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Author Message
calderhome@yahoo.com
Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 6:01 pm
Guest
Here's another appalling aspect of the immoral biofuel business. I
call it "immoral" because it is a sin to starve people in order to
feed cars and trucks.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/apr/01/biofuels.energy

Demands for crackdown on biofuels scam - US 'splash and dash' loophole
undermines climate change fight

Terry Macalister - The Guardian, Tuesday

The EU is being urged to take action to stop a biofuel trading scam
that exploits US agricultural subsidies and undermines the fight
against global warming.
Up to 10% of biofuel exports from the US to Europe are believed to be
part of the rogue scheme reaping big profits for agricultural trading
firms.

The "splash and dash" scam involves shipping biodiesel from Europe to
the US where a dash of fuel is added, allowing traders to claim 11p a
litre of US subsidy for the entire cargo. It is then shipped back and
sold below domestic prices, undercutting Europe's biofuel industry.

The trade is not illegal, but flouts the spirit of producing green
fuel by transporting it needlessly across the Atlantic at a time when
campaigners are voicing concern about emissions from global shipping.

The producers' body, the European Biodiesel Board, has uncovered the
trade as part of its investigation into why British, German and
Spanish producers are in financial trouble at a time when biodiesel
prices remain high. The board will call for retaliatory action against
the US over subsidies for its leading biofuel.

Biofuels are plant-based oils from crops such as soy and corn. They
are expensive to produce but have become relatively cheaper as the
price of crude oil has risen to more than $100 a barrel. It is
estimated that 10% of the 1m tonnes of biodiesel exported from the US
to Europe is part of the splash and dash trade.

Doug Ward, director of a Scottish biofuel company and British
representative on the board, said a full report on the impact of US
fuels would be finalised within days. It is expected to recommend that
the European commission initiate an anti-dumping action against
Washington for the subsidy. "We could have sold our product cheaper if
we took it over to the US and brought it back," he said. "No one is
doing anything illegal, but environmentally it's a disaster," he said.
The cheap cost of shipping makes the trade profitable for those
involved.

Ian Waller, a biofuel consultant at the firm FiveBarGate said he
visited the southern states of the US last October and spoke to firms
about splash and dash.

"You get the subsidy for the act of blending, so people are bringing
boats of soy or palm-based biodiesel from Europe and then mixing it
with a bit of local biodiesel - or even fossil-fuel diesel - and then
shipping it back," he said. US producers worried about the trade also
call it the U-boat trade because vessels arrive and then almost
immediately return, he said.

Andrew Owens, chief executive of Greenergy, a biofuel supplier part-
owned by Tesco, said his company was doing all it could to eliminate
the rogue practice. "We are rigorous about our supply chain and
careful about where we source bioethanol and biodiesel, but it can
always sneak in if we have to buy a one-off cargo in Rotterdam to fill
a gap ... We try and avoid splash and dash at all costs," he said.

The European Biodiesel Board has been encouraged to act against
subsidised US exports of biofuel because Britain and other European
countries have complained that their industries are being destroyed.
Producers are concerned the US is flooding the market with subsidised
fuel when facilities are standing empty in Germany. D1 Oils, a
Teesside-based biofuel business, is considering halving its workforce
due to the problems caused by US imports.

A competitor, Biofuels Corporation, was taken off the stock market
after suffering its own problems, but BP said it was pressing ahead
with a biobutanol plant at Hull in cooperation with Associated British
Foods.

In a fortnight Britain will introduce demands that 2.5% of all petrol
and diesel is made up of non-carbon fuels. The rules will require
companies to provide information about sourcing their biodiesel,
potentially cutting out splash and dash.

------------

For the full story of the biofuel disaster, see
http://home.att.net/~meditation/bio-fuel-hoax.html

Christopher Calder
Bob Eld
Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:51 am
Guest
<calderhome@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:461a7fe7-d904-4955-9306-9d7a7a5a2991@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Quote:
Here's another appalling aspect of the immoral biofuel business. I
call it "immoral" because it is a sin to starve people in order to
feed cars and trucks.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/apr/01/biofuels.energy

Demands for crackdown on biofuels scam - US 'splash and dash' loophole
undermines climate change fight

Terry Macalister - The Guardian, Tuesday

The EU is being urged to take action to stop a biofuel trading scam
that exploits US agricultural subsidies and undermines the fight
against global warming.
Up to 10% of biofuel exports from the US to Europe are believed to be
part of the rogue scheme reaping big profits for agricultural trading
firms.

