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| Tom Lawrance |
 Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 6:30 pm |
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The PIE root section in the back of my American Heritage Dictionary
attributes a host of IE words for flies to a root mu-. However,
instead of attributing Greek "muia" and "mua" directly to *mu-, as the
words suggest, it attributes them to a suffixed form of *mu-, *mus-ya.
Can anybody tell me the reason for this?
Thanks very much in advance.
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| Guest |
| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:34 am |
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Miguel Carrasquer wrote:
[quote:76a18c6c56]On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 17:27:55 -0800, Tom Lawrance <> wrote:
The PIE root section in the back of my American Heritage Dictionary
attributes a host of IE words for flies to a root mu-. However,
instead of attributing Greek "muia" and "mua" directly to *mu-, as
the
words suggest, it attributes them to a suffixed form of *mu-,
*mus-ya.
Can anybody tell me the reason for this?
Many of the IE words are based on *mus- (e.g. Lat. musca,
Lith. muse:), some are based on *muH- (e.g. ON my:, Alb
mi(zë)).
The Greek word is based on *mus- (*mus-ih2 > *musya) because
*-sy- regularly develops to -y- (by way of -sy- > -hy-
-yy-), although sometimes we see an irregular development
*-sy- > *-y- > zero (e.g. the o-stem genitive *-osyo > -oio
[Homer] or -oo = -ou [Attic]).
[/quote:76a18c6c56]
Wrong assumption ! The Proto-Ionic decipherment of the Phaistos Disk
has shown that the Homeric -<-oio> and <oo> forms have TWO DIFFERENT
ORIGINS. One comes from *-osyo, the second from *oyo.
The correct explanation of the problem has to be found in the "Proto-IE
Kretschmerian Theory" : The PRIMITIVE ROOT was *mus-, but in some
"Proto-IE languages" (in the Kretschmerian sense), it has become *muH-.
For the rest, I fully agree with what you said.
grapheus
[quote:76a18c6c56]That explains both muia (the
standard form) and mua (never seen it, but its existence is
predictable).
Because simple *-y- always gives zero, a proto-form *muH-ih2
*mu(:)ya can explain <mua>, but could never have given
muia>.
======================> Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
mcv@wxs.nl[/quote:76a18c6c56]
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| Tom Lawrance |
| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 10:30 am |
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Thanks very much for the explanations. But why couldn't O.N. "my" and
Gk. "mua" and "muia" have come directly from PIE *mu-, it seems like
this would have been the simplest way to have derived them?
On 13 Mar 2005 01:34:14 -0800, grapheus@www.com wrote:
[quote:3792d4ae20]
Miguel Carrasquer wrote:
On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 17:27:55 -0800, Tom Lawrance <> wrote:
The PIE root section in the back of my American Heritage Dictionary
attributes a host of IE words for flies to a root mu-. However,
instead of attributing Greek "muia" and "mua" directly to *mu-, as
the
words suggest, it attributes them to a suffixed form of *mu-,
*mus-ya.
Can anybody tell me the reason for this?
Many of the IE words are based on *mus- (e.g. Lat. musca,
Lith. muse:), some are based on *muH- (e.g. ON my:, Alb
mi(zë)).
The Greek word is based on *mus- (*mus-ih2 > *musya) because
*-sy- regularly develops to -y- (by way of -sy- > -hy-
-yy-), although sometimes we see an irregular development
*-sy- > *-y- > zero (e.g. the o-stem genitive *-osyo > -oio
[Homer] or -oo = -ou [Attic]).
Wrong assumption ! The Proto-Ionic decipherment of the Phaistos Disk
has shown that the Homeric -<-oio> and <oo> forms have TWO DIFFERENT
ORIGINS. One comes from *-osyo, the second from *oyo.
The correct explanation of the problem has to be found in the "Proto-IE
Kretschmerian Theory" : The PRIMITIVE ROOT was *mus-, but in some
"Proto-IE languages" (in the Kretschmerian sense), it has become *muH-.
