Might it be possible to raise the surface temp and atmospheric density
enough to make it easier for ppl to live there when astronauts get
there in 15-20 yrs? I dont expect to see this happen cuz ppl think
nukes are too scary but I was just wondering.

dbohara@mindspring.com (Parallax) wrote in
news:792abaf9.0401061338.ded4777@posting.google.com:
Might it be possible to raise the surface temp and atmospheric density
enough to make it easier for ppl to live there when astronauts get
there in 15-20 yrs? I dont expect to see this happen cuz ppl think
nukes are too scary but I was just wondering.


Assuming you have the ability to redirect an arbitrarily huge amount of icy
meteors/comets to mars. (we dont, by many MANY magnitudes, but never mind
for now).

Heating the place up is no problem. Incoming cometary material will posess
enough kinetic energy to heat itself to many thousands of degrees. As we
will need to dump trillions of tons of comets to form any real atmosphere,
the problem will most definitely be excess heat, not cold.

i.e.
Terraforming mars by dumping comets on it will work fine if you are willing
to move an *obscene* amount of comets, and do it over many years. Centuries
if not millenia. There is no way to speed this method up.

A *slightly* easier method would be to trigger as much deep seismic
activity as possible, use vulcanism to release the needed gasses. Problem
here is again the scale of energy needed. Mars has been kinda inactive for
a loooong time, the molten stuff is way deeper than on earth.(1500 km down,
compared to earth's 30-50km)

Marvin <kitfox_dontspamme@pixie.co.za> wrote in message
news:<3ffb306f.0@news1.mweb.co.za>...
dbohara@mindspring.com (Parallax) wrote in
news:792abaf9.0401061338.ded4777@posting.google.com:
Might it be possible to raise the surface temp and atmospheric density
enough to make it easier for ppl to live there when astronauts get
there in 15-20 yrs? I dont expect to see this happen cuz ppl think
nukes are too scary but I was just wondering.


Assuming you have the ability to redirect an arbitrarily huge amount of
icy
meteors/comets to mars. (we dont, by many MANY magnitudes, but never
mind
for now).

Heating the place up is no problem. Incoming cometary material will
posess
enough kinetic energy to heat itself to many thousands of degrees. As we
will need to dump trillions of tons of comets to form any real
atmosphere,
the problem will most definitely be excess heat, not cold.

i.e.
Terraforming mars by dumping comets on it will work fine if you are
willing
to move an *obscene* amount of comets, and do it over many years.
Centuries
if not millenia. There is no way to speed this method up.

A *slightly* easier method would be to trigger as much deep seismic
activity as possible, use vulcanism to release the needed gasses.
Problem
here is again the scale of energy needed. Mars has been kinda inactive
for
a loooong time, the molten stuff is way deeper than on earth.(1500 km
down,
compared to earth's 30-50km)

Diverting comets theoretically shouldnt be too hard. It does not take
much when the comet is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay far away to give it a tiny
nudge to get its orbit to be where we want it int he inner solar
system. X-rays emanating from a 1 MT nuke are a substantial nudge and
we got lots of nukes.

We could begin terraforming mars in a fairly short time by using nukes
to alter the orbits of comets so they encounter Mars. I done
accurately enough, it might be possible to have the comet torn apart
by tidal forces as it comes very close to the planet to avoid impacts.
The gases of the comet would become part of the new Martian
atmosphere and cause some greenhouse warming. Some cometary impacts
might be good to locally cause ice to melt and put water into the
atmosphere for further warming. I dunno how many comets this would
take or how long it would take to increase the temp of the martian
surface. Havent even done the calculation of necessary mass.
I would favor nukes as a way to alter a cometary orbit since the x-ray
deposition in the low density comet would give it a more gentle
impulse applied over the entire comet surface than a rocket mounted in
one spot or other explosive methods. Furthermore, the nukes are
available and maybe even the launchers.
Might it be possible to raise the surface temp and atmospheric density
enough to make it easier for ppl to live there when astronauts get
there in 15-20 yrs? I dont expect to see this happen cuz ppl think
nukes are too scary but I was just wondering.

The more you heat Mars, the more atmospheret will boil off into space!

"Aozotorp" <aozotorp@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040107025723.12189.00002779@mb-m05.aol.com...

The more you heat Mars, the more atmospheret will boil off into space!

A Martian atmosphere of two Earth equivalent surface pressures would be
stable for a geological time period. Like 10 million years. Long enough for
humanity to set up home, complete terraforming, nuke ourselves back into the
stone age, redevelop technology, colonize the solar system, evolving into a
higher lifeform, move onto the Oort, develop FTL and head off to
Andromeadia. Boil-off into space is irrelevant unless you're talking about a
much more lumiscant sun and 5-billion year time periods.