The "splash and dash" scam involves shipping biodiesel from Europe to
the US where a dash of fuel is added, allowing traders to claim 11p a
litre of US subsidy for the entire cargo. It is then shipped back and
sold below domestic prices, undercutting Europe's biofuel industry.

The trade is not illegal, but flouts the spirit of producing green
fuel by transporting it needlessly across the Atlantic at a time when
campaigners are voicing concern about emissions from global shipping.

The producers' body, the European Biodiesel Board, has uncovered the
trade as part of its investigation into why British, German and
Spanish producers are in financial trouble at a time when biodiesel
prices remain high. The board will call for retaliatory action against
the US over subsidies for its leading biofuel.

Biofuels are plant-based oils from crops such as soy and corn. They
are expensive to produce but have become relatively cheaper as the
price of crude oil has risen to more than $100 a barrel. It is
estimated that 10% of the 1m tonnes of biodiesel exported from the US
to Europe is part of the splash and dash trade.

Doug Ward, director of a Scottish biofuel company and British
representative on the board, said a full report on the impact of US
fuels would be finalised within days. It is expected to recommend that
the European commission initiate an anti-dumping action against
Washington for the subsidy. "We could have sold our product cheaper if
we took it over to the US and brought it back," he said. "No one is
doing anything illegal, but environmentally it's a disaster," he said.
The cheap cost of shipping makes the trade profitable for those
involved.

Ian Waller, a biofuel consultant at the firm FiveBarGate said he
visited the southern states of the US last October and spoke to firms
about splash and dash.

"You get the subsidy for the act of blending, so people are bringing
boats of soy or palm-based biodiesel from Europe and then mixing it
with a bit of local biodiesel - or even fossil-fuel diesel - and then
shipping it back," he said. US producers worried about the trade also
call it the U-boat trade because vessels arrive and then almost
immediately return, he said.

Andrew Owens, chief executive of Greenergy, a biofuel supplier part-
owned by Tesco, said his company was doing all it could to eliminate
the rogue practice. "We are rigorous about our supply chain and
careful about where we source bioethanol and biodiesel, but it can
always sneak in if we have to buy a one-off cargo in Rotterdam to fill
a gap ... We try and avoid splash and dash at all costs," he said.

The European Biodiesel Board has been encouraged to act against
subsidised US exports of biofuel because Britain and other European
countries have complained that their industries are being destroyed.
Producers are concerned the US is flooding the market with subsidised
fuel when facilities are standing empty in Germany. D1 Oils, a
Teesside-based biofuel business, is considering halving its workforce
due to the problems caused by US imports.

A competitor, Biofuels Corporation, was taken off the stock market
after suffering its own problems, but BP said it was pressing ahead
with a biobutanol plant at Hull in cooperation with Associated British
Foods.

In a fortnight Britain will introduce demands that 2.5% of all petrol
and diesel is made up of non-carbon fuels. The rules will require
companies to provide information about sourcing their biodiesel,
potentially cutting out splash and dash.

------------

For the full story of the biofuel disaster, see
http://home.att.net/~meditation/bio-fuel-hoax.html

Christopher Calder

This is a condemnation of certain business practices like dumping, splash
and dash and taking unfair advantage of subsidies. It is not a condemnation
of biofuels per se. If anything it a plea for more regulation and control of
business that has used the acceleration of fuel prices and policies to
unfair advantage.

Biofuels are here to stay and no amount of nay saying and sky is falling,
they're starving in India crapola is going to change it. Biofuels will
become a significant portion of our energy supplies as we move into the
future. You can't stop it.
David Morgan (MAMS)
Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:13 pm
Guest
"Bob Eld" <nsmontassoc@yahoo.com> wrote

Quote:
Biofuels are here to stay and no amount of nay saying and sky is falling,
they're starving in India crapola is going to change it. Biofuels will
become a significant portion of our energy supplies as we move into the
future. You can't stop it.


Bio fuels are a joke... they will never comprise a significant portion of
demand. The earth could be on battery and electric transportation within
10 years if the petrochemical companies would stop withholding their
profits and remaining greedy for more, and the automobile manufacturers
would get on board instead of thriving off of the kickback profits from oil.