For the rest, I fully agree with what you said.
grapheus
That explains both muia (the
standard form) and mua (never seen it, but its existence is
predictable).
Because simple *-y- always gives zero, a proto-form *muH-ih2
*mu(:)ya can explain <mua>, but could never have given
muia>.
=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
mcv@wxs.nl[/quote:3792d4ae20]
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| Miguel Carrasquer |
| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 10:46 am |
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On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 09:04:53 -0800, Tom Lawrance <> wrote:
[quote:5312534975]Thanks very much for the explanations. But why couldn't O.N. "my" and
Gk. "mua" and "muia" have come directly from PIE *mu-, it seems like
this would have been the simplest way to have derived them?
[/quote:5312534975]
ON my: has a long vowel, so it must come from *muH- (there
is no *mu- "fly"). Greek muia < *musya I have already
explained.
=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
mcv@wxs.nl
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| Guest |
| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 11:36 am |
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Miguel Carrasquer wrote:
[quote:508aca4eba]On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 09:04:53 -0800, Tom Lawrance <> wrote:
Thanks very much for the explanations. But why couldn't O.N. "my"
and
Gk. "mua" and "muia" have come directly from PIE *mu-, it seems like
this would have been the simplest way to have derived them?
[/quote:508aca4eba]
If I understand correctly, you are searching for a UNIQUE, PRIMITIVE
root. This is fine.
But the problem is that, for this one has to go back to a linguistical
stage which is even "beyond the Kretschmerian Proto-IE stage" of the
European languages !...At at this stage, TRUE "roots" don't exist !..
If you want to stay at the "PIE-stage", you have to accept TWO
different roots : *mus- and *muH- , as it is said hereafter :
[quote:508aca4eba]
ON my: has a long vowel, so it must come from *muH- (there
is no *mu- "fly"). Greek muia < *musya I have already
explained.
=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
mcv@wxs.nl
[/quote:508aca4eba]
If you go back to the Kretschmerian "Pre-IE stage", then you will have
to "change the rules" concerning what a "root" is... Only at this
price, you will find a "pseudo-root" expressing "what is dirty", at the
origin of Greek muia, Englich mud and mouse, Spanish mierda, etc. But
the theory concerning such "pseudo-roots" is far from being clarified
(In the "Pre-IE" stage, there were surely both vocalic and consonantal
variations of monosyllabic words).
grapheus
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| Douglas G. Kilday |
| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 3:10 pm |
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"Miguel Carrasquer" <mcv@wxs.nl> wrote ...
[quote:6c03d2b587]Tom Lawrance <> wrote:
The PIE root section in the back of my American Heritage Dictionary
attributes a host of IE words for flies to a root mu-. However,
instead of attributing Greek "muia" and "mua" directly to *mu-, as the
words suggest, it attributes them to a suffixed form of *mu-, *mus-ya.
Can anybody tell me the reason for this?
Many of the IE words are based on *mus- (e.g. Lat. musca,
Lith. muse:), some are based on *muH- (e.g. ON my:, Alb
mi(zë)).
The Greek word is based on *mus- (*mus-ih2 > *musya) because
*-sy- regularly develops to -y- (by way of -sy- > -hy-
-yy-), although sometimes we see an irregular development
*-sy- > *-y- > zero (e.g. the o-stem genitive *-osyo > -oio
[Homer] or -oo = -ou [Attic]). That explains both muia (the
standard form) and mua (never seen it, but its existence is
predictable).
Because simple *-y- always gives zero, a proto-form *muH-ih2
*mu(:)ya can explain <mua>, but could never have given
muia>.
[/quote:6c03d2b587]
<múa> is attested in Theophrastus (in the sense 'gall-insect') and Photinus,
according to Liddell & Scott. It is labeled an Attic form, but
Aristophanes, "the purest source of old Attic", has acc. pl. <muías> in
_Wasps_ 597.
