Over the weekend CNN aired an interview with and expert on agriculture
-- The subject being eEthanol.

During the interview, he cited the fact that nearly all Ethanol is
today being produced from our domestic corn crop, and in 2006
accounted for 30% of the total corn market, and anticipated that
should the demand for Ethanol continue to grow, it will soon account
for 50% of our domestic corn production.

The result is that the price of a bushel of corn has risen faster than
the price of crude oil, to the extent that it will shortly impact the
price of all corn based food products, including animal feeds and just
about even food sold in supermarkets, from corn flakes and dog food,
to beef, pork and chicken. Consequently, he believe that the cost of
food will begin to outpace the price of Ethanol adulterated gasoline
at the pump.

That's the dark side of Ethanol, reminding us that nothing comes for
free. Something to keep in mind.

Shifting gears, I have seen virtually no alternative fuel discussion
even mention the exploitation of gas hydrides, which are mined from
the seas and, at least according to the Discovery Channel, are capable
of providing massive amounts of energy. It was not made clear how
exactly you would harvest this stuff, or the problems, but it would be
interesting to read informed discussions about whether gas hydrides
are a potionally a viable energy source, or simply like hydrogen, a
product of wishful thinking by non-scientists.

Finally, I have to wonder why Methanol receives very little discussion
in alternative energy group? Methanol, as most of us are aware is
commonly called 'Wood Alcohol' and is generally produced by the
destructive distillation of wood, but it can be produced through the
destructive distillation of many other types of biomass (leaves, plant
stalks, grass clippings, and even weeds.) Also, IIRC, no fermentation
steps are required to produce it, and it is coverted into energy by
burning, just as is Ethanol. Still, rather than having our yard waste
end up in a landfill, wouldn't it be an attractive idea to covert it
into a usable energy source? More discussion is needed on this
subject.

I post this simply because I consider them to be topics worthy of
informed discussion, rather than the sill debates on 'cars that run on
water' and many of the other silly topics posted on this newsgroup
(sci.energy.hydrogen).

Harry C.

Over the weekend CNN aired an interview with and expert on agriculture
-- The subject being eEthanol.

During the interview, he cited the fact that nearly all Ethanol is
today being produced from our domestic corn crop, and in 2006
accounted for 30% of the total corn market, and anticipated that
should the demand for Ethanol continue to grow, it will soon account
for 50% of our domestic corn production.

Shifting gears, I have seen virtually no alternative fuel discussion
even mention the exploitation of gas hydrides, which are mined from
the seas

and, at least according to the Discovery Channel, are capable
of providing massive amounts of energy. It was not made clear how
exactly you would harvest this stuff, or the problems,

hhc...@yahoo.com wrote:
Over the weekend CNN aired an interview with and expert on agriculture
-- The subject being eEthanol.

During the interview, he cited the fact that nearly all Ethanol is
today being produced from our domestic corn crop, and in 2006
accounted for 30% of the total corn market, and anticipated that
should the demand for Ethanol continue to grow, it will soon account
for 50% of our domestic corn production.

Using *corn* extensively to make motor fuel is uniquely daft.

Graham

hhc...@yahoo.com wrote:
Shifting gears, I have seen virtually no alternative fuel discussion
even mention the exploitation of gas hydrides, which are mined from
the seas

ARE mined ?

and, at least according to the Discovery Channel, are capable
of providing massive amounts of energy. It was not made clear how
exactly you would harvest this stuff, or the problems,

Think about where you came across this info.

Graham

Graham, I agree with you. That's precisely why I posted this bit of
television 'documentary'.

If not from corn, where does the vast quantities of Ethanol being
introduce into our gasoline originate?

From Google: "This account (Graham's) has been banned because it
violated the Google Groups Terms Of Use."

hhc...@yahoo.com wrote:
Graham, I agree with you. That's precisely why I posted this bit of
television 'documentary'.

If not from corn, where does the vast quantities of Ethanol being
introduce into our gasoline originate?

It's possible to use any starchy or sugary material.

Using corn is basically a US-only idea, seemingly since there's huge
over-production of it. I guess it's better than selling it as cheap sugar for
the like of fizzy drinks to help make ppl obese.

In the UK, we're using sugar beet. But here, the plant is being / has been
converted now to make bio-butanol instead which is more similar to ordinary
gasoline

The Swedes are working on using wood waste. They have lots of this from their
timber industry.

There are many ways indeed.

I see ethanol and butanol merely as as palliatives not replacement fuels though.

Graham

Graham, I fully agree with you, but when I visit your posting history
I receive a rather stange message from Google:

From Google: "This account (Graham's) has been banned because it
violated the Google Groups Terms Of Use."

Graham, what naughty thing did you do to piss Google off to this
extent?

hhc...@yahoo.com wrote:
Graham, I fully agree with you, but when I visit your posting history
I receive a rather stange message from Google:

From Google: "This account (Graham's) has been banned because it
violated the Google Groups Terms Of Use."

Graham, what naughty thing did you do to piss Google off to this
extent?