But gee, to do that, they would have to give up their ownership of the US Govt..
Jesse
Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:34 pm
Guest
Quote:

Bio fuels are a joke... they will never comprise a significant portion of
demand. The earth could be on battery and electric transportation within
10 years if the petrochemical companies would stop withholding their
profits and remaining greedy for more, and the automobile manufacturers
would get on board instead of thriving off of the kickback profits from oil.

But gee, to do that, they would have to give up their ownership of the US Govt..

Yes they are a joke, but the pandering to wrongheaded Bio pushers is
also part of the govt problem. We ask govt to get involved in energy or
anything else, it's likely to get AFU.
David Morgan (MAMS)
Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:48 pm
Guest
"Jesse" <jess225107nospam@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:MevIj.14832$oE1.8211@trndny09...
Quote:


Bio fuels are a joke... they will never comprise a significant portion of
demand. The earth could be on battery and electric transportation within
10 years if the petrochemical companies would stop withholding their
profits and remaining greedy for more, and the automobile manufacturers
would get on board instead of thriving off of the kickback profits from oil.

But gee, to do that, they would have to give up their ownership of the US Govt..

Yes they are a joke, but the pandering to wrongheaded Bio pushers is
also part of the govt problem. We ask govt to get involved in energy or
anything else, it's likely to get AFU.


Too late... energy OWNS the US Government... it's already all FU.

Who killed the electric car? George W. Bush and big oil.
Eric
Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:23 pm
Guest
David Morgan (MAMS) wrote:

Quote:

"Jesse" <jess225107nospam@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:MevIj.14832$oE1.8211@trndny09...


Bio fuels are a joke... they will never comprise a significant portion of
demand. The earth could be on battery and electric transportation within
10 years if the petrochemical companies would stop withholding their
profits and remaining greedy for more, and the automobile manufacturers
would get on board instead of thriving off of the kickback profits from
oil.

But gee, to do that, they would have to give up their ownership of the US
Govt..

Yes they are a joke, but the pandering to wrongheaded Bio pushers is
also part of the govt problem. We ask govt to get involved in energy or
anything else, it's likely to get AFU.


Too late... energy OWNS the US Government... it's already all FU.

Who killed the electric car? George W. Bush and big oil.

How did he kill the electric car?
David Morgan (MAMS)
Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:41 pm
Guest
"Eric" <Scorpus@gordinator.org> wrote in message news:JpCdnY3o7NYsFm_anZ2dnUVZ_jednZ2d@comcast.com...
Quote:
David Morgan (MAMS) wrote:


"Jesse" <jess225107nospam@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:MevIj.14832$oE1.8211@trndny09...


Bio fuels are a joke... they will never comprise a significant portion of
demand. The earth could be on battery and electric transportation within
10 years if the petrochemical companies would stop withholding their
profits and remaining greedy for more, and the automobile manufacturers
would get on board instead of thriving off of the kickback profits from
oil.

But gee, to do that, they would have to give up their ownership of the US
Govt..

Yes they are a joke, but the pandering to wrongheaded Bio pushers is
also part of the govt problem. We ask govt to get involved in energy or
anything else, it's likely to get AFU.

Too late... energy OWNS the US Government... it's already all FU.

Who killed the electric car? George W. Bush and big oil.


Quote:
How did he kill the electric car?


Aw c'mon.... Wink Look it up...

By using the Federal Government to sue the state of California to drop it's
*successful* law suit against automobile manufacturers requiring them
to build emission-free vehicles.

Actually... there's a quite good 2006 documentary by the same name... probably
available in a streaming fashion at one of the many video websites... certainly
available at Blockbuster or retail stores. See the preview here:

http://www.sonyclassics.com/whokilledtheelectriccar/


More:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Killed_the_Electric_Car%3F

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0489037/

http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/223/

http://www.ev1.org/


Auto manufacturers failed to promote the cars after building them, and
actually supported articles against them. The EV-1 was touted as a
miracle of technology, but the manufacturers intentionally used less
than optimal and dangerous batteries rather than the latest technology
that was available at the time.
http://www.time.com/time/specials/2007/article/0,28804,1658545_1658544_1658535,00.html




PS:
By the way.... they get a good laugh in the film at the expense and infrastructure
required for hydrogen fuel alternatives.... it's one of the big MIS-directions that
GWB used for killing the electric car.
Bob Eld
Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 3:26 pm
Guest
"David Morgan (MAMS)" <findme@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in message
news:DXuIj.5828$A87.4840@trnddc06...
Quote:

"Bob Eld" <nsmontassoc@yahoo.com> wrote

Biofuels are here to stay and no amount of nay saying and sky is
falling,
they're starving in India crapola is going to change it. Biofuels will
become a significant portion of our energy supplies as we move into the
future. You can't stop it.