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| Tom Lawrance |
| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 6:30 pm |
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[quote:ca6baf687f]If you go back to the Kretschmerian "Pre-IE stage", then you will have
to "change the rules" concerning what a "root" is... Only at this
price, you will find a "pseudo-root" expressing "what is dirty", at the
origin of Greek muia, Englich mud and mouse, Spanish mierda, etc. But
the theory concerning such "pseudo-roots" is far from being clarified
(In the "Pre-IE" stage, there were surely both vocalic and consonantal
variations of monosyllabic words).
grapheus
[/quote:ca6baf687f]
Yes! This is exactly what I ended up concluding inependently. Did
Kretschmer write in anything but German and/or are there any good
English translations or reviews of his theories.
Thanks very much for any additional insight you can give me into this
Pre-IE lingustic theory.
Tom
On 13 Mar 2005 08:36:37 -0800, grapheus@www.com wrote:
[quote:ca6baf687f]
Miguel Carrasquer wrote:
On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 09:04:53 -0800, Tom Lawrance <> wrote:
Thanks very much for the explanations. But why couldn't O.N. "my"
and
Gk. "mua" and "muia" have come directly from PIE *mu-, it seems like
this would have been the simplest way to have derived them?
If I understand correctly, you are searching for a UNIQUE, PRIMITIVE
root. This is fine.
But the problem is that, for this one has to go back to a linguistical
stage which is even "beyond the Kretschmerian Proto-IE stage" of the
European languages !...At at this stage, TRUE "roots" don't exist !..
If you want to stay at the "PIE-stage", you have to accept TWO
different roots : *mus- and *muH- , as it is said hereafter :
ON my: has a long vowel, so it must come from *muH- (there
is no *mu- "fly"). Greek muia < *musya I have already
explained.
=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
mcv@wxs.nl
[/quote:ca6baf687f]
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| mudra uka |
| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 6:06 am |
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What I found very interessting is the fact that you can find the word "mu"
in all slavonic languages ?
How does this come what do you mean TOM and what kan be mean the word "mu" ?
Fly in Slavonic Languages.
Russian: muha
http://sunsite.icm.edu.pl/untpdc/incubator/rus/tpmos/rus-leng.htm
Czech moucha (housefly) / fly = (lete'ti)
http://www.kamous.com/translator/s.asp?l=1760
Polish: muha
http://isoglossia.com/
(In Polish and in Slovene the word for fly is muha, which is feminine.
So fly is she. Muhasto in Slovene means ‘fly-like’ and by extension
‘flighty’ as in changeable (weather, a fickle person, etc.)
Ukrainian: muha
http://lingresua.tripod.com/cgi-bin/onlinedic.pl
Slovenian: muha
Croatian: muva, muha, muka
Bosnian: muva, muha, muka
Serbian: muva, muha
http://www.recnik.com/dict.cgi
Macedonian: mua - muva - muka (singular), mui - muvi - muki (plural)
http://www.idividi.com.mk/recnik/index.htm
Bulgarian: mua - muva - muka (singular), mui - muvi - muki (plural)
http://www.idividi.com.mk/recnik/index.htm
Old Bulgar Words:
http://members.tripod.com/~Groznijat/b_lang/bl_k_m.html
MUKHI
– Bulgarian apicultural name of the bees.
At first glance, it seems to be same as the Slavic (Bulgarian as well)
word MUKHA (‘a fly’),
but in Persian, in the Pamirian l-s the bees are called MUSH.
And the same word is also found in the lands of the former Volga Bulgars,
where the Mari MUKSH means ‘bees’ [RMS, 620].
Probably this name for the bees was connected with an old Bulgar
bee-keeping tradition with origins in the Persian, Pamirian regions.
