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Science Forum Index » Philosophy Forum » The Demon and the Mathematical Object
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| John Jones |
 Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2004 1:20 pm |
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A certain demon in the Devils kingdom was a collector of objects that people
valued, of things a person needed and treasured that upon a moments
forgetfulness, or from a glance aside, was snatched by the demon and thrown
upon a mound. This mound was open to all, no barriers were raised against
those who wished to sift through it for their personal objects. However, so
vast was this mound that simply by placing an object upon it, it became lost
immediately. No search could be undertaken for the snatched treasure, as no
matter how close a person came to their object, an infinite number of other
objects, all different, one from the other, presented themselves before it.
One day, in the classroom, Henrietta had forgotten the numeral 5 in her
count to ten. Immediately, the demon snatched the numeral 5 and placed it
upon the mound. Her teacher told her that she had forgotten the number 5 in
her count. She asked where it was that she had lost it, and he said at the
fifth position. So Henrietta looked five times upon the mound and so picked
up the number, but not the numeral.
JJ |
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| Dare |
| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 8:45 am |
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"John Jones" <john.jones53@tesco.net> wrote
Quote: So Henrietta looked five times upon the mound and so picked
up the number, but not the numeral.
JJ
I learned a lot from that story, thank you.
(Maybe Henrietta should fire her teacher and
rise up and follow you after all.  )
This really sparked my interest....
I'm curious about the Demon's infinite mound of objects.
I imagined a scanario in which the Devil took a fit of pique
and ordered the demon to return 'all' the snatched objects,
each to the person from whom he snatched it.
Would Henrietta recieve back her numeral 5?
Can I lend Henrietta the numeral 5 off my mailbox?
If the 'infinite number' of objects were returned,
would the infinite mound be empty?
I think that demon stole my ?, and I can't find
my ? either....I need at least one of them back! :-)
Sorry, seems I'm babbling now.
(Now?)
Thanks,
Dare
"John Jones" <john.jones53@tesco.net> wrote
Quote: A certain demon in the Devils kingdom was a collector of objects that people
valued, of things a person needed and treasured that upon a moments
forgetfulness, or from a glance aside, was snatched by the demon and thrown
upon a mound. This mound was open to all, no barriers were raised against
those who wished to sift through it for their personal objects. However, so
vast was this mound that simply by placing an object upon it, it became lost
immediately. No search could be undertaken for the snatched treasure, as no
matter how close a person came to their object, an infinite number of other
objects, all different, one from the other, presented themselves before it.
One day, in the classroom, Henrietta had forgotten the numeral 5 in her
count to ten. Immediately, the demon snatched the numeral 5 and placed it
upon the mound. Her teacher told her that she had forgotten the number 5 in
her count. She asked where it was that she had lost it, and he said at the
fifth position. So Henrietta looked five times upon the mound and so picked
up the number, but not the numeral.
JJ
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| Dare |
| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 9:01 am |
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"Dare" <clydadare@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:bt3slu$1q2b$1@news3.infoave.net...
Quote:
I think that demon stole my ?, and I can't find
my ? either....I need at least one of them back!
Darn!
The ?'s were supposed to be mathematical symbols..
the first the symbol for 'pi' and second the symbol for 'infinity'
Guess it didn't go through correctly.
There's probably a lesson in there, too.
sorry,
Dare |
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| mia.sarosi01 |
| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 2:09 pm |
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"John Jones" <john.jones53@tesco.net> wrote in message
news:bt2a0l$535$1@sparta.btinternet.com...
Quote: A certain demon in the Devils kingdom was a collector of objects that
people
valued, of things a person needed and treasured that upon a moments
forgetfulness, or from a glance aside, was snatched by the demon and
thrown
upon a mound. This mound was open to all, no barriers were raised against
those who wished to sift through it for their personal objects. However,
so
vast was this mound that simply by placing an object upon it, it became
lost
immediately. No search could be undertaken for the snatched treasure, as
no
matter how close a person came to their object, an infinite number of
other
objects, all different, one from the other, presented themselves before
it.