Bio fuels are a joke... they will never comprise a significant portion of
demand. The earth could be on battery and electric transportation within
10 years if the petrochemical companies would stop withholding their
profits and remaining greedy for more, and the automobile manufacturers
would get on board instead of thriving off of the kickback profits from
oil.

But gee, to do that, they would have to give up their ownership of the US
Govt..


HA HA! some joke. The real joke is sending a billion dollars a DAY to the
Middle East to buy their oil. Who's the sucker? Think about it the next time
you fill your tank.
Eric Gisin
Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 3:44 pm
Guest
"David Morgan (MAMS)" <findme@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in message
news:jsvIj.5833$A87.5163@trnddc06...
Quote:

"Jesse" <jess225107nospam@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:MevIj.14832$oE1.8211@trndny09...
Yes they are a joke, but the pandering to wrongheaded Bio pushers is
also part of the govt problem. We ask govt to get involved in energy or
anything else, it's likely to get AFU.


Too late... energy OWNS the US Government... it's already all FU.

8' tall lizard people like the Queen and Kissinger.


Quote:
Who killed the electric car? George W. Bush and big oil.

The electric car was not viable in the 90s, no batteries would last even 5 years.

Who Killed the Electric Car is another mindless conspiracy theory from the loony left.
David Morgan (MAMS)
Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:15 pm
Guest
"Bob Eld" <nsmontassoc@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:3UwIj.24363$Ej5.17433@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
Quote:

"David Morgan (MAMS)" <findme@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in message
news:DXuIj.5828$A87.4840@trnddc06...

"Bob Eld" <nsmontassoc@yahoo.com> wrote

Biofuels are here to stay and no amount of nay saying and sky is
falling,
they're starving in India crapola is going to change it. Biofuels will
become a significant portion of our energy supplies as we move into the
future. You can't stop it.


Bio fuels are a joke... they will never comprise a significant portion of
demand. The earth could be on battery and electric transportation within
10 years if the petrochemical companies would stop withholding their
profits and remaining greedy for more, and the automobile manufacturers
would get on board instead of thriving off of the kickback profits from oil.

But gee, to do that, they would have to give up their ownership of the US
Govt..

HA HA! some joke. The real joke is sending a billion dollars a DAY to the
Middle East to buy their oil. Who's the sucker? Think about it the next time
you fill your tank.


I agree completely... but I'm more angry at the windfall profits the oil companies
are making by gouging us in the pocketbook. Although the real joke is sending
hundreds of billions a year to support the military machines of Pakistan and Israel
so we can keep stealing the oil.
Jesse
Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:51 pm
Guest
Quote:
I agree completely... but I'm more angry at the windfall profits the oil companies
are making by gouging us in the pocketbook. Although the real joke is sending
hundreds of billions a year to support the military machines of Pakistan and Israel
so we can keep stealing the oil.

Nothing stops you from buying oil company stock or oil futures.
Eric
Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:16 pm
Guest
David Morgan (MAMS) wrote:

Quote:

"Eric" <Scorpus@gordinator.org> wrote in message
news:JpCdnY3o7NYsFm_anZ2dnUVZ_jednZ2d@comcast.com...
David Morgan (MAMS) wrote:


"Jesse" <jess225107nospam@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:MevIj.14832$oE1.8211@trndny09...


Bio fuels are a joke... they will never comprise a significant portion
of
demand. The earth could be on battery and electric transportation
within 10 years if the petrochemical companies would stop withholding
their profits and remaining greedy for more, and the automobile
manufacturers would get on board instead of thriving off of the
kickback profits from oil.

But gee, to do that, they would have to give up their ownership of the
US Govt..

Yes they are a joke, but the pandering to wrongheaded Bio pushers is
also part of the govt problem. We ask govt to get involved in energy or
anything else, it's likely to get AFU.

Too late... energy OWNS the US Government... it's already all FU.

Who killed the electric car? George W. Bush and big oil.


How did he kill the electric car?


Aw c'mon.... Wink Look it up...

By using the Federal Government to sue the state of California to drop it's
*successful* law suit against automobile manufacturers requiring them
to build emission-free vehicles.

