Duncan Craig wrote:

benlizross wrote:

Jacques Guy wrote:

benlizross wrote:


Haven't got time to check the etymology right now, but "fathom" is a
natural human unit for measuring things like ropes, the length of the
outstretched arms. Such a unit was used widely in the Pacific, so I
doubt this would be a mistranslation.

I think so too.


As far as OED reveals, "fathom" has basically always meant the same
thing, with related meanings of "outstretched arms", "embrace" etc.
There is the occasional apparent use where "cubit" or "ell" or "yard"
would be more appropriate, but nothing smaller than that.

So the measurement can change from six feet to three depending on
'appropriateness'? In which case, why nothing smaller? I'm not being
contrary, but usage and description of the device, whatever ones opinion
on its relationship to the quipu, prohibits 'fathom' being six or three
feet long. It would just require too much material to be portable.


However:


Yes! Line drawing, "Figure 30 - Mnemonic device used in learning
genealogies".

And below in the text: "It was the business of the tuhuna o'ono to know
and to teach the genealogies of his tribe. As an aid to memory the
natives used ta'o mata, mnemonic devices of woven coconut fibre, from
which hung cords with knots tied in them."

What does figure 30 show? A cord from which dangle more cords?


Yes, should have mentioned that. Point one: Whatever it is, it ain't 400
fathoms long. I'm not very good at describing such things (what are
pictures for...?) but if you imagine a flat piece of knitting in the
shape of a carrot. OK? The "root"is a string with a knot in the end. The
"fronds" are mostly short, but some are continued into longer strings
with knots in them. The body of the carrot is embellished with what look
like little strips of tapa.
Hell, somebody could probably scan this onto the net faster than I can
describe it. Anyway, doesn't sound like the other thing, not to mention
its different purpose.

Ross Clark

I don't see the difference in purpose.

Missed this earlier. By difference in purpose I mean that the 400-fathom
device in the earlier quote was being used for keeping track of
tax/tribute payments, the one in Figure 30 is for recording and teaching
genealogies.

By the way, I just looked seriously at the name /ta'o mata/ which Handy
gives for this device. /ta'o/ is taro, and of course what I described as
a "carrot" could very well be seen as a taro corm with stems and root
attached. /mata/ could mean "raw" in most PN languages, except that in
Marquesan it doesn't seem to have this meaning.

Ross Clark

Duncan Craig wrote:

Lloyd wrote:

**********
In an earlier post, (August 12th, '03) Duncan cited
the source of the same quoted passage as:

Bulletin of the Bishop Museum, ESC Handy 1919

Is there, perhaps, a 2nd monograph (maybe one that *is* obscure?)

Lloyd

Thanks, Lloyd, my notes are a mess.

*****


This will require more library searching than I have time for now.
Unless someone can find a complete listing of Bishop Mus. publications
online? That would be very useful. Nowadays the museum seems to list
only the limited no. of popular items they keep in print.

Ross Clark
*********

benlizross wrote:

Duncan Craig wrote:

Lloyd wrote:

**********
In an earlier post, (August 12th, '03) Duncan cited
the source of the same quoted passage as:

Bulletin of the Bishop Museum, ESC Handy 1919

Is there, perhaps, a 2nd monograph (maybe one that *is* obscure?)

Lloyd


Thanks, Lloyd, my notes are a mess.

*****



This will require more library searching than I have time for now.
Unless someone can find a complete listing of Bishop Mus. publications
online? That would be very useful. Nowadays the museum seems to list
only the limited no. of popular items they keep in print.