East Indian Word for Fly especially Punjabi
http://www.punjabonline.com/servlet/library.dictionary?Action=English
translation for "fly" = m`KI, m`K
To know what means my dear Tom the word "mu" and whats the etymology of
this word is
you have to know and speak the language of the nobles people  )
A litle tip it's the same like the german word "mu-ke" or the english
word "mi-dge" ;-)
s-ara-svati s-ara-sveti !!!
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| o8TY |
| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:11 am |
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"mudra uka" <mudra@uka.com> wrote in message
news:42357076_3@news.bluewin.ch...
[quote:8f7054ad82]What I found very interessting is the fact that you can find the word "mu"
in all slavonic languages ?
How does this come what do you mean TOM and what kan be mean the word "mu"
?
Fly in Slavonic Languages.
Russian: muha
http://sunsite.icm.edu.pl/untpdc/incubator/rus/tpmos/rus-leng.htm
Czech moucha (housefly) / fly = (lete'ti)
http://www.kamous.com/translator/s.asp?l=1760
Polish: muha
http://isoglossia.com/
(In Polish and in Slovene the word for fly is muha, which is feminine.
So fly is she. Muhasto in Slovene means ‘fly-like’ and by extension
‘flighty’ as in changeable (weather, a fickle person, etc.)
Ukrainian: muha
http://lingresua.tripod.com/cgi-bin/onlinedic.pl
Slovenian: muha
Croatian: muva, muha, muka
Bosnian: muva, muha, muka
Serbian: muva, muha
http://www.recnik.com/dict.cgi
Macedonian: mua - muva - muka (singular), mui - muvi - muki (plural)
http://www.idividi.com.mk/recnik/index.htm
Bulgarian: mua - muva - muka (singular), mui - muvi - muki (plural)
http://www.idividi.com.mk/recnik/index.htm
Old Bulgar Words:
http://members.tripod.com/~Groznijat/b_lang/bl_k_m.html
MUKHI
– Bulgarian apicultural name of the bees.
At first glance, it seems to be same as the Slavic (Bulgarian as well)
word MUKHA (‘a fly’),
but in Persian, in the Pamirian l-s the bees are called MUSH.
And the same word is also found in the lands of the former Volga Bulgars,
where the Mari MUKSH means ‘bees’ [RMS, 620].
Probably this name for the bees was connected with an old Bulgar
bee-keeping tradition with origins in the Persian, Pamirian regions.
East Indian Word for Fly especially Punjabi
http://www.punjabonline.com/servlet/library.dictionary?Action=English
translation for "fly" = m`KI, m`K
To know what means my dear Tom the word "mu" and whats the etymology of
this word is
you have to know and speak the language of the nobles people )
A litle tip it's the same like the german word "mu-ke" or the english
word "mi-dge" ;-)
s-ara-svati s-ara-sveti !!!
[/quote:8f7054ad82]
And of course the mushroom Amanita muscaria is commonly called Fly Agaric,
whose name may derive from the Greek muagros (fly hunter) but which may in
turn be a diminution of the the Greek mu-agarikos (fly mushroom).
Similarly, our word mystery seems to derive from the Greek musterion
(mushroom-rising), a festival held in autumn!
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| Robert Blye |
| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 10:30 am |
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Mu- seems to have been derived onomatopoetically, by closing the lips
and vocalizing to duplicate the sound made by flies and bees, just as
hum was. It seems tha "mu-" therefore became attached to these
insects, and to sounds made in this way -- e.g., Gk. "muao," "muxo,"
"mukai," and mueo," for intiation into the mysteries, so-named for
the act of "keeping the lips closed," and "mustes" for the initiate
who was required to keep his mouth closed. Ditto for "mus" mussel,
named for keeping its mouth closed, and mus "mouse," for its tendency
to be as "secretive and/or quiet as a mouse." We therefore also have
L. muttire, to mutter, and reduplicative forms Old French "momer" to
pantomime. Dutch momelen, mumble, etc. etc.
Given the apparent onomatopoetic origins of all these IE words for
flies, and the ways the resulting root(s) were likely to have evolved,
is it possible that we're looking at many parallel formations here?