Actually... there's a quite good 2006 documentary by the same name...
probably available in a streaming fashion at one of the many video
websites... certainly
available at Blockbuster or retail stores. See the preview here:

http://www.sonyclassics.com/whokilledtheelectriccar/


More:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Killed_the_Electric_Car%3F

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0489037/

http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/223/

http://www.ev1.org/


Auto manufacturers failed to promote the cars after building them, and
actually supported articles against them. The EV-1 was touted as a
miracle of technology, but the manufacturers intentionally used less
than optimal and dangerous batteries rather than the latest technology
that was available at the time.

http://www.time.com/time/specials/2007/article/0,28804,1658545_1658544_1658535,00.html




PS:
By the way.... they get a good laugh in the film at the expense and
infrastructure required for hydrogen fuel alternatives.... it's one of the
big MIS-directions that GWB used for killing the electric car.

Hmm, so you base your belief on a movie designed for entertainment?
The electric car will become a common item if and only if it is economically
viable. Battery life is really important as is initial cost and range. also,
if it looks like some kind of wild eyed sci fi toy no one is going to buy it.
You seem to think all our problems are caused by "big oil" but from what i
can see the root cause is more the environmental lobby and their completely
insane goals of regulating things out of existence.
Why have we not built a new refinery in 30 years?
Why are we not drilling in ANWR?
Why was the water shut off in the Klamath River basin?
What is a Delta Smelt and how is it depriving some 25 million Californians of
irrigation water?
What is DDT and how many people did it kill? Bonus points: What is malaria and
how many people does it kill each and every year?
Who is making the profit from big oil? Hint "The saudi's and similar places
(Dubai, kuwait etc)"
How much is a gallon of gas in Venezuela? in Ryad? in Houston? in Sacramento?
(see the connection there?)
What is driving up the price of crude? Hint "skyrocketing demand from China
and India"
What happens to the price of a gallon of milk if the total market is 10 people
but the total supply is only 9 gallons, what if the supply is only 4 gallons?
What happens to the price of food when a significant portion of our crop lands
are replanted to grow biofuel instead of food? (and no, they wont convert
parking lots to grow biofuel)
Eric
Eric
Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:31 pm
Guest
David Morgan (MAMS) wrote:

Quote:

"Bob Eld" <nsmontassoc@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3UwIj.24363$Ej5.17433@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...

"David Morgan (MAMS)" <findme@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in message
news:DXuIj.5828$A87.4840@trnddc06...

"Bob Eld" <nsmontassoc@yahoo.com> wrote

Biofuels are here to stay and no amount of nay saying and sky is
falling,
they're starving in India crapola is going to change it. Biofuels will
become a significant portion of our energy supplies as we move into the
future. You can't stop it.


Bio fuels are a joke... they will never comprise a significant portion of
demand. The earth could be on battery and electric transportation within
10 years if the petrochemical companies would stop withholding their
profits and remaining greedy for more, and the automobile manufacturers
would get on board instead of thriving off of the kickback profits from
oil.

But gee, to do that, they would have to give up their ownership of the US
Govt..

HA HA! some joke. The real joke is sending a billion dollars a DAY to the
Middle East to buy their oil. Who's the sucker? Think about it the next
time you fill your tank.


I agree completely... but I'm more angry at the windfall profits the oil
companies
are making by gouging us in the pocketbook. Although the real joke is
sending hundreds of billions a year to support the military machines of
Pakistan and Israel so we can keep stealing the oil.

So, then support that Dem senator who wants to add a 50 cent tax on gasoline.
Yeah, good idea, that will surely get back at those mean old oil companies.
No, what will happen is the price will just go up 50 cents.
Who is screwing us is the environmental lobby, they are regulating the oil
companies right out of existence along with a lot of other things.
Start writing your state and fed congress people demanding they drop the state
and federal taxes on gasoline and diesel. Demand they make it economically
feasible to build more refineries. Demand they start building new Nuclear
power plants.
Or you can just go on and stick to the notion that you're some kind of victim
of "big oil" and the evil republicans.
Eric
Bob Eld
Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:03 pm
Guest
"David Morgan (MAMS)" <findme@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in message
news:eCxIj.11394$p97.9844@trnddc03...
Quote:

"Bob Eld" <nsmontassoc@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3UwIj.24363$Ej5.17433@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...

"David Morgan (MAMS)" <findme@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in message
news:DXuIj.5828$A87.4840@trnddc06...

