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| Michael Kuettner |
 Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 2:10 pm |
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Guest
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Since Doug and Searles were talking about Druidism in the Stonehenge thread,
I'd be interested in how "Druidism" is defined in the Anglo-Saxon context.
What are the characteristics ?
From what time onwards are Druids detectable ?
Here on the continent, I can't find more than a loose set of overlappings for
"Druidism".
Were the druids using shafts for deposing the bones of their sacrifices ?
Which animals were sacrificed ?
Did the British Celts keep the heads of their enemies as a trophy ?
Any signs for the adaption of chthonic gods ?
Cheers,
Michael Kuettner |
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| Peter Alaca |
| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 2:28 pm |
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Michael Kuettner wrote: news:ee1gv1$o3b$1@atlas.ip-plus.net
[quote:0f8ba649b8]Since Doug and Searles were talking about Druidism in the Stonehenge
thread, I'd be interested in how "Druidism" is defined in the
Anglo-Saxon context. What are the characteristics ?
From what time onwards are Druids detectable ?
Here on the continent, I can't find more than a loose set of
overlappings for "Druidism".
Were the druids using shafts for deposing the bones of their
sacrifices ? Which animals were sacrificed ?
Did the British Celts keep the heads of their enemies as a trophy ?
Any signs for the adaption of chthonic gods ?
Cheers,
Michael Kuettner
[/quote:0f8ba649b8]
Is there any reason to call anything archaeological "Druid"?
--
p.a. |
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| Michael Kuettner |
| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 3:27 pm |
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"Peter Alaca" <P.Alaca@sep.nn> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:45044b49$1$41151$dbd45001@news.wanadoo.nl...
[quote:5330f02366]Michael Kuettner wrote: news:ee1gv1$o3b$1@atlas.ip-plus.net
Since Doug and Searles were talking about Druidism in the Stonehenge
thread, I'd be interested in how "Druidism" is defined in the
Anglo-Saxon context. What are the characteristics ?
From what time onwards are Druids detectable ?
Here on the continent, I can't find more than a loose set of
overlappings for "Druidism".
Were the druids using shafts for deposing the bones of their
sacrifices ? Which animals were sacrificed ?
Did the British Celts keep the heads of their enemies as a trophy ?
Any signs for the adaption of chthonic gods ?
Cheers,
Michael Kuettner
Is there any reason to call anything archaeological "Druid"?
[/quote:5330f02366]
That's what I'm trying to find out.
Note my ""s around Druidism.
The problems of translation come into play here.
What you understand as "Celts" is different from what Brits understand
by that term. So I'm trying to clear up terminology before tackling the
concept.
Cheers,
Michael Kuettner |
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| Searles O'Dubhain |
| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 3:38 pm |
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"Peter Alaca" <P.Alaca@sep.nn> wrote in message
news:45044b49$1$41151$dbd45001@news.wanadoo.nl...
[quote:f3af1f91e3]Michael Kuettner wrote: news:ee1gv1$o3b$1@atlas.ip-plus.net
Since Doug and Searles were talking about Druidism in the Stonehenge
thread, I'd be interested in how "Druidism" is defined in the
Anglo-Saxon context. What are the characteristics ?
From what time onwards are Druids detectable ?
Here on the continent, I can't find more than a loose set of
overlappings for "Druidism".
Were the druids using shafts for deposing the bones of their
sacrifices ? Which animals were sacrificed ?
Did the British Celts keep the heads of their enemies as a trophy ?
Any signs for the adaption of chthonic gods ?
Cheers,
Michael Kuettner
Is there any reason to call anything archaeological "Druid"?
--
p.a.
[/quote:f3af1f91e3]
I'd say that only those things pertaining to Druids and Celtic religious
practices from archaeological finds should be mentioned in relation to
Druids. Some of these things are ritual sites, votive deposits,
cauldrons, lunula, gold ornaments, Ogham and images of deities/spirits.
Searles O'Dubhain |
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| Searles O'Dubhain |
| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 4:04 pm |
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"Michael Kuettner" <miksbg@eunet.at> wrote in message
news:ee1gv1$o3b$1@atlas.ip-plus.net...
[quote:22716e6c29]
Since Doug and Searles were talking about Druidism in the Stonehenge
thread,
I'd be interested in how "Druidism" is defined in the Anglo-Saxon
context.
[/quote:22716e6c29]
I assume you mean English when you say "Anglo-Saxon" as I only
understand Druidism in a Celtic context. In a Celtic context Druidism
is a term for the practices of the Druids who were the sages, doctors,
lawyers, poets,scientists and philosopher-priests of Celtic societies.
