk

a_l_p

Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:08 pm

Guest

Mary Fisher wrote:

Quote:

"a_l_p" <hay_hell_pea@eyehug.co.nz> wrote in message
news:emrvng$v1o$3@lust.ihug.co.nz...

Tell me about it! The cat and dog show standards are even more
horrendous. When I flip out completely with an AK47 & start mowing down
breeders you'll know why!

Cats and dogs aren't in the RBST remit.

No - I was just sounding off about one of my pet hates re "animal lovers"
so-called :-(

Breeding animals that no longer function properly - e.g. faces so distorted that
they can't breathe freely or the neglect of functionality that Jill outlined -
to me these are ugly-human practices showing disrespect of fellow critters. But
then I don't hold to the belief that humans are really THAT much higher than
other animals! And the people who buy deliberately-misshapen animals facilitate
the breeders' trade. Ugly buggers the lot of 'em, except the animals who didn't
get any choice in the matter.

Quote:

(Anyone got a spare AK47 going cheap?)

They are VERY cheap from new.

Not in New Zealand - or perhaps I just mix with the wrong crowd!

A L P

Mary Fisher

Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:40 am

Guest

"a_l_p" <hay_hell_pea@eyehug.co.nz> wrote in message
news:emuns1$u10$1@lust.ihug.co.nz...

Quote:

Cats and dogs aren't in the RBST remit.

No - I was just sounding off about one of my pet hates re "animal lovers"
so-called :-(

Breeding animals that no longer function properly - e.g. faces so
distorted that they can't breathe freely

I couldn't agree more - and many of such excesses are seen in the poultry
world :-)

Quote:

I don't hold to the belief that humans are really THAT much higher than
other animals!

If at all. All animals can do things Man can't, all Man can do which they
can't is manipulate other animals.

Quote:

(Anyone got a spare AK47 going cheap?)

They are VERY cheap from new.

Not in New Zealand - or perhaps I just mix with the wrong crowd!

LOL! I don't know anyone with one but I know that they're easily (if
illegally) acquired. Another of Man's less attractive traits.

Mary

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