"Bob Eld" <nsmontassoc@yahoo.com> wrote

Biofuels are here to stay and no amount of nay saying and sky is
falling,
they're starving in India crapola is going to change it. Biofuels
will
become a significant portion of our energy supplies as we move into
the
future. You can't stop it.


Bio fuels are a joke... they will never comprise a significant portion
of
demand. The earth could be on battery and electric transportation
within
10 years if the petrochemical companies would stop withholding their
profits and remaining greedy for more, and the automobile
manufacturers
would get on board instead of thriving off of the kickback profits
from oil.

But gee, to do that, they would have to give up their ownership of the
US
Govt..

HA HA! some joke. The real joke is sending a billion dollars a DAY to
the
Middle East to buy their oil. Who's the sucker? Think about it the next
time
you fill your tank.


I agree completely... but I'm more angry at the windfall profits the oil
companies
are making by gouging us in the pocketbook. Although the real joke is
sending
hundreds of billions a year to support the military machines of Pakistan
and Israel
so we can keep stealing the oil.

Yep, windfall profits should be taxed at a progressively higher rate and tax
incentives should not be given to big oil at a time of record profits. Talk
about welfare for the rich!

The military issue is a big one, especially nearly a trillion squandered in
Iraq. But none of this has much to do with alternative energy and biofuels.
You may think them a joke but I think they offer great promise to help get
us out of sending our national treasure to Saudi Arabia and elsewhere. That
is an absolutely absurd situation we should never have gotten ourselves
into.
bill
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:22 pm
Guest
On Apr 1, 11:03 pm, "Bob Eld" <nsmontas...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Quote:
"David Morgan (MAMS)" <fin...@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in messagenews:eCxIj.11394$p97.9844@trnddc03...

"Bob Eld" <nsmontas...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:3UwIj.24363$Ej5.17433@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...





"David Morgan (MAMS)" <fin...@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in message
news:DXuIj.5828$A87.4840@trnddc06...

"Bob Eld" <nsmontas...@yahoo.com> wrote

Biofuels are here to stay and no amount of nay saying and sky is
falling,
they're starving in India crapola is going to change it. Biofuels
will
become a significant portion of our energy supplies as we move into
the
future. You can't stop it.

Bio fuels are a joke... they will never comprise a significant portion
of
demand. The earth could be on battery and electric transportation
within
10 years if the petrochemical companies would stop withholding their
profits and remaining greedy for more, and the automobile
manufacturers
would get on board instead of thriving off of the kickback profits
from oil.

But gee, to do that, they would have to give up their ownership of the
US
Govt..

HA HA! some joke. The real joke is sending a billion dollars a DAY to
the
Middle East to buy their oil. Who's the sucker? Think about it the next
time
you fill your tank.

I agree completely... but I'm more angry at the windfall profits the oil
companies
are making by gouging us in the pocketbook. Although the real joke is
sending
hundreds of billions a year to support the military machines of Pakistan
and Israel
so we can keep stealing the oil.

Yep, windfall profits should be taxed at a progressively higher rate and tax
incentives should not be given to big oil at a time of record profits. Talk
about welfare for the rich!

The military issue is a big one, especially nearly a trillion squandered in
Iraq. But none of this has much to do with alternative energy and biofuels.
You may think them a joke but I think they offer great promise to help get
us out of sending our national treasure to Saudi Arabia and elsewhere. That
is an absolutely absurd situation we should never have gotten ourselves
into.

Bob, "alternative" fuels ARE going to need to make up an increasing
share of the energy profile. However, crop fuels never will. The
EROEI is not there nor is the available quantity of energy.

What we need to do, and I can show you the numbers to back this, is
build nuclear power plants HELL FOR LEATHER! This will free up a
whole lot of coal, which can then be converted to a liquid fuel for
running cars for a while. This plan buys us 30 years minimum in which
to develop and deploy both battery technology AND solar/wind/nuclear
electric production. What we are doing now (ethanol) legitimately IS
killing people, and more will die.... probably tens of thousands,
before it can be undone. In the meantime, the far east demand is in
fact skyrocketing (to almost 1/4 of european per-capita demand!!) and
there's no new oil production coming online to offset the increasing
demand. This whole thing has nothing to do with "big oil", "greedy
americans", or george fucking bush, it's got to do with hard numbers
in the real world, not political ravings regardless of who is on the
soapbox.

The biggest mistake that has ever been made by humanity is letting
energy become a political issue rather than an engineering one.
 
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