[quote:22716e6c29]What are the characteristics ?
[/quote:22716e6c29]
The answer here is much too long for a simple reply though I may have
more time later.
[quote:22716e6c29]From what time onwards are Druids detectable ?
[/quote:22716e6c29]
The name for Druids or their cognates first appears in the classical
histories of the Greeks and Romans dating back about 2400 years BP.
In Irish traditions, Druids are said to have existed among their deities
in the beginnings of the world. Some medieval Poets attempted to place
this in the time period of about the early 2nd millennium BCE. That
placement would be a mytho-traditional placement and have little in the
archaeological record to certify it though (as can be seen) my
discussion on Stonehenge and Newgrange ranges far beyond that point.
[quote:22716e6c29]Here on the continent, I can't find more than a loose set of
overlappings for
"Druidism".
[/quote:22716e6c29]
Jean Louis Bruneaux wrote a decent treatise on Druids and Druidism in
his work, _The Celtic Gauls_. There is also a book by Francoise :e Roux
and Christian-J, Guyonvarc'h, in French, entitled _:Les Druides_ that
should answer many questions about Druids and Druidism on teh continent.
[quote:22716e6c29]Were the druids using shafts for deposing the bones of their
sacrifices ?
[/quote:22716e6c29]
The ritual center at Gournay certainly demonstrates that this was the
case with nine votive pits. A trench or ditch around the ritual area
also was filled with the bones and remains of the sacrifices. Sites in
the British Isles have been excavated showing this practice of using
pits and trenches was widespread for Druids in Celtic culture.
One such site is on Hayling Island in Hampshire. It's organization and
components give us a pretty good idea of Celtic sanctuary and sacred
space in Britain of the Iron Age:
(The site URL is: http://www.barnarch.u-net.com/Hayling.htm )
"The architecture of the temple is clearly designed to enhance the
differentiation of the sacred site from the surrounding area (cf Webster
1995), and as such the outer enclosure formed the most significant
element of the complex and may have formed the nemeton in Celtic
parlance (Piggott 1978). The inner enclosure appears to have served
primarily as an additional form of differentiation within the enclosure,
cutting off what was probably the main ritual area from the rest of the
temple. The pit seems to have been the focus. Deposition, on the other
hand, was carried out in specific zones of the site, notably on the
south side, i.e. the left-hand side for worshippers approaching the
temple and its focus from the entrance on the east side. This zonation
may perhaps be linked with allusions by Poseidonius (quoted in Athenaeus
IV,152D) to Celts paying respect to the gods by turning to the right
(Webster 1995:460), apparently indicating a spatially significant
element to ritual practice, that perhaps also had its counterparts in
everyday life (Fitzpatrick 1994). If Poseidonius is taken literally, it
could be that sacrificial actions took place on the right-hand
(northerly) side of the enclosure, whilst the deposition of the votive
remains took place on the left-hand side. Clearly the act of deposition
was important during the making of votive offerings, and for Hayling
Island (but not all Iron Age temples, e.g. Gournay) the locus of these
actions was mainly in a particular south-easterly zone within the
enclosure."
The south-easterly zone is where the House of Donn is in relation to
Ireland. Perhaps this is a case of a country, sanctuaries and homes all
taking their structure from the sacred cosmology? If that's true for
Iron Age Celts, it would place them squarely in agreement with temple
and sacred space/sanctuary organization for other Indo-European people.
[quote:22716e6c29]Which animals were sacrificed ?
[/quote:22716e6c29]
It is said that pigs, cows, bulls, dogs, people and boars, were offered
as sacrifices in Druid ritual.
[quote:22716e6c29]Did the British Celts keep the heads of their enemies as a trophy ?
[/quote:22716e6c29]
There are stories of this happening in Welsh and Irish traditions.
[quote:22716e6c29]Any signs for the adaption of chthonic gods ?
[/quote:22716e6c29]
There is Donn, the Lord of the Dead in Irish traditions and his cognate
Gwyn ap Nudd in Welsh mythology.Metrical Dindshenchas has a tale about
Crom who was said to be a god that demanded human sacrifice and was
symbolized in a stone circle which was decorated with gold and silver
adornments for the stones. St. Patrick is said to have taken a
sledgehammer to these stones in one of the legends associated with him.
