anglicism/gallicism

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anglicism/gallicism

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Mike Lyle

Posted: Sat May 07, 2005 1:09 pm

Guest

Peter T. Daniels wrote:
[quote:976bd448db]Donna Richoux wrote:

Peter T. Daniels <grammatim@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

Bob Cunningham wrote:

And "duck tape" for "duct tape".

Did you sleep through all of last week, when it emerged that
"duck
tape" is earlier than "duct tape" and was probably recoined as a
trademark subsequently?

First, you seemed to miss a fine point or two. "Duck tape" was
earlier only in the sense that the early phrase named a different
product, a cloth tape without glue. What evidence is available
shows
the adhesive sort was called "duct tape" slightly before "duck
tape," but that evidence is sketchy.

Second, you and Bob C. would be well advised to ignore each
other's
posts because you both lose your tempers and the rest of us are
weary of seeing that happen. I hope he doesn't rise to your bait.

Then why does he keep posting his maunderings to sci.lang?
[/quote:976bd448db]
Perhaps -- of course I'm only thinking aloud here, running a kite up
the ball-park to see if anybody salutes -- there's somebody else on
sci.lang he wants to talk to?

--
Mike.

Mark

Posted: Sat May 07, 2005 1:23 pm

Guest

Raymond S. Wise wrote:
[quote:5dd0ed987d]retrosorter wrote:

There's also "poutine" (which, among other things, is now an entry in
The *Encarta World English Dictionary,* North American edition). I've
mentioned it before as a word having gone from English into French and
then back into English, the original term supposedly being "pudding,"
but that etymology has been called into question, according to the
author of the Wikipedia article on "poutine."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poutine

I thought it was invented by that Russian guy.[/quote:5dd0ed987d]

Joachim Pense

Posted: Sat May 07, 2005 3:18 pm

Guest

Helmut Richter:

[quote:f5496a8584]
This phenomenon as such is not new either: the word "rosa" in "eine rosa
Bluse" has been uninflected during decades without causing trouble. The
[/quote:f5496a8584]
I do not buy that. It has been causing trouble all the time. Colloquial
German has "eine rosane Bluse", but this form is deprecated by teachers and
language authorities, which favour "eine rosa Bluse" which doesn't fit well
into the German grammar, but causes trouble by its very presence.

Joachim

Joachim Pense

Posted: Sat May 07, 2005 3:30 pm

Guest

John Woodgate:

[quote:7a41ca5ef0]I read in sci.lang.translation that eromlignod <eromlignod@aol.com
wrote (in <1115391033.158455.244580@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>) about
'anglicism/gallicism', on Fri, 6 May 2005:

Seriously though, I agree with you. Had the Normans not invaded in
1066, English would be...well...German, basically.

Only very basically. Anglo-Saxon looks and sounds very different. There
is a lot of Latin in modern English that didn't come through Normandy,
too.

[/quote:7a41ca5ef0]
Beowulf, from Wikipedia:

oretmecgas æfter æþelum frægn: ...asked the warriors of their lineage:
"Hwanon ferigeað ge fætte scyldas, "Whence do you carry ornate shields,
græge syrcan ond grimhelmas, Grey mail-shirts and masked helms,
heresceafta heap? Ic eom Hroðgares A multitude of spears? I am Hrothgar's
ar ond ombiht. Ne seah ic elþeodige herald and officer. I have never seen,
of foreigners,
þus manige men modiglicran, So many men, of braver bearing,
Wen ic þæt ge for wlenco, nalles for wræcsiðum,
I know that out of daring,
by no means in exile,
ac for higeþrymmum Hroðgar sohton." But for greatness of heart, you have
sought Hrothgar."

I must say, to me as a German without any specific knowledge of Anglo-Saxon,
this looks (by a superficial glance) at least as close to German as it does
to English. Maybe right in the middle.

Joachim

Guest

Posted: Sat May 07, 2005 3:32 pm

On Sat, 7 May 2005 20:10:21 +0200, trio@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux)
wrote:

[quote:6e7911717f]Peter T. Daniels <grammatim@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

Bob Cunningham wrote:

And "duck tape" for "duct tape".

Did you sleep through all of last week, when it emerged that "duck tape"
is earlier than "duct tape" and was probably recoined as a trademark
subsequently?

[-]
Second, you and Bob C. would be well advised to ignore each other's
posts because you both lose your tempers and the rest of us are weary of
seeing that happen. I hope he doesn't rise to your bait.
[/quote:6e7911717f]
I looked at that 'the rest of us' and at once bethought me of the two
elegant rejoinders to that sort of presumption when it last came up
here.