On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 01:11:07 +1100, "o8TY" <o8ty@hotmail.com> wrote:
[quote:18bc48ab02]"mudra uka" <mudra@uka.com> wrote in message
news:42357076_3@news.bluewin.ch...
What I found very interessting is the fact that you can find the word "mu"
in all slavonic languages ?
How does this come what do you mean TOM and what kan be mean the word "mu"
?
Fly in Slavonic Languages.
Russian: muha
http://sunsite.icm.edu.pl/untpdc/incubator/rus/tpmos/rus-leng.htm
Czech moucha (housefly) / fly = (lete'ti)
http://www.kamous.com/translator/s.asp?l=1760
Polish: muha
http://isoglossia.com/
(In Polish and in Slovene the word for fly is muha, which is feminine.
So fly is she. Muhasto in Slovene means ‘fly-like’ and by extension
‘flighty’ as in changeable (weather, a fickle person, etc.)
Ukrainian: muha
http://lingresua.tripod.com/cgi-bin/onlinedic.pl
Slovenian: muha
Croatian: muva, muha, muka
Bosnian: muva, muha, muka
Serbian: muva, muha
http://www.recnik.com/dict.cgi
Macedonian: mua - muva - muka (singular), mui - muvi - muki (plural)
http://www.idividi.com.mk/recnik/index.htm
Bulgarian: mua - muva - muka (singular), mui - muvi - muki (plural)
http://www.idividi.com.mk/recnik/index.htm
Old Bulgar Words:
http://members.tripod.com/~Groznijat/b_lang/bl_k_m.html
MUKHI
– Bulgarian apicultural name of the bees.
At first glance, it seems to be same as the Slavic (Bulgarian as well)
word MUKHA (‘a fly’),
but in Persian, in the Pamirian l-s the bees are called MUSH.
And the same word is also found in the lands of the former Volga Bulgars,
where the Mari MUKSH means ‘bees’ [RMS, 620].
Probably this name for the bees was connected with an old Bulgar
bee-keeping tradition with origins in the Persian, Pamirian regions.
East Indian Word for Fly especially Punjabi
http://www.punjabonline.com/servlet/library.dictionary?Action=English
translation for "fly" = m`KI, m`K
To know what means my dear Tom the word "mu" and whats the etymology of
this word is
you have to know and speak the language of the nobles people )
A litle tip it's the same like the german word "mu-ke" or the english
word "mi-dge" ;-)
s-ara-svati s-ara-sveti !!!
And of course the mushroom Amanita muscaria is commonly called Fly Agaric,
whose name may derive from the Greek muagros (fly hunter) but which may in
turn be a diminution of the the Greek mu-agarikos (fly mushroom).
Similarly, our word mystery seems to derive from the Greek musterion
(mushroom-rising), a festival held in autumn!
[/quote:18bc48ab02]
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| Yusuf B Gursey |
| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:59 pm |
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mudra uka wrote:
[quote:8e561e986e]What I found very interessting is the fact that you can find the word
"mu"
in all slavonic languages ?
Old Bulgar Words:
http://members.tripod.com/~Groznijat/b_lang/bl_k_m.html
[/quote:8e561e986e]
Dobrev should not be relied upon. when correct, he stumbles upon the
Alanian (Iranian) element in Slavic.
[quote:8e561e986e]
MUKHI
- Bulgarian apicultural name of the bees.
At first glance, it seems to be same as the Slavic (Bulgarian as
well)
word MUKHA ('a fly'),
but in Persian, in the Pamirian l-s the bees are called MUSH.
And the same word is also found in the lands of the former Volga
Bulgars,
where the Mari MUKSH means 'bees' [RMS, 620].
Probably this name for the bees was connected with an old Bulgar
bee-keeping tradition with origins in the Persian, Pamirian regions.
