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Glen M. Sizemore
Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 7:06 am
Guest
An excellent post, David. BTW, I forgot......which one of us is the sock
puppet?

"David Longley" <David@longley.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
David Longley
Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 9:36 am
Guest
In article <a9f70d1ae1a3ec4f540cfd965ac17d01@news.teranews.com>, Glen M.
Sizemore <gmsizemore2@yahoo.com> writes
Quote:
An excellent post, David. BTW, I forgot......which one of us is the sock
puppet?

"David Longley" <David@longley.demon.co.uk> wrote in message


I keep referring them to "On Having A Poem" so they can better

appreciate that we're all sock puppets of the environment. I keep trying
to show them that some are just a little more deluded/confused than
others. Rickert and Zick for instance, don't seem to think they're sock
puppets at all - but then they're probably "mentalists/cognitivists"
(though if they think that makes them sound stupid they'd deny it of
course!)

--
David Longley
Pisock
Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 11:41 am
Guest
pisock@hotmail.com (Pisock) wrote in message news:<ed2f7594.0402150857.5bbe98b7@posting.google.com>...
Quote:
Patty <pattyNO@SPAMicyberspace.net> wrote in message news:<vX9Vb.237514$I06.2670356@attbi_s01>...
David Longley wrote:
In article <%BRUb.187327$5V2.969688@attbi_s53>, Patty
pattyNO@SPAMicyberspace.net> writes

David Longley wrote:

What the Turing Test and others like it do is simply show how people
make folk psychological attributions, (an intensional modus vivendi).
This is also referred to (by Dennett) as "The Intentional Stance".
Words like knowing, believing, understanding etc along with our
psychological vernacular is mentalistic and dramatic or attributive.
Once you believe you can rationally infer within such contexts you
are prone to all sorts of trouble - and that's because the basis for
*rational* inference breaks down in intensional contexts (for
reasons I have covered many times before elsewhere). Failure to
appreciate this is why all such talk never caches out into behaviour
(or the extensional stance) and why it just goes round in
intensional circles (limited only perhaps by the scope of one's
'memory' <g>)..There's an uneasy tension here, elsewhere called "the
double standard" or "anomalous monism".


Except ... daa ... why would anyone in their right mind try to "infer
into intensional contexts" when we are pretty much taught not to do
that now in grad school. Then too, "talk" never does "caches into
behavior" on c.a.p ... am surprised that u might expect that it
would. Outside of that .. what you say makes some kind of sense but ...

What the Turing Test really does is just tell us that humans define
what it means to act like a human. I think skewing our thinking to
your view is just silly.


Patty


Regardless of what you're taught in "grad school", how about.. because,
*you*, like most folk are *not* (a lot of the time) "in [your] right
mind", and you *don't* (again like most folk) do what you are told?

Well i dont infer into intensional contexts ... i mean i
might infer in them but i wouldnt expect it to hold water.
As to the rest of your implications ... ill just take them
as compliments ... thanks Smile ...

Or are you just playing "Valley Girl" again?

... and none of my friends do either.

Patty

Pillars of mouths,
soft and fruity,
laughing with love and desire,
deliciously.

???

Jean Luke Pisock (George)

Watcher woke up this afternoon on a cloudy, rainy moon.
Elsewhere the May drouts were changing the Northern planets.
???
David Longley
Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 11:48 am
Guest
I've outlined the problems with our folk psychological intensional
idioms quite extensively for good reasons. Whilst they serve us
reasonably well as a modus vivendi (ie as intensional (and intentional)
heuristics), the problems they often cause in science frequently go
unnoticed.

I've used "said that" to illustrate what goes awry when we ostensibly
report what someone else says (or writes), showing (via reference to the
actual posts of doubters in this newsgroup) how invidious/insidious this
can become. Indirect quotation, where one substitutes apparently
synonymous verbal behaviour, whist tacitly or explicitly asserting or
assuming that what's reported was the individual's actual behaviour,
shows how, in our folk psychology, we tend to dramatically project
ourselves into the utterance of the others as often as we make reference
to their behaviour. That is, we "interpret" or "translate", and go
beyond the information given. This is the hallmark of the mental, or
"cognitive".

"Said that" is just a useful example of the whole set of mentalistic
propositional attitudes and the problem is that of the most mentalistic
notion of all, that of "meaning" or "thoughts".

"Seeing that", "believing that", or just their shortened forms such as
"remembered" have the same characteristics, and in other threads there
has been ample coverage of "seeing" as conditioned vision. Recently,
there has been extensive discussion of how the notion of "memory"
("remembering that") is used and how this frequently goes awry in modern
cognitive neuroscience where those using the term fail to appreciate
it's limitations and stray from using it as a euphemism for synaptic or
behavioural plasticity.

I don't think most folk here appreciate the force or scope of all of
this. Elsewhere I've reported on the trouble it causes in applied
contexts and suggested how some of these problems might be averted (see
references on "Cognitive Skills", "Fragments of Behaviour: The
Extensional Stance" http://www.longley.demon.co.uk/Frag.htm etc). The
reason for giving it all so much weight here, over such an extended
period, might, one have thought, have been obvious. However, opacity is
the other side of the intensional idioms, so it's not.

How many have appreciated the nature of the reservations expressed about
what has been said about language acquisition/"comprehension" in the
context of the work using the orienting response to novel and habituated
audio stimuli and how this bears on what has been said by those working
on the Experimental Analysis of Behavior (e.g. Skinner)?. How many have
given serious time and thought to Glen's (and others') illustrations of
the anomalies which arise when we use phrases like "I just remembered
that..." when talking about events which have not occurred, or other
tyrannical influences of language which Wittgensteinians, Quineans,
Ryleans etc have long tried to bring to our attention. All of this is
all too easily "forgotten", when the contingencies controlling ones
behaviour change.

The point isn''t that we don't "get by" colluding in the use of our folk
psychology as a set of heuristics. It has to be that way in everyday
life as we live in linguistic communities, we are social animals. But
the issue here is science and technology, and whilst psychologists,
anthropologists, sociologists, philosophers etc have been studying and
explicating this modus vivendi for at least a century, it needs to be
understood that the term *radical* is important when one is trying to
grasp what those working in the Experimental (and Applied) Analysis of
Behaviour are doing.

The problem is that unwary "cognitivists" (and that means most of the
untrained public including many frequenting these newsgroups who may be
highly educated in other fields), take our folk psychology at face
value, misunderstand and misrepresent what is being said by those
referred to as radical or evidential behaviorists, and resent being
corrected for quite understandable but irrational reasons - they think
they should know better because a myth has been promulgated about the
universality of their "Cognitive Skills"..

As many of the folk in "Cognitive Science" (including "Cognitive
Neuroscience") are either naive in this respect (in some cases, wilfully
ignorant) all sorts of nonsense is talked in these areas, usually
without them realising it. When this is pointed out, rather than
recognising the problems, they respond with incredulity, intolerance,
vitriolic denials and insults, and in doing so, tend to be oblivious to
the fact that this is how the ignorant inertia of the folk psychological
status quo tends to both manifest itself and be reinforced.
--
David Longley
Glen M. Sizemore
Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 5:30 pm
Guest
Neither assertion is false.
"Neil W Rickert" <rickert+nn@cs.niu.edu> wrote in message
news:c0o4vo$10c$2@usenet.cso.niu.edu...
Quote:
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"Glen M. Sizemore" <gmsizemore2@yahoo.com> writes:

And you never read Verbal Behavior either. See, Neil? You have something
in
common with Chomsky. You're both liars.

It is these kinds of frequently repeated false assertions that lead
one to distrust everything that Sizemore posts.

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