1. you pregnant?
2. you got a turd in your pocket? (Texan, I believe).

Me, I just ask why you feel you have to do this sort of thing.

Paul J Kriha

Posted: Sat May 07, 2005 11:56 pm

Guest

[quote:bcb6e5f5fc]Des Small wrote:

John Woodgate <jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> writes:

**Everything** in English is a consequence of occupation by a
foreign force, except a very few suspected pre-Celtic words and the
legion of voluntarily-adopted borrowings!

Hwæt? If you're pegging the Angles and Saxons and Jutes (oh my!) as
invaders, we look forward very much to your theory explaining how
Blighty was the cradle of humanity, in opposition to the more popular
"out of Africa" theory.

Des
is as autochthonique as it gets, which is not at all
[/quote:bcb6e5f5fc]
Hey, in which country is "autochthonique" autochthonic? Smile

Google claims total amnesia.
Is that why you cannot be it? :-)

Paul JK

Wolfgang Schwanke

Posted: Sun May 08, 2005 12:48 am

Guest

"Kevin O'Donnell" <k_odonnell1@comcast.net> wrote in
news:P8Gdnfn_NaGwR-HfRVn-3g@comcast.com:

[quote:e46f507224]Years ago I had a somewhat dotty acquaintance who was organising a
movement called: CELTIC REVANCHE. He produced a brochure that
included slogans such as "Britain for the Celts!" "The Anglo-Saxon
Experiment Has Failed!" "Scots, Welsh, Irish, Cornish, Manx UNITE!"
[/quote:e46f507224]
There was a similar movement in Brittany. Maybe one was modeled on the
other?

Regards

--
Even though people recommend them a lot, I do not see "Make a shorter link"
style services having much long-term value to anyone - they will just go
belly up when you are digging through archived messages and would most need
the original URLs. <YgJaa.881$G97.755265@reader1.news.jippii.net>

John Atkinson

Posted: Sun May 08, 2005 6:30 am

Guest

"Des Small" <des.small@bristol.ac.uk> wrote...
[quote:2b176eacb8]
Swahili has a metric shedload of loanwords, more genders than you
could shake a silly English stick at and is not especially
Academised. (Is there a Swahili Academy, knowledgeable persons? If
so, is it influential?)
[/quote:2b176eacb8]
In Tanzania, yes. In Kenya, not really.

Standard Swahili is Zanzibar Swahili.

" In 1930, an official body for the standardization and promotion of
Swahili was founded by the British: the Inter-Territorial Language
(Swahili) Committee. The Committee made a far-reaching decision: despite
the predominance of the Mombasa variant of Swahili in the northern parts
of British East-Africa (Kenya), they selected the Zanzibar variant as
the basis for further language standardization in the whole of
East-Africa. [...] The publication of E.O. Ashton's Swahili Grammar
(Ashton 1944) and the Standard Swahili-English Dictionary by the
Inter-Territorial Language Committee under the direction of Frederick
Johnson (Johnson 1939) were landmarks in the process of Swahili
standardization. [...] The importance of the Committee's work is
further stressed by the fact that its original agenda for the
standardization and development of Swahili was almost completely adopted
by its successor in post-independence Tanzania: the Institute of
Kiswahili Research (Chuo cha Uchunguzi wa Lugha ya Kiswahili ) [now
located at the University of Dar-Es-Salaam]."

In phase with the political oscillations of the last three decades in
Tanzania, the influence of the Institute on the government and the
schools has fluctuated -- mostly downwards.

John.

Helmut Richter

Posted: Sun May 08, 2005 6:40 am

Guest

In article <YDnfe.6850$31.2096@news-server.bigpond.net.au>, John Atkinson wrote:

[quote:e5bd629c7b]by its successor in post-independence Tanzania: the Institute of
Kiswahili Research (Chuo cha Uchunguzi wa Lugha ya Kiswahili ) [now
located at the University of Dar-Es-Salaam]."
[/quote:e5bd629c7b]
In addition, there is the National Swahili Council (Baraza la Kiswahili la
Taifa), also located at Dar-Es-Salaam. I do not know what their task and
their influence actually is. At least, they are both cited in the preface
of dictionaries as reliable references.

Helmut Richter

Guest

Posted: Sun May 08, 2005 10:03 am

On Sat, 7 May 2005 08:09:33 -0700, "Kevin O'Donnell"
<k_odonnell1@comcast.net> wrote:

[quote:989de8e5de]John Woodgate writes:

**Everything** in English is a consequence of occupation by a
foreign force, except a very few suspected pre-Celtic words and the
legion of voluntarily-adopted borrowings!

