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| Guest |
 Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 12:59 am |
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A GRAND ILLUSION OF TIME
Time is a human concept. It requires an intelligent memory (such as the
human brain) to have relevance. Time and the notions of past, present
and future were invented by man to order events into a sequence by
identifying them as having occurred before, during or after other
events. Present or current time is a human sensation caused by
observing material objects not affected by change or perceiving a
sequence of macro events through human sensory facilities as still
happening or anticipating them when in fact they are already physically
completed or have not yet started. A unit of time is an arbitrary time
interval established for practical human purposes and derived from and
based on a repeatable cyclical physical process. Duration is a period
of time starting and ending with specific events identifiable by man
and separated by his units of time. All time concepts are used by man
to understand, describe and predict the causes and effects of natural
processes.
While time is essential to man, it does not exist in the universe or in
nature as an absolute or relative entity or anything at all. Nature is
concerned only with the state of the world, as it exists at a given
moment. It does not know of the past or the future. The physical state
of the universe and the extent and direction of the forces in it at
each moment is the cause of its state at the next moment and each past
or future moment is not planned, predicted, measured or remembered by
nature. Time, whichever way defined by man, is not required for nature
to function or progress.
Peter Riedt |
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| Harry |
| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 1:22 am |
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Guest
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<riedt1@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1115794775.825987.166850@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
[quote:6da5a1fc86]A GRAND ILLUSION OF TIME
Time is a human concept.
[/quote:6da5a1fc86]
Sure.
[quote:6da5a1fc86]It requires an intelligent memory (such as the
human brain) to have relevance. Time and the notions of past, present
and future were invented by man to order events into a sequence by
identifying them as having occurred before, during or after other
events. Present or current time is a human sensation caused by
observing material objects not affected by change or perceiving a
sequence of macro events through human sensory facilities as still
happening or anticipating them when in fact they are already physically
completed or have not yet started. A unit of time is an arbitrary time
interval established for practical human purposes and derived from and
based on a repeatable cyclical physical process. Duration is a period
of time starting and ending with specific events identifiable by man
and separated by his units of time. All time concepts are used by man
to understand, describe and predict the causes and effects of natural
processes.
[/quote:6da5a1fc86]
Correct.
[quote:6da5a1fc86]While time is essential to man, it does not exist in the universe or in
nature as an absolute or relative entity or anything at all. Nature is
concerned only with the state of the world, as it exists at a given
moment.
[/quote:6da5a1fc86]
Surely you can put that better, without depending on the time concept! For
example, something like:
Nature is only concerned with the progress of natural processes which change
the state of the universe.
[quote:6da5a1fc86]It does not know of the past or the future. The physical state
of the universe and the extent and direction of the forces in it at
each moment is the cause of its state at the next moment and each past
or future moment is not planned, predicted, measured or remembered by
nature. Time, whichever way defined by man, is not required for nature
to function or progress.
Peter Riedt
[/quote:6da5a1fc86]
Sure, "time" as we define is a function of processes and not the other way
round. Doesn't everyone know that?
Harald |
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| Dirk Van de moortel |
| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 1:33 am |
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Guest
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<riedt1@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:1115794775.825987.166850@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
[quote:2d0e1f6f0b]A GRAND ILLUSION OF TIME
Time is a human concept. It requires an intelligent memory (such as the
human brain) to have relevance. Time and the notions of past, present
and future were invented by man to order events into a sequence by
identifying them as having occurred before, during or after other
events. Present or current time is a human sensation caused by
observing material objects not affected by change or perceiving a
sequence of macro events through human sensory facilities as still
happening or anticipating them when in fact they are already physically
completed or have not yet started. A unit of time is an arbitrary time
interval established for practical human purposes and derived from and
based on a repeatable cyclical physical process. Duration is a period
of time starting and ending with specific events identifiable by man
and separated by his units of time. All time concepts are used by man
to understand, describe and predict the causes and effects of natural
processes.
While time is essential to man, it does not exist in the universe or in
nature as an absolute or relative entity or anything at all. Nature is
concerned only with the state of the world, as it exists at a given
moment. It does not know of the past or the future. The physical state
of the universe and the extent and direction of the forces in it at
each moment is the cause of its state at the next moment
[/quote:2d0e1f6f0b]
Moment?