Regards
Frank Scrooby

"Aozotorp" <aozotorp@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040107025723.12189.00002779@mb-m05.aol.com...

The more you heat Mars, the more atmospheret will boil off into space!

A Martian atmosphere of two Earth equivalent surface pressures would be
stable for a geological time period. Like 10 million years. Long enough for
humanity to set up home, complete terraforming, nuke ourselves back into the
stone age, redevelop technology, colonize the solar system, evolving into a
higher lifeform, move onto the Oort, develop FTL and head off to
Andromeadia. Boil-off into space is irrelevant unless you're talking about a
much more lumiscant sun and 5-billion year time periods.

Regards
Frank Scrooby

Diverting comets theoretically shouldnt be too hard. It does not
take much when the comet is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay far away to give it a
tiny nudge to get its orbit to be where we want it int he inner solar
system. X-rays emanating from a 1 MT nuke are a substantial nudge
and we got lots of nukes.

Diverting a comet to miss the Earth is easier than diverting it to hit
the Earth. If a comet is aimed straight at the Earth, you have to
change its course by 4100 miles to make it miss. If a comet is
expected to pass 5 million miles from Earth, you have to change its
course quite a bit to make it hit. Some asteroids are so massive that
even a 100 megaton nuke won't change their courses much.

"Aozotorp" <aozotorp@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040107025723.12189.00002779@mb-m05.aol.com...

The more you heat Mars, the more atmospheret will boil off into space!

A Martian atmosphere of two Earth equivalent surface pressures would be
stable for a geological time period. Like 10 million years. Long enough for
humanity to set up home, complete terraforming, nuke ourselves back into the
stone age, redevelop technology, colonize the solar system, evolving into a
higher lifeform, move onto the Oort, develop FTL and head off to
Andromeadia. Boil-off into space is irrelevant unless you're talking about a
much more lumiscant sun and 5-billion year time periods.

Regards
Frank Scrooby


Really??? And you have the Physics of that worked out???

"Aozotorp" <aozotorp@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040107025723.12189.00002779@mb-m05.aol.com...

The more you heat Mars, the more atmospheret will boil off into space!

A Martian atmosphere of two Earth equivalent surface pressures would be
stable for a geological time period. Like 10 million years. Long enough for
humanity to set up home, complete terraforming, nuke ourselves back into the
stone age, redevelop technology, colonize the solar system, evolving into a
higher lifeform, move onto the Oort, develop FTL and head off to
Andromeadia. Boil-off into space is irrelevant unless you're talking about a
much more lumiscant sun and 5-billion year time periods.

Regards
Frank Scrooby


Really??? And you have the Physics of that worked out???

A "side of the envelope calculation" (even more cursory than back of
the envelope), gives about 2600 comets each about 20 Km diameter to
raise the atmospheric pressure from .01 earth to .1 earth. This uses
only the material of the comet (assumed .2 gm/cm3) and does not
account for any greenhouse effect that will cause more CO2 to go into
the Mars atmosphere. It might be considerably fewer. It also does
not account for CO2 and water vapor produced by cometary impact.

A "side of the envelope calculation" (even more cursory than back of
the envelope), gives about 2600 comets each about 20 Km diameter to
raise the atmospheric pressure from .01 earth to .1 earth. This uses
only the material of the comet (assumed .2 gm/cm3) and does not
account for any greenhouse effect that will cause more CO2 to go into
the Mars atmosphere. It might be considerably fewer. It also does
not account for CO2 and water vapor produced by cometary impact.

dbohara@mindspring.com (Parallax) wrote in
news:792abaf9.0401071359.47fa2dcf@posting.google.com:

A "side of the envelope calculation" (even more cursory than back of
the envelope), gives about 2600 comets each about 20 Km diameter to
raise the atmospheric pressure from .01 earth to .1 earth. This uses
only the material of the comet (assumed .2 gm/cm3) and does not
account for any greenhouse effect that will cause more CO2 to go into
the Mars atmosphere. It might be considerably fewer. It also does
not account for CO2 and water vapor produced by cometary impact.


Owch.
Whacking that into Mars, on cometary type trajectories.
Impact at about 39km/sec
Total kinetic energy released = 1.27 * 10^24 joules
== 426 *Million* Megatons equivalent

Did you want to give Mars an atmosphere, or smash it to gravel?