[quote:22716e6c29]
Cheers,
Michael Kuettner
[/quote:22716e6c29]
Hope this added some information and understanding for you,
Searles O'Dubhain |
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| Doug Weller |
| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 4:41 pm |
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On Sun, 10 Sep 2006 14:04:05 -0500, in sci.archaeology, Searles O'Dubhain
wrote:
[SNIP]
[quote:8fd22efb35]
The name for Druids or their cognates first appears in the classical
histories of the Greeks and Romans dating back about 2400 years BP.
[/quote:8fd22efb35]
Ronald Hutton's The Pagan Religions of the Ancient British Isles says that
virtually all the Roman and Greek texts that discuss Celtic religion date
from about 150BC to AD 100, most referring only to the tribes of southern
Gaul, modern Provence and Languedoc.
So what are you referring to?
Doug
--
Doug Weller --
A Director and Moderator of The Hall of Ma'at http://www.hallofmaat.com
Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.co.uk
Amun - co-owner/co-moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Amun/ |
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| Searles O'Dubhain |
| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 6:06 pm |
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Make that 5th century BCE for Abaris in Athens to study with Pythagoras.
Searles |
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| Peter Alaca |
| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 6:46 pm |
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Searles O'Dubhain wrote:
news:_bCdnY0STMYpxpnYnZ2dnUVZ_sKdnZ2d@comcast.com
[quote:645b23b1e6]"Peter Alaca" <P.Alaca@sep.nn> wrote in message
news:45044b49$1$41151$dbd45001@news.wanadoo.nl...
Michael Kuettner wrote: news:ee1gv1$o3b$1@atlas.ip-plus.net
Since Doug and Searles were talking about Druidism in the Stonehenge
thread, I'd be interested in how "Druidism" is defined in the
Anglo-Saxon context. What are the characteristics ?
From what time onwards are Druids detectable ?
Here on the continent, I can't find more than a loose set of
overlappings for "Druidism".
Were the druids using shafts for deposing the bones of their
sacrifices ? Which animals were sacrificed ?
Did the British Celts keep the heads of their enemies as a trophy ?
Any signs for the adaption of chthonic gods ?
Is there any reason to call anything archaeological "Druid"?
I'd say that only those things pertaining to Druids and Celtic
religious practices from archaeological finds should be mentioned
in relation to Druids. Some of these things are ritual sites, votive
deposits, cauldrons, lunula, gold ornaments, Ogham and images
of deities/spirits.
[/quote:645b23b1e6]
You are using circular arguments.
The questions to answer are:
- What druids were.
- When they lived
- Where they lived
- What their exclusive attributes were.
--
p.a. |
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| prd |
| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:18 pm |
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In sci.archaeology message news:450487e8$0$9645$dbd43001@news.wanadoo.nl
by "Peter Alaca" <P.Alaca@sep.nn> . . . :
[quote:9d37ae8deb]Searles O'Dubhain wrote:
news:_bCdnY0STMYpxpnYnZ2dnUVZ_sKdnZ2d@comcast.com
"Peter Alaca" <P.Alaca@sep.nn> wrote in message
news:45044b49$1$41151$dbd45001@news.wanadoo.nl...
Michael Kuettner wrote: news:ee1gv1$o3b$1@atlas.ip-plus.net
Since Doug and Searles were talking about Druidism in the Stonehenge
thread, I'd be interested in how "Druidism" is defined in the
Anglo-Saxon context. What are the characteristics ?
From what time onwards are Druids detectable ?
Here on the continent, I can't find more than a loose set of
overlappings for "Druidism".
Were the druids using shafts for deposing the bones of their
sacrifices ? Which animals were sacrificed ?
Did the British Celts keep the heads of their enemies as a trophy ?
Any signs for the adaption of chthonic gods ?
Is there any reason to call anything archaeological "Druid"?
I'd say that only those things pertaining to Druids and Celtic
religious practices from archaeological finds should be mentioned
in relation to Druids. Some of these things are ritual sites, votive
deposits, cauldrons, lunula, gold ornaments, Ogham and images
of deities/spirits.
You are using circular arguments.
The questions to answer are:
- What druids were.
- When they lived
- Where they lived
- What their exclusive attributes were.
[/quote:9d37ae8deb]
While technically you are correct, at 400 gods
of various geographic origins I would find
it hard to beleive that there was no
connection with the western celtic cultural
wave.
Doug keeps supporting this line but
almost everyone assumes there is a connection. |
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| Peter Alaca |
| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:47 pm |
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prd wrote: news:c31Ng.100597$5i3.5657@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net
[quote:da12c0330a]"Peter Alaca" . . . :
Searles O'Dubhain wrote:
"Peter Alaca" wrote in message
Is there any reason to call anything archaeological "Druid"?