East Indian Word for Fly especially Punjabi
http://www.punjabonline.com/servlet/library.dictionary?Action=English
translation for "fly" = m`KI, m`K
To know what means my dear Tom the word "mu" and whats the etymology
of
this word is
you have to know and speak the language of the nobles people )
A litle tip it's the same like the german word "mu-ke" or the english
word "mi-dge" ;-)
s-ara-svati s-ara-sveti !!![/quote:8e561e986e]
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| Douglas G. Kilday |
| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 6:02 am |
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<grapheus@www.com> wrote ...
Miguel Carrasquer wrote:
[quote:e741d21fcb]F.'s poor attempt at
explaining Grk. poiweo: "I make" as from *potiweo: is
utterly incompatible with a genitive desinence -osyo.
[/quote:e741d21fcb]
NOT AT ALL !.. *YOU* see it as incompatible because you are REASONING
in a TOTAL NEGLECT of the COMPLEXITY of the FACTS. The same reasoning
would lead to "A PRIORI" NEGATE the existence of DATIVE in -si like
<polesi> in Classical Grek. Well, sorry, but THESE DATIVES DO EXIST
!!!!
[quote:e741d21fcb]
"Rgosyo" (or Argosyo, whatever: Faucounau has the supposed
author of the inscription, Ario:n, write his own name
indifferently as *a-ri-o, *o-ri-o or *ri-o)
[/quote:e741d21fcb]
WRONG ! Read J.F.'s book !.. a-ri-(h)o is the regular form --
o-ri-(h)o is a contracted form <ô a-ri-o> with the
article/demonstrative. As the form *ri-o with apokopê, it is the
result of the versification.
[quote:e741d21fcb]seems to imply
that -s- was maintained in the genitive ending. On the
other hand *s- in *sm.mos > (h)amos (in fact homos < *somos
"equal") would already have been lost. This is clearly
absurd: *-s- normally should drop in *-sy- before it drops
in initial position.
[/quote:e741d21fcb]
Once again, you are REASONING WITHOUT TAKING INTO ACCOUNT THE
COMPLEXITY of the CHANGES !..
a)- The root *SeM- : "equal" is a VERY ANCIENT root, and the initial s-
is SURELY "proto-IE. It has given German zu-sammen, but Latin similis,
with two different changes of the vowel. Why it would have not given in
Greek a form <*Hamos> , as in Avestan ?
b)- on the contrary, the -s- of the genitive *-syo is A LOT MORE RECENT
(It is NOT found in German or Latin, for instance).
There is therefore no "absurdity", as you are pretending with your
SIMPLISTIC REASONING, which TOTALLY NEGLECTS the DATATION PROBLEM !...
[...]
b)- just above must stand for baloney. The genitive *-osyo is found in
Sanskrit as <-asya> (e.g. <as'vasya> 'of a horse') and, while lost in Latin,
is retained occasionally in Faliscan with proper names: <kaisiosio> 'of
Caesius', <ieuotenosio> 'of Jevotenus', <popliosio ualesiosio> 'of Publius
Valerius'.
Being attested in Greek, Indic, and Italic, *-osyo can confidently be
assigned to PIE (or, since you are resolutely stuck in the 1920's,
Kretschmer's Protindogermanisch).
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| mudra uka |
| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 7:33 am |
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Hello o8TY !
I don't really belive that the word "mua"
that is used in the English, German, Dansk, Svedish, Slavonic, Indian
and other Languages to describe this Species here
http://freenet.meome.de/pictures/articles_2004/1086867283443aaadvTjsXEp1RK/Muecke.jpg
http://images.km.ru/images/animals/muha.jpg ( Low Baud rate )
http://images.google.ch/imgres?imgurl=http://www.ricardos-animalsite.de/jpgs/fliege.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.ricardos-animalsite.de/insekten.htm&h=358&w=270&sz=16&tbnid=B24mMpblAJwJ:&tbnh=117&tbnw=88&start=9&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfliege%26hl%3Dde%26lr%3D%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:de-DE:official%26sa%3DG
had really something to do with the Greek Language or something else
like this.
