Does anyone know of any experimental evidence giving
the direct observation of radio waves consisting
of "photons"?

Benj schrieb:
Does anyone know of any experimental evidence giving
the direct observation of radio waves consisting
of "photons"?

If you consider microwaves as radio waves,
there are quantum dot detectors which can recognize
single microwave photons.

http://physicsweb.org/articles/news/6/6/1
http://www.wissenschaft-online.de/artikel/593467

everyone pretending it happens, has always seemed to me to be
experimentally suspect.

Polarization experiments with microwaves, even well
below the far infrared tend to work reasonably well, which indicates
to me that light and short wavelength microwaves are very similar if
not the same. Polarization of low frequency radio waves, in spite of
everyone pretending it happens, has always seemed to me to be
experimentally suspect.

Polarization of low frequency radio waves, in spite of
everyone pretending it happens, has always seemed to me to be
experimentally suspect.

Huh?
Ask any ham radio operator.

Mark wrote:
Polarization of low frequency radio waves, in spite of
everyone pretending it happens, has always seemed to me to be
experimentally suspect.

Huh?
Ask any ham radio operator.

Um. Ok. I'll ask myself (WD8ASL). Lessee. I've got this 7 mHz
relatively small antenna. It's a normal mode helix mounted on a nice
long PVC pole. And the question in my mind was how should I mount it?
Does polarization really occur and create THAT much of an effect at
these wavelengths? A normal mode helix has a kind of donut pattern so
if you mount it flat (helix axis vertical) it is more or less an omni
pattern with a null directly overhead. And it matches the presumed
polarization you expect to receive. Mounted vertically however, you
can now rotate the antenna to use the side null to reduce
interference, but according to polarization expected it shouldn't pick
up squat. The actual measured results are it makes virtually NO
difference (except for the noise-nulling thing) which way you mount
it. As far as I've observed diversity radio relying on two
polarizations is mostly a joke as well.

So, is this definitive? Well, hardly. The experiment was NOT
conducted in deep space. There is ground plane of unknown
configurations all over the place. Unknowns crawling up your butt!
Bottom line: You can see polarization effects at microwave frequencies
for sure (Yes I've personally done these experiments) but the results
are not very perfect. With light they are VERY effective (Yeah, I've
done these too) But at low frequencies, data is very suspect. Results
are far form conclusive. And yet everyone seems to make the big leap
of logic that since microwaves can be polarized, therefore we have no
doubts low frequency radio waves are also polarized even though the
data showing such truly stinks.

My view is that until the space shuttle hauls a big roll of wire out
to free space and does a few polarization experiments at 1 mHz, I
remain a bit skeptical. Which of course leads to the next issue:
Namely what in hell does a 1 mHz "photon" look like? What kind of
"particle" is that exactly? How big of a "particle" is it? How long
does it take for the energy in that "photon" to be transferred into a
radio?

You guys see where this is going? It's what a guy I knew always
called, "the elephant on the diving board" [Solving statics problems
like the cantilever by considering extreme cases] There seems to be
one more case here of where a theory that works SO well for high
frequencies is just assumed to fall right down the scale to low
frequencies without proof because, well, it saves a lot of thinking
and work.

Umm, do you think there is perhaps some magic frequency where all of
a sudden photons don't act like photons?

j...@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:

Umm, do you think there is perhaps some magic frequency where all of
a sudden photons don't act like photons?

Umm, that is EXACTLY the question!

The deal goes like this. Tesla believed that radio waves were
longitudinal. T.J.J. See calculated that even light had a longitudinal
component (although very small). As I see it the true test of
longitudinal or transverse is the polarization effect. So yeah, the
question is can someone DEMONSTRATE low frequency polarization, not
just wave hands and say well high frequencies work so well it "proves"
low frequencies are the same. So far I haven't seen any examples that
convince me. Like I said, maybe a roll of wire on the space shuttle
could do it, but I haven't seen that yet either.

Benj

Mark wrote:
Polarization of low frequency radio waves, in spite of
everyone pretending it happens, has always seemed to me to be
experimentally suspect.