I think you must have found something relating to another Graham.

I've almost never posted through Google, I'm not even sure I ever have done actually
although I do have a gmail account. No news provider or ISP has ever banned me either.

Where did you find this ?

Graham

It's the response that Google return when I click on the 'view
profile' for your posts.

hhc...@yahoo.com wrote:
Over the weekend CNN aired an interview with and expert on agriculture
-- The subject being eEthanol.

During the interview, he cited the fact that nearly all Ethanol is
today being produced from our domestic corn crop, and in 2006
accounted for 30% of the total corn market, and anticipated that
should the demand for Ethanol continue to grow, it will soon account
for 50% of our domestic corn production.

The result is that the price of a bushel of corn has risen faster than
the price of crude oil, to the extent that it will shortly impact the
price of all corn based food products, including animal feeds and just
about even food sold in supermarkets, from corn flakes and dog food,
to beef, pork and chicken. Consequently, he believe that the cost of
food will begin to outpace the price of Ethanol adulterated gasoline
at the pump.

That's the dark side of Ethanol, reminding us that nothing comes for
free. Something to keep in mind.

Shifting gears, I have seen virtually no alternative fuel discussion
even mention the exploitation of gas hydrides, which are mined from
the seas and, at least according to the Discovery Channel, are capable
of providing massive amounts of energy. It was not made clear how
exactly you would harvest this stuff, or the problems, but it would be
interesting to read informed discussions about whether gas hydrides
are a potionally a viable energy source, or simply like hydrogen, a
product of wishful thinking by non-scientists.

Finally, I have to wonder why Methanol receives very little discussion
in alternative energy group? Methanol, as most of us are aware is
commonly called 'Wood Alcohol' and is generally produced by the
destructive distillation of wood, but it can be produced through the
destructive distillation of many other types of biomass (leaves, plant
stalks, grass clippings, and even weeds.) Also, IIRC, no fermentation
steps are required to produce it, and it is coverted into energy by
burning, just as is Ethanol. Still, rather than having our yard waste
end up in a landfill, wouldn't it be an attractive idea to covert it
into a usable energy source? More discussion is needed on this
subject.

I post this simply because I consider them to be topics worthy of
informed discussion, rather than the sill debates on 'cars that run on
water' and many of the other silly topics posted on this newsgroup
(sci.energy.hydrogen).

Harry C.

What is really, really sad about all this is that the net energy of
ethanol from corn is either negative or utterly and laughingly
negligible, depending upon who you believe.

Instead, switchgrass which grows wild on marginal lands returns over 7X
and bagasse which returns around 5X are infinitely better candidates as
ethanol feedstock.

Sadly, there is no corporate sponsor for a free growing weed. And the
sugar lobby strictly prohibits importation of bagasse.

Ethanol from corn is monumentally and criminally stupid.

More athttp://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf

--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster voice phone: (928)428-4073
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
rss:http://www.tinaja.com/whtnu.xml email: d...@tinaja.com

Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site athttp://www.tinaja.com- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have absolutely no idea why that might be. As I say, I don't post through Google anyway !

Please don't top-post btw.

Graham"

hhc...@yahoo.com wrote:
It's the response that Google return when I click on the 'view
profile' for your posts.

I see.

I have absolutely no idea why that might be. As I say, I don't post through Google anyway !

Please don't top-post btw.

Graham

The land, machinery, chemicals and talent used to grow bio-fuels is
better used to grow food especially since 40,000 people per day world
wide die of hunger. This could be ended tomoroow if we put only a
tenth of the resources toward that end that we do wasteful stupid
things like ethanol.

A better approach is to use concentrating PV cells to reduce the costs
of solar panels and to use low cost electrolysis to create hydrogen
with 85% efficiency or more..All at a very reasonable cost of $0.09
per peak watt (combied electrolyzer solar collector)

These systems operate best in sunny desert regions, leaving the
farmlands and fields to growing food.

Eeyore wrote:

"> I see.

I have absolutely no idea why that might be. As I say, I don't post through > Google anyway !


Please don't top-post btw.

Graham, I am now bottom posting, but realize that it take a special
cut and paste effort to do this and have the quoted text visible, and
I sometimes do this for a special purporse, but usually only when
responding to long posts on an item by item basis. The default is to
have the original post included in the followup, but concealed. Hence,
today, top posting or bottom posting really makes no difference for
people who have been following a thread.

Regarding the Google alert on your posting profile. I certainly
wouldn't loose any sleep over it. Actually Graham, are you the same
Graham that has been posting to the newsgroup for years under a
different signature? If not, my error.)

And now a bit of history which can be skipped, without any significant
information loss...

Years ago the primitive newsreaders in use made a difference between
top posting and bottom posting, with fans of each style. Today's
newsgreaders such as Google's and many others will conceal the quote
of the original posted to which the followup pertains, unless one acts
to cause it to be displayed. Hence, there is no real reason to
normally differentiate between top posting and bottom posting, nor any
definite preference one over the other.