In article <EuIae.15575$r53.12440@attbi_s21>,
ring_theory <ring_theory@yahoo.com> wrote:
I hope they win and nasa has to terminate the mission.
we shouldn't be messing with things we know little or nothing about.

I can't think of a better reason to be messing with it than that we know
little or nothing about it. Ignorance can be cured.

"Gregory L. Hansen" <glhansen@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote in message
news:d4hitf$9gm$1@rainier.uits.indiana.edu...
In article <EuIae.15575$r53.12440@attbi_s21>,
ring_theory <ring_theory@yahoo.com> wrote:
I hope they win and nasa has to terminate the mission.
we shouldn't be messing with things we know little or nothing
about.

I can't think of a better reason to be messing with it than that we
know
little or nothing about it. Ignorance can be cured.


I couldn't agree more but there are less destructive ways of going
about it.
That would have less impact on the natural order of things.

ring_theory wrote:

knowing mans luck our gravity will pull it in. The whole point is
that
the possibilities are near infinite.

Saying that the possibilities are "near" infinite is equivalent to
saying that any one of those possibilities has a "near" infinitesimal
likelyhood, in which case a randomly determined re-direction to an
Earth-intersecting path is as unlikely as any other.

But fortunately there is plenty more than just plain zero understood
about orbital dynamics. That's why spacecraft can be precisely
navigated to rendesvous with planets, asteroids, comets, etc. in the
first place. More than zero can be confidently figured out ahead of
time as to the consequences of the probe's impact upon the comet
nucleus.

The velocity, energy & momentum of the copper impactor will be known
ahead of time. The velocity of the comet also will be known before
hand. Its mass, and therefore its energy & momentum, can be estimated
to within a useful approximation ahead of time due to data aquired in
previous comet explorations. Thus, a rational estimate is possible
before hand of the dynamical implications of the probe to the comet's
overall behavior. Your problem is that you know nothing, and so believe
in everything. Those who are more learned don't have to believe in
everything. They can afford to wittle down the possibilities to a
narrow few, and make progress from there.

And it's not possible for this mission to be a hastily thought out
spur of the moment thing, as you describe it. Interplanetary
expeditions are neither simple nor cheap. They require planning,
planning, and then some more planning. This takes time- YEARS. It takes
money, which in this case is taxpayer provided. This means that a
funding proposal had to go through due process. It went through layers
of review & scrutiny. The scientists had to painstakingly lay out the
mission objective in sufficient detail so as to be meaningful to the
review commitees. No one just handed them several hundred million
dollars and said, "Oh hell, just do whatever tickles yer fancy with
this bag of money." There was no "doh! here comes a comet let's blow
it up." You are imagining the ways of the world in a very juvenile
fashion.

-Mark Martin

I hope they win and nasa has to terminate the mission.
we shouldn't be messing with things we know little or nothing about.

9p temple 1 slingshots between jupiter and mars this impact is going to do 2
things decrease it's mass and increase it's velocity. I suspect that nasa is
trying to get the comet to impact with mars adding water to the planet which
would be good for mars. problem is that by increasing the velocity of the
comet it is more likely it won't complete it's slingshot it'll reach escape
velocity to soon and be hurtled in an unexpected direction most likely right
into earths path. if by chance it's not a immediate responce by impact or
the unexpected direction thing it may still do it years down the line as
soon as the fall of 2010.

Shame on you nasa!

"Jim Phillips" <jphillip@bcpl.net> wrote in message
news:Pine.SOL.3.96.1050424155714.23689B-100000@mail...
On Sun, 24 Apr 2005, ring_theory wrote:


"Mark Martin" <qed100@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1114357525.556015.159020@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

ring_theory wrote:
I hope they win and nasa has to terminate the mission.
we shouldn't be messing with things we know little or nothing about.

HAAAAAH, HAH, HAH, HAH, HAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH...!!! Tell me, What is the
reason that we explore in the first place? It's because we know little
or nothing. Wisdom comes with experience. You would have us wallow
indefinitely in enforced naivete'. How naive of you.

No. There is a less destructive approach to discovery. It's called lets
go
visit it. aka send a probe to land on it and ride piggyback collecting
data.

Write your congressman and demand more money be put towards such
endeavors.

There is a vast difference between blowing chunks out of a naturally
occuring anomolie and observing it emperically by collecting data over a
period of time.

Is it wrong for a geologist to use a hammer to break open a rock and
take a look inside?


No it's not wrong for a geologist to break open a rock.
However there is definately something ultimately wrong with blowing chunks
out of comets before concidering all possible implications.




9p temple 1 slingshots between jupiter and mars this impact is going
to do 2
things decrease it's mass and increase it's velocity. I suspect that
nasa is
trying to get the comet to impact with mars adding water to the
planet which
would be good for mars. problem is that by increasing the velocity
of
the
comet it is more likely it won't complete it's slingshot it'll reach
escape
velocity to soon and be hurtled in an unexpected direction most
likely right
into earths path.