Ross Clark

*********
A search of the U. of Michigan catalog gives this
Title The native culture in the Marquesas, by E. S. Craighill Handy.
Author Handy, E. S. Craighill (Edward Smith Craighill), 1892-
Published Honolulu, Hawaii, The Museum, 1923. Description1 p. ., iv,
[3]-358 p. illus. (incl. maps) VIII pl. on 4 . 26 cm.
Series Bernice P. Bishop Museum bulletin ; 9 SubjectsEthnology--French
Polynesia--Marquesas Islands. Notes"Bayard Dominick expedition.
Publication number 9." Bibliography/IndexBibliography: p. 356-357.
Holdings Location: GRADUATE LIBRARY
Call No: AM 101 .B54 no. 9

Title Tattooing in the Marquesas, by Willowdean Chatterson Handy, with
38 plates.
Author Handy, Willowdean Chatterson. Published Honolulu, Hawaii, The
Museum, 1922.
Description32 p. XXXVIII pl. on 19 . (1 col.) 26 cm. Series Bernice P.
Bishop Museum bulletin ; 1 Subjects Tattooing.
Ethnology--French Polynesia--Marquesas Islands. Notes Bayard Dominick
expedition. Publication no. 3. Bibliography/IndexBibliography: p. 26.
HoldingsLocation: GRADUATE LIBRARY
Call No: AM 101 .B54 no. 1
Additional from the U. Calif. System

Bernard OrtizDeMontellano wrote:


benlizross wrote:

Duncan Craig wrote:

Lloyd wrote:

**********
In an earlier post, (August 12th, '03) Duncan cited
the source of the same quoted passage as:

Bulletin of the Bishop Museum, ESC Handy 1919

Is there, perhaps, a 2nd monograph (maybe one that *is* obscure?)

Lloyd


Thanks, Lloyd, my notes are a mess.

*****



This will require more library searching than I have time for now.
Unless someone can find a complete listing of Bishop Mus. publications
online? That would be very useful. Nowadays the museum seems to list
only the limited no. of popular items they keep in print.

Ross Clark

*********
A search of the U. of Michigan catalog gives this
Title The native culture in the Marquesas, by E. S. Craighill Handy.
Author Handy, E. S. Craighill (Edward Smith Craighill), 1892-
Published Honolulu, Hawaii, The Museum, 1923. Description1 p. ., iv,
[3]-358 p. illus. (incl. maps) VIII pl. on 4 . 26 cm.
Series Bernice P. Bishop Museum bulletin ; 9 SubjectsEthnology--French
Polynesia--Marquesas Islands. Notes"Bayard Dominick expedition.
Publication number 9." Bibliography/IndexBibliography: p. 356-357.
Holdings Location: GRADUATE LIBRARY
Call No: AM 101 .B54 no. 9

Title Tattooing in the Marquesas, by Willowdean Chatterson Handy, with
38 plates.
Author Handy, Willowdean Chatterson. Published Honolulu, Hawaii, The
Museum, 1922.
Description32 p. XXXVIII pl. on 19 . (1 col.) 26 cm. Series Bernice P.
Bishop Museum bulletin ; 1 Subjects Tattooing.
Ethnology--French Polynesia--Marquesas Islands. Notes Bayard Dominick
expedition. Publication no. 3. Bibliography/IndexBibliography: p. 26.
HoldingsLocation: GRADUATE LIBRARY
Call No: AM 101 .B54 no. 1
Additional from the U. Calif. System

Author Handy, Willowdean Chatterson
Title String figures from the Marquesas and Society islands, by
Willowdean Chatterson Handy
Publisher New York, Kraus Reprint, 1971
Description 92 p. illus. 23 cm Series Bernice Pauahi Bishop
Museum, Honolulu. Bulletin ;no.18
Series Bernice P. Bishop Museum bulletin ;18 Publication (Bayard
Dominick expedition (1920-1921)) ;no. 1 Note Reprint of the 1925
ed. published by The Museum, Honolulu Bayard Dominick expedition.
Publication 1 Language English Subject String-figures
Ethnology -- French Polynesia -- Marquesas Islands Ethnology --
French Polynesia -- Society Islands Format Book Library UC
Irvine UC San Diego All
Library Call Number Availability Notes