I'd say that only those things pertaining to Druids and Celtic
religious practices from archaeological finds should be mentioned
in relation to Druids. Some of these things are ritual sites, votive
deposits, cauldrons, lunula, gold ornaments, Ogham and images
of deities/spirits.
You are using circular arguments.
The questions to answer are:
- What druids were.
- When they lived
- Where they lived
- What their exclusive attributes were.
While technically you are correct, at 400 gods
of various geographic origins I would find
it hard to beleive that there was no
connection with the western celtic cultural
wave.
Doug keeps supporting this line but
almost everyone assumes there is a connection.
[/quote:da12c0330a]
Try this: how do you recognize the existence
of Lutheran clergymen in the archaeological
records?
--
p.a. |
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| Searles O'Dubhain |
| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:35 pm |
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Guest
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"Peter Alaca" <P.Alaca@sep.nn> wrote in message
news:450487e8$0$9645$dbd43001@news.wanadoo.nl...
[quote:cf9c9e8c63]Searles O'Dubhain wrote:
news:_bCdnY0STMYpxpnYnZ2dnUVZ_sKdnZ2d@comcast.com
"Peter Alaca" <P.Alaca@sep.nn> wrote in message
news:45044b49$1$41151$dbd45001@news.wanadoo.nl...
Michael Kuettner wrote: news:ee1gv1$o3b$1@atlas.ip-plus.net
Since Doug and Searles were talking about Druidism in the
Stonehenge
thread, I'd be interested in how "Druidism" is defined in the
Anglo-Saxon context. What are the characteristics ?
From what time onwards are Druids detectable ?
Here on the continent, I can't find more than a loose set of
overlappings for "Druidism".
Were the druids using shafts for deposing the bones of their
sacrifices ? Which animals were sacrificed ?
Did the British Celts keep the heads of their enemies as a trophy ?
Any signs for the adaption of chthonic gods ?
Is there any reason to call anything archaeological "Druid"?
I'd say that only those things pertaining to Druids and Celtic
religious practices from archaeological finds should be mentioned
in relation to Druids. Some of these things are ritual sites, votive
deposits, cauldrons, lunula, gold ornaments, Ogham and images
of deities/spirits.
You are using circular arguments.
The questions to answer are:
- What druids were.
- When they lived
- Where they lived
- What their exclusive attributes were.
--
p.a.
[/quote:cf9c9e8c63]
I've already answered those questions in the appropriate place in this
thread. You're not reading and responding to the responses where they
have occurred..
Searles O'Dubhain
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| prd |
| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:35 pm |
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In sci.archaeology message news:4504a42e$0$28058$dbd45001@news.wanadoo.nl
by "Peter Alaca" <P.Alaca@sep.nn> . . . :
[quote:78755ed84d]prd wrote: news:c31Ng.100597$5i3.5657@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net
"Peter Alaca" . . . :
Searles O'Dubhain wrote:
"Peter Alaca" wrote in message
Is there any reason to call anything archaeological "Druid"?
I'd say that only those things pertaining to Druids and Celtic
religious practices from archaeological finds should be mentioned
in relation to Druids. Some of these things are ritual sites, votive
deposits, cauldrons, lunula, gold ornaments, Ogham and images
of deities/spirits.
You are using circular arguments.
The questions to answer are:
- What druids were.
- When they lived
- Where they lived
- What their exclusive attributes were.
While technically you are correct, at 400 gods
of various geographic origins I would find
it hard to beleive that there was no
connection with the western celtic cultural
wave.
Doug keeps supporting this line but
almost everyone assumes there is a connection.
Try this: how do you recognize the existence
of Lutheran clergymen in the archaeological
records?
[/quote:78755ed84d]
I know the reservation, its just its a bit
pedantic, given the evidence for overlapping.
The only problem is that no-one is perfectly
clear on what druidism is.
Remeber the discussion on the bog bodies, these
cultic sacrifices were found in Ireland, England
Denmark, etc. Certainly celtic culture coexisted
with druidism and there is no such thing as an
official religion for a prehistoric culture. |
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| Eric Stevens |
| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 12:49 am |
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On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 02:24:57 GMT, prd <X_header@address.net> wrote:
[quote:6d27243ef0]In sci.archaeology message news:4504a42e$0$28058$dbd45001@news.wanadoo.nl
by "Peter Alaca" <P.Alaca@sep.nn> . . . :
prd wrote: news:c31Ng.100597$5i3.5657@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net
"Peter Alaca" . . . :
Searles O'Dubhain wrote:
"Peter Alaca" wrote in message
Is there any reason to call anything archaeological "Druid"?