MOST likely? HAAAAAH, HAH, HAH, HAH, HAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH...!!!
Well,
you show me the orbital calculations you've performed to justify this
assertion, then we'll talk.

google it yourself orbital calculator

A few questions:

What is the comet going to "reach escape velocity" from?

Mars's gravity.


What is the comet "slingshotting" around?

mars and jupiter. mars is the only one i'm concerned with.


Expressed as a %, how much of the comet's mass and velocity will change as
a
result of the impact?

1% would be too much.

temple 1 has been doing a hat-trick of nature for a
very long time I'm not going to speculate how long or why it does. What man
should learn from it's freakish cycle. is that the galaxy is unchanging it's
not expanding or contracting it is a constant. In fact temple 1 is empirical
evidence of such.

The whole deep impact project just appears to be a spure of the moment thing
with the mentality of doh! here comes a comet let's blow it up.

Yet does man
know what the implications of an explosion this size has in open space let
alone blowing chunks out of a comet??

"Mark Martin" <qed100@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1114407744.825638.108290@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

ring_theory wrote:

knowing mans luck our gravity will pull it in. The whole point is
that
the possibilities are near infinite.

Saying that the possibilities are "near" infinite is equivalent to
saying that any one of those possibilities has a "near" infinitesimal
likelyhood, in which case a randomly determined re-direction to an
Earth-intersecting path is as unlikely as any other.

But fortunately there is plenty more than just plain zero understood
about orbital dynamics. That's why spacecraft can be precisely
navigated to rendesvous with planets, asteroids, comets, etc. in the
first place. More than zero can be confidently figured out ahead of
time as to the consequences of the probe's impact upon the comet
nucleus.

The velocity, energy & momentum of the copper impactor will be known
ahead of time. The velocity of the comet also will be known before
hand. Its mass, and therefore its energy & momentum, can be estimated
to within a useful approximation ahead of time due to data aquired in
previous comet explorations. Thus, a rational estimate is possible
before hand of the dynamical implications of the probe to the comet's
overall behavior. Your problem is that you know nothing, and so believe
in everything. Those who are more learned don't have to believe in
everything. They can afford to wittle down the possibilities to a
narrow few, and make progress from there.

And it's not possible for this mission to be a hastily thought out
spur of the moment thing, as you describe it. Interplanetary
expeditions are neither simple nor cheap. They require planning,
planning, and then some more planning. This takes time- YEARS. It takes
money, which in this case is taxpayer provided. This means that a
funding proposal had to go through due process. It went through layers
of review & scrutiny. The scientists had to painstakingly lay out the
mission objective in sufficient detail so as to be meaningful to the
review commitees. No one just handed them several hundred million
dollars and said, "Oh hell, just do whatever tickles yer fancy with
this bag of money." There was no "doh! here comes a comet let's blow
it up." You are imagining the ways of the world in a very juvenile
fashion.

-Mark Martin


I know how the funding is aquired. Lies in the form of projections.
"near" infinitesimal likelyhood" maybe but still all implications need to be
concidered. Deep impact is going to alter temple1's natural orbit there is
no doubt about that. it's the implication of the altering that concernes me
and all of mankind.

I hope for mankind that i'm wrong. But what if I'm right?

snip

I just hope my speculations are wrong!

No it's not wrong for a geologist to break open a rock.
However there is definately something ultimately wrong with blowing chunks
out of comets before concidering all possible implications.

knowing mans luck our gravity will pull it in. The whole point is that
the possibilities are near infinite.

"ring_theory" <ring_theory@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:0J_ae.18147$NU4.546@attbi_s22...



No it's not wrong for a geologist to break open a rock.
However there is definately something ultimately wrong with blowing
chunks
out of comets before concidering all possible implications.

How do you know they havent?

SNIP


knowing mans luck our gravity will pull it in. The whole point is that
the possibilities are near infinite.

So the probability of any 1 particular possibility happening is so small
it
becomes irrelevant. I don't get what you are worried about. If the
possibility of a "bad thing" happening is 1/(near)infinity - there is
nothing to fear.

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 06:49:33 GMT, "ring_theory"
ring_theory@yahoo.com> wrote:


"Mark Martin" <qed100@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1114407744.825638.108290@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

ring_theory wrote:

knowing mans luck our gravity will pull it in. The whole point is
that
the possibilities are near infinite.

Saying that the possibilities are "near" infinite is equivalent to
saying that any one of those possibilities has a "near" infinitesimal
likelyhood, in which case a randomly determined re-direction to an
Earth-intersecting path is as unlikely as any other.