First you say that time
"does not exist in the universe or in nature as an absolute
or relative entity or anything at all"
and then you start a rant about forces "at each moment"
*causing* the "its state at the next moment."
You are brilliant.
[quote:2d0e1f6f0b]and each past
or future moment is not planned, predicted, measured or remembered by
nature.
[/quote:2d0e1f6f0b]
So man does not belong to nature?
Very brilliant.
[quote:2d0e1f6f0b]Time, whichever way defined by man, is not required for nature
to function or progress.
[/quote:2d0e1f6f0b]
You've got it all wrong, Riedt: *you* are not required
for nature to function of progress.
Well... perhaps as a garbage collector, okay.
Dirk Vdm |
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| Guest |
| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 1:37 am |
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Harry wrote:
[quote:5147c7c428]riedt1@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1115794775.825987.166850@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
A GRAND ILLUSION OF TIME
Time is a human concept.
Sure.
It requires an intelligent memory (such as the
human brain) to have relevance. Time and the notions of past,
present
and future were invented by man to order events into a sequence by
identifying them as having occurred before, during or after other
events. Present or current time is a human sensation caused by
observing material objects not affected by change or perceiving a
sequence of macro events through human sensory facilities as still
happening or anticipating them when in fact they are already
physically
completed or have not yet started. A unit of time is an arbitrary
time
interval established for practical human purposes and derived from
and
based on a repeatable cyclical physical process. Duration is a
period
of time starting and ending with specific events identifiable by
man
and separated by his units of time. All time concepts are used by
man
to understand, describe and predict the causes and effects of
natural
processes.
Correct.
While time is essential to man, it does not exist in the universe
or in
nature as an absolute or relative entity or anything at all. Nature
is
concerned only with the state of the world, as it exists at a given
moment.
Surely you can put that better, without depending on the time
concept! For
example, something like:
Nature is only concerned with the progress of natural processes which
change
the state of the universe.
It does not know of the past or the future. The physical state
of the universe and the extent and direction of the forces in it at
each moment is the cause of its state at the next moment and each
past
or future moment is not planned, predicted, measured or remembered
by
nature. Time, whichever way defined by man, is not required for
nature
to function or progress.
Peter Riedt
Sure, "time" as we define is a function of processes and not the
other way
round. Doesn't everyone know that?
Harald
[/quote:5147c7c428]
Harald, in this newsgroup are many clock idolators who think the
universe runs by their image of the clock!
Peter Riedt |
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| Dirk Van de moortel |
| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 1:46 am |
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Guest
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<riedt1@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:1115797052.333167.22780@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
[snip]
[quote:4fbb567685]Harald, in this newsgroup are many clock idolators who think the
universe runs by their image of the clock!
[/quote:4fbb567685]
Yes, there are many idiots like you who think that physicists
are clock idolators who think the universe runs by their image
of the clock.
You are one of them.
What do you think went wrong in your education?
Dirk Vdm |
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| Guest |
| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 1:52 am |
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Dirk, the term 'moment' has two connotations. One is part of human time
concepts. The other is used by me to explain the concept of causes for
the changes in the universe. Perhaps there is a better definition.
Peter Riedt |
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| Raymond Yohros |
| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 1:56 am |
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[quote:c4979ab21f]Harald, in this newsgroup are many clock idolators who think the
universe runs by their image of the clock!
Peter Riedt
[/quote:c4979ab21f]
Time has always been missunderstood. just like
many creative minds.
Time, the variable of variables, should
always be related to space to make any sense.
when is an expansion space, then it is the real time.
when is a compresion space then it is an imaginary
time or dreamtime. xtremly hard 2 understand.
who could possibly understand it? |
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| Dirk Van de moortel |
| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 2:00 am |
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Guest
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<riedt1@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:1115797940.503099.299550@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
[quote:473db34331]Dirk, the term 'moment' has two connotations. One is part of human time
concepts. The other is used by me to explain the concept of causes for
the changes in the universe. Perhaps there is a better definition.
[/quote:473db34331]
We define time as what we read on a clock, and then we look
at nature and Describe What Happens In How Much Time.
Each having our own clock, we then Compare Our Results.