UC Irvine Langson GN455.S9 H3 1971 Circ status

UC San Diego SSH GN670 .B48 v.18 Circ status Stacks

Author Handy, E. S. Craighill (Edward Smith Craighill), 1892-
Title Music in the Marquesas Islands, Publisher Honolulu, Hawaii,
The Museum, 1925. Description 51 p. illus. (music) 26 cm.
Series Bernice P. Bishop museum bulletin ; no.17 Series Bernice
P. Bishop Museum bulletin ;no. 17. Language English Subject
Music -- Marquesas Islands. Added Entry Winne, Jane Lathrop,
1885-1976. Format Book Library UC Riverside UC Santa Cruz
UC Berkeley UC Los Angeles California State Library All
Library Call Number Availability Notes

UC Berkeley Anthropol GN670 .B48 v.17 Circ status *c2 copies
UC Los Angeles YRL GN670 .B45b no.17

Handy, Willowdean Chatterson Title Forever the Land of Men; an
account of a visit to the Marquesas Islands, by Willowdean C. Handy.
Illus. and maps by the author Publisher New York, Dodd, Mead
[c1965] Description xii, 233 p. illus., maps. 22 cm Subject
Tattooing Marquesas Islands (French Polynesia) -- Social life and
customs Format Book Government document Library UC
Irvine AllLibrary Call Number Availability Notes

UC Irvine Langson DU700 .H24 Circ status

Bernard OrtizDeMontellano wrote:



benlizross wrote:

Duncan Craig wrote:

Lloyd wrote:

**********
In an earlier post, (August 12th, '03) Duncan cited
the source of the same quoted passage as:

Bulletin of the Bishop Museum, ESC Handy 1919

Is there, perhaps, a 2nd monograph (maybe one that *is* obscure?)

Lloyd



Thanks, Lloyd, my notes are a mess.

*****




This will require more library searching than I have time for now.
Unless someone can find a complete listing of Bishop Mus. publications
online? That would be very useful. Nowadays the museum seems to list
only the limited no. of popular items they keep in print.

Ross Clark


*********
A search of the U. of Michigan catalog gives this
Title The native culture in the Marquesas, by E. S. Craighill Handy.
Author Handy, E. S. Craighill (Edward Smith Craighill), 1892-
Published Honolulu, Hawaii, The Museum, 1923. Description1 p. ., iv,
[3]-358 p. illus. (incl. maps) VIII pl. on 4 . 26 cm.
Series Bernice P. Bishop Museum bulletin ; 9 SubjectsEthnology--French
Polynesia--Marquesas Islands. Notes"Bayard Dominick expedition.
Publication number 9." Bibliography/IndexBibliography: p. 356-357.
Holdings Location: GRADUATE LIBRARY
Call No: AM 101 .B54 no. 9

Title Tattooing in the Marquesas, by Willowdean Chatterson Handy, with
38 plates.
Author Handy, Willowdean Chatterson. Published Honolulu, Hawaii, The
Museum, 1922.
Description32 p. XXXVIII pl. on 19 . (1 col.) 26 cm. Series Bernice
P. Bishop Museum bulletin ; 1 Subjects Tattooing.
Ethnology--French Polynesia--Marquesas Islands. Notes Bayard Dominick
expedition. Publication no. 3. Bibliography/IndexBibliography: p. 26.
HoldingsLocation: GRADUATE LIBRARY
Call No: AM 101 .B54 no. 1

Additional from the U. Calif. System

Author Handy, Willowdean Chatterson
Title String figures from the Marquesas and Society islands, by
Willowdean Chatterson Handy
Publisher New York, Kraus Reprint, 1971
Description 92 p. illus. 23 cm Series Bernice Pauahi Bishop
Museum, Honolulu. Bulletin ;no.18
Series Bernice P. Bishop Museum bulletin ;18 Publication (Bayard
Dominick expedition (1920-1921)) ;no. 1 Note Reprint of the 1925
ed. published by The Museum, Honolulu Bayard Dominick expedition.
Publication 1 Language English Subject String-figures
Ethnology -- French Polynesia -- Marquesas Islands Ethnology --
French Polynesia -- Society Islands Format Book Library UC
Irvine UC San Diego All
Library Call Number Availability Notes