But fortunately there is plenty more than just plain zero understood
about orbital dynamics. That's why spacecraft can be precisely
navigated to rendesvous with planets, asteroids, comets, etc. in the
first place. More than zero can be confidently figured out ahead of
time as to the consequences of the probe's impact upon the comet
nucleus.

The velocity, energy & momentum of the copper impactor will be known
ahead of time. The velocity of the comet also will be known before
hand. Its mass, and therefore its energy & momentum, can be estimated
to within a useful approximation ahead of time due to data aquired in
previous comet explorations. Thus, a rational estimate is possible
before hand of the dynamical implications of the probe to the comet's
overall behavior. Your problem is that you know nothing, and so believe
in everything. Those who are more learned don't have to believe in
everything. They can afford to wittle down the possibilities to a
narrow few, and make progress from there.

And it's not possible for this mission to be a hastily thought out
spur of the moment thing, as you describe it. Interplanetary
expeditions are neither simple nor cheap. They require planning,
planning, and then some more planning. This takes time- YEARS. It takes
money, which in this case is taxpayer provided. This means that a
funding proposal had to go through due process. It went through layers
of review & scrutiny. The scientists had to painstakingly lay out the
mission objective in sufficient detail so as to be meaningful to the
review commitees. No one just handed them several hundred million
dollars and said, "Oh hell, just do whatever tickles yer fancy with
this bag of money." There was no "doh! here comes a comet let's blow
it up." You are imagining the ways of the world in a very juvenile
fashion.

-Mark Martin


I know how the funding is aquired. Lies in the form of projections.
"near" infinitesimal likelyhood" maybe but still all implications need to
be
concidered. Deep impact is going to alter temple1's natural orbit there
is
no doubt about that. it's the implication of the altering that concernes
me
and all of mankind.

Do you have even a clue as to what the change may be? ANY CLUE AT ALL?

Do you have a clue as to the changes that happen in a cometary orbit
as a result of outgassing as it heats up?

Do you know why comet ephemerides are updated?

Do you know the change that will likely be imparted by Jupiter on
Tempel1 during its next "encounter" with Jupiter, and how much that
will be ion comparison to the impact coming up in July?

I hope for mankind that i'm wrong. But what if I'm right?


You aren't right. It's that simple, chicken little.


Bah!

--
Maj. General, Fanatic Legions.
Commander of Southern Hemisphere Forces.

Find out about Australia's most dangerous Doomsday Cult:
http://users.bigpond.net.au/wanglese/pebble.htm

I hope for mankind that i'm wrong. But what if I'm right?

Nothing to fear??
No there is alot to fear. Dispite what you think bad things do happen.

ring_theory wrote:
"Gregory L. Hansen" <glhansen@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote in message
news:d4hitf$9gm$1@rainier.uits.indiana.edu...
In article <EuIae.15575$r53.12440@attbi_s21>,
ring_theory <ring_theory@yahoo.com> wrote:
I hope they win and nasa has to terminate the mission.
we shouldn't be messing with things we know little or nothing
about.

I can't think of a better reason to be messing with it than that we
know
little or nothing about it. Ignorance can be cured.


I couldn't agree more but there are less destructive ways of going
about it.
That would have less impact on the natural order of things.

The natural order of things cannot be disturbed or disrupted by mere
mortals such as ourselves. The Universe is not an innocent, invaded by
us who have intruded from outside the cosmos. We are in, of & by the
nature of things. If we destroy entire cities with nuclear explosives,
it's because nuclear physics works, not because we've fucked up the way
things are objectively supposed to be. Similarly, if by some ultra-slim
chance we perturb the orbit of a comet to collide with Earth, it's not
because we've pissed off Karma, but rather because orbital mechanics
works that way. We cannot fuck up Nature. All we can fuck up is our own
interests.

-Mark Martin

"ring_theory" <ring_theory@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:VZ2be.18024$r53.15527@attbi_s21...
snip
Nothing to fear??
No there is alot to fear. Dispite what you think bad things do happen.


Generally because they have a probability >1/(almost)infinity

ring_theory wrote:
I hope they win and nasa has to terminate the mission.
we shouldn't be messing with things we know little or nothing about.

9p temple 1 slingshots between jupiter and mars this impact is going to
do 2
things decrease it's mass and increase it's velocity. I suspect that
nasa is
trying to get the comet to impact with mars adding water to the planet
which
would be good for mars. problem is that by increasing the velocity of
the
comet it is more likely it won't complete it's slingshot it'll reach
escape
velocity to soon and be hurtled in an unexpected direction most likely
right
into earths path. if by chance it's not a immediate responce by impact
or
the unexpected direction thing it may still do it years down the line as
soon as the fall of 2010.

Shame on you nasa!

Shame on you for being so manifestly stupid. Or perhaps you have the
mathematics behind your claim?