That is extremely simple, straighforward and unambiguous,
and it is what physicists do.
For some very strange reason garbage collectors and armchair
philosophers always look for something much more complicated.
They seem to be satisfied when they can put together a bunch
of ideas that they can't properly express and that no one else
can properly understand. Bizarre.
Dirk Vdm |
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| Guest |
| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 2:15 am |
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In article <iYige.87842$u31.5433473@phobos.telenet-ops.be>, "Dirk Van de moortel" <dirkvandemoortel@ThankS-NO-SperM.hotmail.com> writes:
[quote:d172550a24]
riedt1@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:1115797940.503099.299550@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Dirk, the term 'moment' has two connotations. One is part of human time
concepts. The other is used by me to explain the concept of causes for
the changes in the universe. Perhaps there is a better definition.
We define time as what we read on a clock, and then we look
at nature and Describe What Happens In How Much Time.
Each having our own clock, we then Compare Our Results.
That is extremely simple, straighforward and unambiguous,
and it is what physicists do.
For some very strange reason garbage collectors and armchair
philosophers always look for something much more complicated.
They seem to be satisfied when they can put together a bunch
of ideas that they can't properly express and that no one else
can properly understand. Bizarre.
Oh, it is but the time honered technique of "look ma, I'm profound,[/quote:d172550a24]
I'm saying stuff nobody can understand". Bizarre? Nah. "Pathetic" is
more like it.
Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool,
meron@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same" |
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| Dirk Van de moortel |
| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 2:54 am |
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Guest
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<mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu> wrote in message news:Gajge.30$25.5446@news.uchicago.edu...
[quote:f34d03009e]In article <iYige.87842$u31.5433473@phobos.telenet-ops.be>, "Dirk Van de moortel" <dirkvandemoortel@ThankS-NO-SperM.hotmail.com
writes:
riedt1@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:1115797940.503099.299550@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Dirk, the term 'moment' has two connotations. One is part of human time
concepts. The other is used by me to explain the concept of causes for
the changes in the universe. Perhaps there is a better definition.
We define time as what we read on a clock, and then we look
at nature and Describe What Happens In How Much Time.
Each having our own clock, we then Compare Our Results.
That is extremely simple, straighforward and unambiguous,
and it is what physicists do.
For some very strange reason garbage collectors and armchair
philosophers always look for something much more complicated.
They seem to be satisfied when they can put together a bunch
of ideas that they can't properly express and that no one else
can properly understand. Bizarre.
Oh, it is but the time honered technique of "look ma, I'm profound,
I'm saying stuff nobody can understand". Bizarre? Nah. "Pathetic" is
more like it.
[/quote:f34d03009e]
I'm looking for a non-pathetic counterexample, but
I can't immediately find one.
So yes, perhaps this is what drives them. Bizarre ;-)
Dirk Vdm |
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| Guest |
| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 3:55 am |
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In article <LKjge.87863$so7.5293127@phobos.telenet-ops.be>,
"Dirk Van de moortel" <dirkvandemoortel@ThankS-NO-SperM.hotmail.com>
wrote:
[quote:929f2401ef]
mmeron@cars3.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
news:Gajge.30$25.5446@news.uchicago.edu...
In article <iYige.87842$u31.5433473@phobos.telenet-ops.be>, "Dirk Van de
moortel" <dirkvandemoortel@ThankS-NO-SperM.hotmail.com
writes:
riedt1@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1115797940.503099.299550@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Dirk, the term 'moment' has two connotations. One is part of human
time
concepts. The other is used by me to explain the concept of causes
for
the changes in the universe. Perhaps there is a better definition.
We define time as what we read on a clock, and then we look
at nature and Describe What Happens In How Much Time.
Each having our own clock, we then Compare Our Results.
That is extremely simple, straighforward and unambiguous,
and it is what physicists do.
For some very strange reason garbage collectors and armchair
philosophers always look for something much more complicated.
They seem to be satisfied when they can put together a bunch
of ideas that they can't properly express and that no one else
can properly understand. Bizarre.
Oh, it is but the time honered technique of "look ma, I'm profound,
I'm saying stuff nobody can understand". Bizarre? Nah. "Pathetic" is
more like it.