UC Irvine Langson GN455.S9 H3 1971 Circ status

UC San Diego SSH GN670 .B48 v.18 Circ status Stacks




Author Handy, E. S. Craighill (Edward Smith Craighill), 1892- Title
Music in the Marquesas Islands, Publisher Honolulu, Hawaii, The
Museum, 1925. Description 51 p. illus. (music) 26 cm. Series
Bernice P. Bishop museum bulletin ; no.17 Series Bernice P. Bishop
Museum bulletin ;no. 17. Language English Subject Music --
Marquesas Islands. Added Entry Winne, Jane Lathrop, 1885-1976.
Format Book Library UC Riverside UC Santa Cruz UC Berkeley
UC Los Angeles California State Library All
Library Call Number Availability Notes

UC Berkeley Anthropol GN670 .B48 v.17 Circ status *c2 copies
UC Los Angeles YRL GN670 .B45b no.17

Handy, Willowdean Chatterson Title Forever the Land of Men; an
account of a visit to the Marquesas Islands, by Willowdean C. Handy.
Illus. and maps by the author Publisher New York, Dodd, Mead
[c1965] Description xii, 233 p. illus., maps. 22 cm Subject
Tattooing Marquesas Islands (French Polynesia) -- Social life and
customs Format Book Government document Library UC
Irvine AllLibrary Call Number Availability Notes

UC Irvine Langson DU700 .H24 Circ status

Thanks so much for this, Bernard. I'll scoot down to the UCSD library
this weekend. I wonder who Willowdean is? Wife?

Thanks for your efforts. The problem with tracing Duncan's reference is
that all the Handys' publications are based on field work with the
Bayard Dominick Expedition of 1920-21, so publications dated 1919 or
1903 are very unlikely. Hopefully he will be able to straighten this out
soon.

Ross Clark

I'm not very good at describing such things (what are
pictures for...?) but if you imagine a flat piece of knitting in the
shape of a carrot. OK? The "root"is a string with a knot in the end. The
"fronds" are mostly short, but some are continued into longer strings
with knots in them. The body of the carrot is embellished with what look
like little strips of tapa.
Hell, somebody could probably scan this onto the net faster than I can
describe it. Anyway, doesn't sound like the other thing, not to mention
its different purpose.

benlizross <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> wrote in message news:<3FD7EE30.5C66@ihug.co.nz>...

snip
I'm not very good at describing such things (what are
pictures for...?) but if you imagine a flat piece of knitting in the
shape of a carrot. OK? The "root"is a string with a knot in the end. The
"fronds" are mostly short, but some are continued into longer strings
with knots in them. The body of the carrot is embellished with what look
like little strips of tapa.
Hell, somebody could probably scan this onto the net faster than I can
describe it. Anyway, doesn't sound like the other thing, not to mention
its different purpose.

Or, one could go to an existing image of a carrot-like tassel:

http://www.beadinpath.com/images/class/fall2001/tassel.jpg

And here, on the top of Doug's touque
(he's the hoser on the left),
another sort of tassel:

(Ignore the mutant dog-shaped skunk behind the Mackenzie Brothers.)

A.L.

Thanks for your efforts. The problem with tracing Duncan's reference is
that all the Handys' publications are based on field work with the
Bayard Dominick Expedition of 1920-21, so publications dated 1919 or
1903 are very unlikely. Hopefully he will be able to straighten this out
soon.

Ross Clark

I'll risk your wrath at my sophomoric venturing into linguistics by
noting that
all of the words for these devices begin with the glottal 'k' sound.