It woold be more speak, like Jeacques also has did, that the Word "MU"
in the reality is derivated from the Egypt word to describe the dead
People in Egypt.
The so called MU-MMUys from which after the dead the so called MUas has
derivated.
However i see that you have something to do with the Greek Culture.
Thats very nice because i ask me the hole time how does the Greek People
explain the Nazi Sign in her Culture.
Here is the Nazi Sign the so called "SWASTIKA" that was used at most in
the time of the bigest loser called Hitler.
http://compilers.cs.ucla.edu/~kchang/pictures/ww2.germany/Swastika_Formation_11th_Nuremberg_Rally.jpg
http://www.johnankerberg.org/Articles/new-age/images/NA08023.jpg
And here is the same NAZI Sign the so Called "SWASTIKA"
together with the 16 Ray Sun.
The 16 Ray Sun is surrounded by the Swatika Sign that rotate in the
clockwise .
http://tlfe.org.uk/imart/pattern/Images/Gold-Cup2.jpg
http://tlfe.org.uk/imart/pattern/pattern.html
Gold cup from the Aigina treasure
Minoan, about 1850-1550 BC
From Aigina, off the south-east coast of Greece, Aegean Sea
How can this happen that in ancient Greece was used such a Sign.
Is the Swastika Sign of Greece Culture and Origin ?
I thank you in advance for your Answer.
Grettings mudra uka.
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| o8TY |
| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 8:30 am |
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"mudra uka" <mudra@uka.com> wrote in message
news:4236d65b$1_1@news.bluewin.ch...
[quote:37d61f4378]Hello o8TY !
I don't really belive that the word "mua"
that is used in the English, German, Dansk, Svedish, Slavonic, Indian
and other Languages to describe this Species here
http://freenet.meome.de/pictures/articles_2004/1086867283443aaadvTjsXEp1RK/M[/quote:37d61f4378]
uecke.jpg
[quote:37d61f4378]
http://images.km.ru/images/animals/muha.jpg ( Low Baud rate )
http://images.google.ch/imgres?imgurl=http://www.ricardos-animalsite.de/jpgs[/quote:37d61f4378]
/fliege.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.ricardos-animalsite.de/insekten.htm&h=358&w
=270&sz=16&tbnid=B24mMpblAJwJ:&tbnh=117&tbnw=88&start=9&prev=/images%3Fq%3Df
liege%26hl%3Dde%26lr%3D%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:de-DE:offic
ial%26sa%3DG
[quote:37d61f4378]
had really something to do with the Greek Language or something else
like this.
[/quote:37d61f4378]
I dont see why not.
[quote:37d61f4378]
It woold be more speak, like Jeacques also has did, that the Word "MU"
in the reality is derivated from the Egypt word to describe the dead
People in Egypt.
The so called MU-MMUys from which after the dead the so called MUas has
derivated.
[/quote:37d61f4378]
Not according to the OED.
[quote:37d61f4378]
However i see that you have something to do with the Greek Culture.
Thats very nice because i ask me the hole time how does the Greek People
explain the Nazi Sign in her Culture.
Here is the Nazi Sign the so called "SWASTIKA" that was used at most in
the time of the bigest loser called Hitler.
http://compilers.cs.ucla.edu/~kchang/pictures/ww2.germany/Swastika_Formation[/quote:37d61f4378]
_11th_Nuremberg_Rally.jpg
[quote:37d61f4378]http://www.johnankerberg.org/Articles/new-age/images/NA08023.jpg
And here is the same NAZI Sign the so Called "SWASTIKA"
together with the 16 Ray Sun.
The 16 Ray Sun is surrounded by the Swatika Sign that rotate in the
clockwise .
[/quote:37d61f4378]
The 16 ray sun could represent the underside of a gilled mushroom.
