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| doorelkaar |
 Posted: Fri May 06, 2005 5:36 pm |
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Hi! I am working on adverbial clauses and would really appreciate your
help with a couple of sentences. They are in English, but your
judgments on their translations into other languages (provided you are
a native speaker of them) will be equally useful.
My starting point is that there are ambiguous sentences like the
following: "I left when I said I would leave". It can mean two things:
that I left exactly when I predicted, or that I left when I pronounced
the words "I will leave". Now for the trickier ones:
1) "John left before I said Mary would come back"
Can this be a paraphrase of the following:
"John left before Mary would come back (according to what I said)"?
Or does it just mean:
"John left before I said 'Mary will come back'"?
2) "I will stay until you say I have to go"
Can this be a paraphrase of:
"I will stay until I have to go (according to what you say)"?
Or does it just mean:
"I will stay until you say 'You have to go'"?
Thank you so much
Giorgio |
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| benlizross |
| Posted: Fri May 06, 2005 6:16 pm |
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doorelkaar wrote:
[quote:461d11119e]
Hi! I am working on adverbial clauses and would really appreciate your
help with a couple of sentences. They are in English, but your
judgments on their translations into other languages (provided you are
a native speaker of them) will be equally useful.
My starting point is that there are ambiguous sentences like the
following: "I left when I said I would leave". It can mean two things:
that I left exactly when I predicted, or that I left when I pronounced
the words "I will leave". Now for the trickier ones:
1) "John left before I said Mary would come back"
Can this be a paraphrase of the following:
"John left before Mary would come back (according to what I said)"?
Or does it just mean:
"John left before I said 'Mary will come back'"?
2) "I will stay until you say I have to go"
Can this be a paraphrase of:
"I will stay until I have to go (according to what you say)"?
Or does it just mean:
"I will stay until you say 'You have to go'"?
Thank you so much
Giorgio
[/quote:461d11119e]
Both meanings are possible in both cases.
Ross Clark |
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| doorelkaar |
| Posted: Fri May 06, 2005 6:28 pm |
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benlizross wrote:
[quote:7fc0ff455f]doorelkaar wrote:
Hi! I am working on adverbial clauses and would really appreciate
your
help with a couple of sentences. They are in English, but your
judgments on their translations into other languages (provided you
are
a native speaker of them) will be equally useful.
My starting point is that there are ambiguous sentences like the
following: "I left when I said I would leave". It can mean two
things:
that I left exactly when I predicted, or that I left when I
pronounced
the words "I will leave". Now for the trickier ones:
1) "John left before I said Mary would come back"
Can this be a paraphrase of the following:
"John left before Mary would come back (according to what I said)"?
Or does it just mean:
"John left before I said 'Mary will come back'"?
2) "I will stay until you say I have to go"
Can this be a paraphrase of:
"I will stay until I have to go (according to what you say)"?
Or does it just mean:
"I will stay until you say 'You have to go'"?
Thank you so much
Giorgio
Both meanings are possible in both cases.
[/quote:7fc0ff455f]
Thanks! |
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| Sean McIlroy |
| Posted: Sun May 08, 2005 8:54 am |
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i concur. i buy both readings in each case.
peace
stm |
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| Helmut Richter |
| Posted: Sun May 08, 2005 9:31 am |
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doorelkaar:
[quote:f7bce4ccb7]My starting point is that there are ambiguous sentences like the
following: "I left when I said I would leave". It can mean two things:
[...]
1) "John left before I said Mary would come back"
2) "I will stay until you say I have to go"
[/quote:f7bce4ccb7]
When I translate these sentences into German keeping as much as possible
the English sentence structure, they get the unambiguous meaning
"somethings happens before someone says something":
0) Ich ging, als ich sagte, ich würde gehen.
1) John ging, bevor ich sagte, Mary werde zurückkommen.
2) Ich werde bleiben, bis du sagst, ich müsse gehen.
If the other meaning "something happens when/before/until something else
happens as announced" is intended, the sentences must be reworded, which
can hardly be done keeping the conciseness of the English original:
0) Ich ging, wie ich gesagte hatte, dass ich gehen würde.
Ich ging zu der Zeit, von der ich gesagte hatte, dass ich gehen würde.
1) John ging, bevor, wie ich sagte, Mary zurückkommen würde.
2) Ich werde bleiben, bis ich, wie du sagst, gehen muss.
The plus-quam-perfect in sentence (0) follows from the logic. Obviously,
the announcement of my departure was earlier than the departure itself, so
that, when the main clause is in the preterite, the subordinate clause
must be in the plus-quam-perfect ("as I *had* said"). In the two other
sentences the same reasoning might apply or not.
In all three cases the construction is clumsy and would probably be
avoided, for instance:
0) Ich ging, als ich nach meinen Worten gehen wollte.
(I went when I would go according to my words.)