One day, in the classroom, Henrietta had forgotten the numeral 5 in her
count to ten. Immediately, the demon snatched the numeral 5 and placed it
upon the mound. Her teacher told her that she had forgotten the number 5
in
her count. She asked where it was that she had lost it, and he said at the
fifth position. So Henrietta looked five times upon the mound and so
picked
up the number, but not the numeral.
JJ
How did the teacher know that she had forgotten the number 5?The numbers
form a 'devilish' mound... there are an infinite number of them, all
different from one another, so how does she know when one of them is
missing?
Mia |
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| John Jones |
| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 3:08 pm |
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Quote: I think that demon stole my ?, and I can't find
my ? either....I need at least one of them back!
But you are right of course- if we cannot say what we have lost, how can we
undertake a search?
We have to rely on someone else to tell us what to look for.
But then what we are told to look for might as well be any object upon the
mound - we would not recognise what any one object on the mound was meant to
signify from what any other object on the mound was meant to signify. This
is because the objects on the mound are signs, and we are not told what the
signs signify. And, as signs, the objects on the mound have no order
whatsoever. Therefore the number 5 is not found upon the mound, but the
numeral 5 is found upon the mound-, but the numeral 5 does not necessarily
signify the 'number' 5. The number 5 is signified by how many times we look
upon the mound, and our count is aided in this way -each time we look upon
the mound, any object upon that mound would be significant for our count,
that is, we could use any sign at all for a count. So we don't need to
retrieve the numeral 5 to count 5 times.
Henrietta understood mathematics but merely forgot the signs that were in
general use.
JJ
"Dare" <clydadare@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bt3tjr$1qmv$1@news3.infoave.net...
Quote: "Dare" <clydadare@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bt3slu$1q2b$1@news3.infoave.net...
I think that demon stole my ?, and I can't find
my ? either....I need at least one of them back! :-)
Darn!
The ?'s were supposed to be mathematical symbols..
the first the symbol for 'pi' and second the symbol for 'infinity'
Guess it didn't go through correctly.
There's probably a lesson in there, too.
sorry,
Dare
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| John Jones |
| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 3:19 pm |
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Quote: How did the teacher know that she had forgotten the number 5?The numbers
form a 'devilish' mound... there are an infinite number of them, all
different from one another, so how does she know when one of them is
missing?
Henrietta was 'told' that 5 was missing. But she DID make the (mathematical)
count of 5 correctly. She merely used different numerals, or signs, when she
omitted the numeral or sign called 5, when she made and communicated her
count. So the teacher could not say that she made an arithmetical mistake.
Henrietta merely forgot a sign, not a number. Henrietta's teacher was wrong
to say that she had forgotten the 'number 5'. He should have said that she
had forgotten to communicate the 'numeral 5'-, and that is not a
mathematical error!
JJ
"mia.sarosi01" <bogus@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:%SjJb.362$lR1.799388@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net...
Quote:
"John Jones" <john.jones53@tesco.net> wrote in message
news:bt2a0l$535$1@sparta.btinternet.com...
A certain demon in the Devils kingdom was a collector of objects that
people
valued, of things a person needed and treasured that upon a moments
forgetfulness, or from a glance aside, was snatched by the demon and
thrown
upon a mound. This mound was open to all, no barriers were raised
against
those who wished to sift through it for their personal objects. However,
so
vast was this mound that simply by placing an object upon it, it became
lost
immediately. No search could be undertaken for the snatched treasure, as
no
matter how close a person came to their object, an infinite number of
other
objects, all different, one from the other, presented themselves before
it.
One day, in the classroom, Henrietta had forgotten the numeral 5 in her
count to ten. Immediately, the demon snatched the numeral 5 and placed
it
upon the mound. Her teacher told her that she had forgotten the number 5
in
her count. She asked where it was that she had lost it, and he said at
the
fifth position. So Henrietta looked five times upon the mound and so
picked
up the number, but not the numeral.
JJ
How did the teacher know that she had forgotten the number 5?The numbers
form a 'devilish' mound... there are an infinite number of them, all
different from one another, so how does she know when one of them is
missing?
Mia
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