I'm looking for a non-pathetic counterexample, but
I can't immediately find one.
[/quote:929f2401ef]
Listen to any speech made by Hillary Clinton.
[quote:929f2401ef]So yes, perhaps this is what drives them. Bizarre 
[/quote:929f2401ef]
It's snob appeal. A visual example is somebody who
claims to appreciate certain displays in art galleries.
/BAH
Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. |
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| Dirk Van de moortel |
| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 4:43 am |
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| AllYou! |
| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 5:30 am |
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Guest
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<riedt1@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1115794775.825987.166850@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
[quote:e1c11c72cf]A GRAND ILLUSION OF TIME
Time is a human concept. It requires an intelligent memory (such as the
human brain) to have relevance. Time and the notions of past, present
and future were invented by man to order events into a sequence by
identifying them as having occurred before, during or after other
events. Present or current time is a human sensation caused by
observing material objects not affected by change or perceiving a
sequence of macro events through human sensory facilities as still
happening or anticipating them when in fact they are already physically
completed or have not yet started. A unit of time is an arbitrary time
interval established for practical human purposes and derived from and
based on a repeatable cyclical physical process. Duration is a period
of time starting and ending with specific events identifiable by man
and separated by his units of time. All time concepts are used by man
to understand, describe and predict the causes and effects of natural
processes.
While time is essential to man, it does not exist in the universe or in
nature as an absolute or relative entity or anything at all. Nature is
concerned only with the state of the world, as it exists at a given
moment. It does not know of the past or the future. The physical state
of the universe and the extent and direction of the forces in it at
each moment is the cause of its state at the next moment and each past
or future moment is not planned, predicted, measured or remembered by
nature. Time, whichever way defined by man, is not required for nature
to function or progress.
[/quote:e1c11c72cf]
I've been saying the exact same thing in this NG, but not as well, for what seems like
forever. Thank you. Well said. |
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| Dirk Van de moortel |
| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 5:40 am |
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"AllYou!" <idaman@conversent.net> wrote in message news:UfOdnWvbBJUucRzfRVn-hw@conversent.net...
[quote:db0bea5756]
riedt1@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1115794775.825987.166850@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
A GRAND ILLUSION OF TIME
Time is a human concept. It requires an intelligent memory (such as the
human brain) to have relevance. Time and the notions of past, present
and future were invented by man to order events into a sequence by
identifying them as having occurred before, during or after other
events. Present or current time is a human sensation caused by
observing material objects not affected by change or perceiving a
sequence of macro events through human sensory facilities as still
happening or anticipating them when in fact they are already physically
completed or have not yet started. A unit of time is an arbitrary time
interval established for practical human purposes and derived from and
based on a repeatable cyclical physical process. Duration is a period
of time starting and ending with specific events identifiable by man
and separated by his units of time. All time concepts are used by man
to understand, describe and predict the causes and effects of natural
processes.
While time is essential to man, it does not exist in the universe or in
nature as an absolute or relative entity or anything at all. Nature is
concerned only with the state of the world, as it exists at a given
moment. It does not know of the past or the future. The physical state
of the universe and the extent and direction of the forces in it at
each moment is the cause of its state at the next moment and each past
or future moment is not planned, predicted, measured or remembered by
nature. Time, whichever way defined by man, is not required for nature
to function or progress.
I've been saying the exact same thing in this NG, but not as well, for what seems like
forever. Thank you. Well said.
[/quote:db0bea5756]
You have taken an overdose of self-respect.
http://users.pandora.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Stuff/Self-respect.html
Besides, you said it *much* better than Riedt right here:
http://users.pandora.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/Derivative.html
and at
http://users.pandora.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/BaddaBing.html
http://users.pandora.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/Transparency.html
http://users.pandora.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/YourMotives.html
http://users.pandora.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/DoAndrocles.html
http://users.pandora.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/Observable.html
http://users.pandora.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/NotATroll.html
http://users.pandora.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/EveryLurker.html
http://users.pandora.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/Cowardice.html
Dirk Vdm |
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| AllYou! |
| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 6:12 am |
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Guest
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I'm sure you feel that way.
"Self-respect must be about the most silly thing a person could have." -- van Moortel. |
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