Helmut Richter |
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| doorelkaar |
| Posted: Mon May 09, 2005 10:23 am |
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[quote:0903f2e775]My starting point is that there are ambiguous sentences like the
following: "I left when I said I would leave". It can mean two
things:
[...]
1) "John left before I said Mary would come back"
2) "I will stay until you say I have to go"
When I translate these sentences into German keeping as much as
possible
the English sentence structure, they get the unambiguous meaning
"somethings happens before someone says something":
0) Ich ging, als ich sagte, ich würde gehen.
1) John ging, bevor ich sagte, Mary werde zurückkommen.
2) Ich werde bleiben, bis du sagst, ich müsse gehen.
If the other meaning "something happens when/before/until something
else
happens as announced" is intended, the sentences must be reworded,
which
can hardly be done keeping the conciseness of the English original:
0) Ich ging, wie ich gesagte hatte, dass ich gehen würde.
Ich ging zu der Zeit, von der ich gesagte hatte, dass ich gehen
würde.
1) John ging, bevor, wie ich sagte, Mary zurückkommen würde.
2) Ich werde bleiben, bis ich, wie du sagst, gehen muss.
[/quote:0903f2e775]
Thank you so much for your answer. Someone told me they would keep the
ambiguity of "when" by saying something like:
- Ich bin gegangen wann ich sagte dass ich gehen wuerde.
Does that sound ok to you?
Giorgio |
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| doorelkaar |
| Posted: Mon May 09, 2005 10:27 am |
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[quote:02a9794e22]1) "John left before I said Mary would come back"
Can this be a paraphrase of the following:
"John left before Mary would come back (according to what I said)"?
Or does it just mean:
"John left before I said 'Mary will come back'"?
2) "I will stay until you say I have to go"
Can this be a paraphrase of:
"I will stay until I have to go (according to what you say)"?
Or does it just mean:
"I will stay until you say 'You have to go'"?
[/quote:02a9794e22]
- Both meanings are possible in both cases.
Ok, now I am curious again... eheh
Does anything change if I add a complementizer:
- John left before I said that Mary would come back.
- I will stay until you say that I have to go.
Are these still ambiguous?
Thanks again  |
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| Neeraj Mathur |
| Posted: Mon May 09, 2005 10:40 am |
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"doorelkaar" <testa.giorgio@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1115656064.947721.193220@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
[quote:35671fb423]Ok, now I am curious again... eheh
Does anything change if I add a complementizer:
- John left before I said that Mary would come back.
- I will stay until you say that I have to go.
[/quote:35671fb423]
Still ambiguous to me at least, both of them: 'I will stay until you say a
certain phrase'; 'I will stay until the time that you announce for the
necessity of my departure' and likewise for the other one.
Neeraj Mathur |
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| Helmut Richter |
| Posted: Tue May 10, 2005 1:53 am |
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doorelkaar:
[quote:d4615aef29]My starting point is that there are ambiguous sentences like the
following: "I left when I said I would leave". It can mean two
Thank you so much for your answer. Someone told me they would keep the
ambiguity of "when" by saying something like:
- Ich bin gegangen wann ich sagte dass ich gehen wuerde.
[/quote:d4615aef29]
The trick is the usage of "wann". For the English word "when", there are
three German translations:
a) wenn: the conjunction "when" in present or future tense and when it is
synonymous to "if"
b) als: the conjunction "when" in past tense
c) wann: the interrogative "when?" and the conjunction that plays its rôle
("when" as abbreviation of "the answer to the question 'when?'")
Ich sage es dir, wenn ich gehe. = I'll tell you [then] when I leave.
Ich sage dir, wann ich gehe. = I tell you [now] [the time] when I will leave.
Your sentence "Ich bin gegangen wann ich sagte dass ich gehen wuerde",
avoids the "als" of case (b), but is not a correct usage of case (c).
One would not say so.
Helmut Richter |
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| Peter T. Daniels |
| Posted: Tue May 10, 2005 7:00 am |
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Helmut Richter wrote:
[quote:477ea9c74c]The trick is the usage of "wann". For the English word "when", there are
three German translations:
a) wenn: the conjunction "when" in present or future tense and when it is
synonymous to "if"
b) als: the conjunction "when" in past tense
c) wann: the interrogative "when?" and the conjunction that plays its rôle
("when" as abbreviation of "the answer to the question 'when?'")
[/quote:477ea9c74c]
"Wahn, wahn, überall wahn."
[quote:477ea9c74c]Ich sage es dir, wenn ich gehe. = I'll tell you [then] when I leave.
Ich sage dir, wann ich gehe. = I tell you [now] [the time] when I will leave.
Your sentence "Ich bin gegangen wann ich sagte dass ich gehen wuerde",
avoids the "als" of case (b), but is not a correct usage of case (c).
One would not say so.
--[/quote:477ea9c74c]
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net |
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