Huh?
Ask any ham radio operator.

Um. Ok. I'll ask myself (WD8ASL). Lessee. I've got this 7 mHz
relatively small antenna. It's a normal mode helix mounted on a nice
long PVC pole. And the question in my mind was how should I mount it?
Does polarization really occur and create THAT much of an effect at
these wavelengths? A normal mode helix has a kind of donut pattern so
if you mount it flat (helix axis vertical) it is more or less an omni
pattern with a null directly overhead. And it matches the presumed
polarization you expect to receive. Mounted vertically however, you
can now rotate the antenna to use the side null to reduce
interference, but according to polarization expected it shouldn't pick
up squat. The actual measured results are it makes virtually NO
difference (except for the noise-nulling thing) which way you mount
it.

As far as I've observed diversity radio relying on two
polarizations is mostly a joke as well.

So, is this definitive? Well, hardly. The experiment was NOT
conducted in deep space. There is ground plane of unknown
configurations all over the place. Unknowns crawling up your butt!
Bottom line: You can see polarization effects at microwave frequencies
for sure (Yes I've personally done these experiments) but the results
are not very perfect. With light they are VERY effective (Yeah, I've
done these too) But at low frequencies, data is very suspect. Results
are far form conclusive. And yet everyone seems to make the big leap
of logic that since microwaves can be polarized, therefore we have no
doubts low frequency radio waves are also polarized even though the
data showing such truly stinks.

My view is that until the space shuttle hauls a big roll of wire out
to free space and does a few polarization experiments at 1 mHz, I
remain a bit skeptical. Which of course leads to the next issue:
Namely what in hell does a 1 mHz "photon" look like? What kind of
"particle" is that exactly? How big of a "particle" is it? How long
does it take for the energy in that "photon" to be transferred into a
radio?

You guys see where this is going? It's what a guy I knew always
called, "the elephant on the diving board" [Solving statics problems
like the cantilever by considering extreme cases] There seems to be
one more case here of where a theory that works SO well for high
frequencies is just assumed to fall right down the scale to low
frequencies without proof because, well, it saves a lot of thinking
and work.

"Benj" <bjacoby@iwaynet.net> wrote in message
news:1182563824.001900.260800@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...

Mark wrote:
Polarization of low frequency radio waves, in spite of
everyone pretending it happens, has always seemed to me to be
experimentally suspect.

Huh?
Ask any ham radio operator.

Um. Ok. I'll ask myself (WD8ASL). Lessee. I've got this 7 mHz
relatively small antenna. It's a normal mode helix mounted on a nice
long PVC pole. And the question in my mind was how should I mount it?
Does polarization really occur and create THAT much of an effect at
these wavelengths? A normal mode helix has a kind of donut pattern so
if you mount it flat (helix axis vertical) it is more or less an omni
pattern with a null directly overhead. And it matches the presumed
polarization you expect to receive. Mounted vertically however, you
can now rotate the antenna to use the side null to reduce
interference, but according to polarization expected it shouldn't pick
up squat. The actual measured results are it makes virtually NO
difference (except for the noise-nulling thing) which way you mount
it.

Well, the helical antenna does have, under the right dimensions, true circular
polarization and if not it does approximate circular polarization so what the HELL do you
expect?

What he's describing isn't a helical antenna, it's a helically wound,
continuously loaded, short antenna.

Does anyone know of any experimental evidence giving the direct
observation of radio waves consisting of "photons"?

What I mean is it is well known that light frequency waves are not
continuous waves in space. They are rather limited pulses of energy
both in time and space.

And oh yeah. Just how would one build a radio transmitter that had an
output of just ONE photon per second?

Polarization experiments with microwaves, even well
below the far infrared tend to work reasonably well, which indicates
to me that light and short wavelength microwaves are very similar if
not the same. Polarization of low frequency radio waves, in spite of
everyone pretending it happens, has always seemed to me to be
experimentally suspect.

T.J.J. See calculated that even light had a longitudinal
component (although very small).