Those are mere recent immigrants. AFAIK, the people who were here before
the first wave of Celts were Picts.

So we have as post-Pictish invaders, Celts (p- and q-), Romans, ASJs,
Vikings and Normans.

Years ago I had a somewhat dotty acquaintance who was organising a movement
called: CELTIC REVANCHE. He produced a brochure that included slogans such
as "Britain for the Celts!" "The Anglo-Saxon Experiment Has Failed!" "Scots,
Welsh, Irish, Cornish, Manx UNITE!"

[/quote:989de8e5de]
I guess John Woodgate might have had in mind a "Britain for the
Picts!"

Geo

retrosorter

Posted: Sun May 08, 2005 10:24 am

Guest

Actually, "item" is accepted in France but in Quebec it is regarded as
an anglicism. Sometimes here are terms such as "sweat" (short for
"sweatshir") used as an anglicism in France but not in Quebec, and
there anglicisms in Quebec that don't exist in France. "Frencher"
(French kiss,)

It seems that what is considered an anglicism is somewhat arbitrary.

Peter Twydell

Posted: Sun May 08, 2005 12:06 pm

Guest

In message <427e3799.6504657@news.ucalgary.ca>, GEOMe@home.here.invalid
writes
[quote:03626a8a0a]On Sat, 7 May 2005 08:09:33 -0700, "Kevin O'Donnell"
k_odonnell1@comcast.net> wrote:

John Woodgate writes:

**Everything** in English is a consequence of occupation by a
foreign force, except a very few suspected pre-Celtic words and the
legion of voluntarily-adopted borrowings!

Those are mere recent immigrants. AFAIK, the people who were here before
the first wave of Celts were Picts.

So we have as post-Pictish invaders, Celts (p- and q-), Romans, ASJs,
Vikings and Normans.

Years ago I had a somewhat dotty acquaintance who was organising a movement
called: CELTIC REVANCHE. He produced a brochure that included slogans such
as "Britain for the Celts!" "The Anglo-Saxon Experiment Has Failed!" "Scots,
Welsh, Irish, Cornish, Manx UNITE!"

I guess John Woodgate might have had in mind a "Britain for the
Picts!"

Geo

But he lives in the Kingdom of the East Saxons. That might cause trouble[/quote:03626a8a0a]
with the natives (says one who was born there, of partly Celtic blood).
--
Peter

Ying tong iddle-i po!

Mark

Posted: Sun May 08, 2005 5:30 pm

Guest

Helmut Richter wrote:
[quote:9132cd8964]In article <YDnfe.6850$31.2096@news-server.bigpond.net.au>, John Atkinson wrote:

by its successor in post-independence Tanzania: the Institute of
Kiswahili Research (Chuo cha Uchunguzi wa Lugha ya Kiswahili ) [now
located at the University of Dar-Es-Salaam]."

In addition, there is the National Swahili Council (Baraza la Kiswahili la
Taifa), also located at Dar-Es-Salaam. I do not know what their task and
their influence actually is. At least, they are both cited in the preface
of dictionaries as reliable references.

Helmut Richter
[/quote:9132cd8964]
Is it true that Swahili for roundabout is "keepylefty" ?

Helmut Richter

Posted: Mon May 09, 2005 1:49 am

Guest

Mark:

[quote:d6d2c79668]Is it true that Swahili for roundabout is "keepylefty" ?
[/quote:d6d2c79668]
Must be "kiplefti": Swahili spelling is strictly phonetic,
e.g. "choir" is spelt "kwaya".

Don't know; I have not found the word in two dictionaries. Google
shows a couple of hits for "kiplefti", some of them reporting that the
plural is "viplefti" according to the rule for the class of nouns
beginning with "ki-". All these Web pages are in European languages
and they do not talk about roundabouts in traffic systems but about
language idiosycrasies in Swahili.

Helmut Richter

John Atkinson

Posted: Mon May 09, 2005 1:57 am

Guest

"Mark" <mark@nospam.com> wrote...
[quote:ffe8c3c7ad]
Is it true that Swahili for roundabout is "keepylefty" ?
[/quote:ffe8c3c7ad]
kipilefiti

I've never seen or heard this word actually used, but all the texts
mention it.

The plural is vipilefiti of course

The other one they all mention is digadi for mudgard (class 5/6)

John.

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