I'd say that only those things pertaining to Druids and Celtic
religious practices from archaeological finds should be mentioned
in relation to Druids. Some of these things are ritual sites, votive
deposits, cauldrons, lunula, gold ornaments, Ogham and images
of deities/spirits.
You are using circular arguments.
The questions to answer are:
- What druids were.
- When they lived
- Where they lived
- What their exclusive attributes were.
While technically you are correct, at 400 gods
of various geographic origins I would find
it hard to beleive that there was no
connection with the western celtic cultural
wave.
Doug keeps supporting this line but
almost everyone assumes there is a connection.
Try this: how do you recognize the existence
of Lutheran clergymen in the archaeological
records?
I know the reservation, its just its a bit
pedantic, given the evidence for overlapping.
The only problem is that no-one is perfectly
clear on what druidism is.
Remeber the discussion on the bog bodies, these
cultic sacrifices were found in Ireland, England
Denmark, etc. Certainly celtic culture coexisted
with druidism and there is no such thing as an
official religion for a prehistoric culture.
[/quote:6d27243ef0]
Are you suggesting bog bodies are a determinant for druidism, or
celtic culture?
Eric Stevens |
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| Peter Alaca |
| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:25 am |
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Eric Stevens wrote: news:v5n9g21p6fm3tmbbjaknuk0jcib2tb461e@4ax.com
[quote:3fa9fe4010]prd wrote:
"Peter Alaca" . . . :
prd wrote:
"Peter Alaca" . . . :
Searles O'Dubhain wrote:
"Peter Alaca" wrote in message
Is there any reason to call anything archaeological "Druid"?
I'd say that only those things pertaining to Druids and Celtic
religious practices from archaeological finds should be mentioned
in relation to Druids. Some of these things are ritual sites,
votive deposits, cauldrons, lunula, gold ornaments, Ogham and
images
of deities/spirits.
You are using circular arguments.
The questions to answer are:
- What druids were.
- When they lived
- Where they lived
- What their exclusive attributes were.
While technically you are correct, at 400 gods
of various geographic origins I would find
it hard to beleive that there was no
connection with the western celtic cultural
wave.
Doug keeps supporting this line but
almost everyone assumes there is a connection.
Try this: how do you recognize the existence
of Lutheran clergymen in the archaeological
records?
I know the reservation, its just its a bit
pedantic, given the evidence for overlapping.
The only problem is that no-one is perfectly
clear on what druidism is.
Remeber the discussion on the bog bodies, these
cultic sacrifices were found in Ireland, England
Denmark, etc. Certainly celtic culture coexisted
with druidism and there is no such thing as an
official religion for a prehistoric culture.
Are you suggesting bog bodies are a determinant for druidism, or
celtic culture?
[/quote:3fa9fe4010]
They certainly were not.
--
p.a. |
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| Peter Alaca |
| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:27 am |
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prd wrote:
[quote:2f1ab0ea06]"Peter Alaca" wrote
prd wrote:
"Peter Alaca" . . . :
Searles O'Dubhain wrote:
"Peter Alaca" wrote
Is there any reason to call anything archaeological "Druid"?
I'd say that only those things pertaining to Druids and Celtic
religious practices from archaeological finds should be mentioned
in relation to Druids. Some of these things are ritual sites,
votive deposits, cauldrons, lunula, gold ornaments, Ogham and
images
of deities/spirits.
You are using circular arguments.
The questions to answer are:
- What druids were.
- When they lived
- Where they lived
- What their exclusive attributes were.
While technically you are correct, at 400 gods
of various geographic origins I would find
it hard to beleive that there was no
connection with the western celtic cultural
wave.
Doug keeps supporting this line but
almost everyone assumes there is a connection.
Try this: how do you recognize the existence
of Lutheran clergymen in the archaeological
records?
I know the reservation, its just its a bit
pedantic, given the evidence for overlapping.
The only problem is that no-one is perfectly
clear on what druidism is.
[/quote:2f1ab0ea06]
Yes, that is the whole point, and therefore you can't say,
as Searles did, that ritual sites, votive deposits, cauldrons,
lunula, gold ornaments, Ogham and images of deities/spirits
are signs of druidism.
[quote:2f1ab0ea06]Remeber the discussion on the bog bodies, these
cultic sacrifices were found in Ireland, England
Denmark, etc. Certainly celtic culture coexisted
with druidism and there is no such thing as an
official religion for a prehistoric culture.
[/quote:2f1ab0ea06]
--
p.a. |
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