[quote:37d61f4378]http://tlfe.org.uk/imart/pattern/Images/Gold-Cup2.jpg
http://tlfe.org.uk/imart/pattern/pattern.html
Gold cup from the Aigina treasure
Minoan, about 1850-1550 BC
From Aigina, off the south-east coast of Greece, Aegean Sea
How can this happen that in ancient Greece was used such a Sign.
Is the Swastika Sign of Greece Culture and Origin ?
[/quote:37d61f4378]
Greek myth may suggest as much, especially as Dionysos is said to have raged
as far as India.
FWIW Musolini's fascists adopted the Kreten double axe as their symbol.
[quote:37d61f4378]I thank you in advance for your Answer.
Grettings mudra uka.[/quote:37d61f4378]
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| Guest |
| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 2:09 pm |
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Douglas G. Kilday wrote:
[quote:f517ecc35a]grapheus@www.com> wrote ...
Miguel Carrasquer wrote:
F.'s poor attempt at
explaining Grk. poiweo: "I make" as from *potiweo: is
utterly incompatible with a genitive desinence -osyo.
NOT AT ALL !.. *YOU* see it as incompatible because you are
REASONING
in a TOTAL NEGLECT of the COMPLEXITY of the FACTS. The same reasoning
would lead to "A PRIORI" NEGATE the existence of DATIVE in -si like
polesi> in Classical Grek. Well, sorry, but THESE DATIVES DO EXIST
!!!!
"Rgosyo" (or Argosyo, whatever: Faucounau has the supposed
author of the inscription, Ario:n, write his own name
indifferently as *a-ri-o, *o-ri-o or *ri-o)
WRONG ! Read J.F.'s book !.. a-ri-(h)o is the regular form --
o-ri-(h)o is a contracted form <ô a-ri-o> with the
article/demonstrative. As the form *ri-o with apokopê, it is the
result of the versification.
seems to imply
that -s- was maintained in the genitive ending. On the
other hand *s- in *sm.mos > (h)amos (in fact homos < *somos
"equal") would already have been lost. This is clearly
absurd: *-s- normally should drop in *-sy- before it drops
in initial position.
Once again, you are REASONING WITHOUT TAKING INTO ACCOUNT THE
COMPLEXITY of the CHANGES !..
a)- The root *SeM- : "equal" is a VERY ANCIENT root, and the initial
s-
is SURELY "proto-IE. It has given German zu-sammen, but Latin
similis,
with two different changes of the vowel. Why it would have not given
in
Greek a form <*Hamos> , as in Avestan ?
b)- on the contrary, the -s- of the genitive *-syo is A LOT MORE
RECENT
(It is NOT found in German or Latin, for instance).
There is therefore no "absurdity", as you are pretending with your
SIMPLISTIC REASONING, which TOTALLY NEGLECTS the DATATION PROBLEM
!...
[...]
b)- just above must stand for baloney. The genitive *-osyo is found
in
Sanskrit as <-asya> (e.g. <as'vasya> 'of a horse') and, while lost in
Latin,
is retained occasionally in Faliscan with proper names: <kaisiosio
'of
Caesius', <ieuotenosio> 'of Jevotenus', <popliosio ualesiosio> 'of
Publius
Valerius'.
Being attested in Greek, Indic, and Italic, *-osyo can confidently be
assigned to PIE (or, since you are resolutely stuck in the 1920's,
Kretschmer's Protindogermanisch).
[/quote:f517ecc35a]
Sorry, but you did not understand the essential of the Kretschmerian
Theory, with its (schematic) three "linguistical layers" : "Pre-IE",
"Proto-IE", "IE stricto sensu" !..
The genitive *-osyo, being as you wrote attested in Greek, Indic and
Italic, belongs to the THIRD (and later) layer, the "Stricto sensu IE"
one.
The same is true for the root *SeM- : "equal", but as it can be found
not only in Greek, Indic and Italic as *-osyo, but also in Germanic,
Albanian, etc., IT IS OLDER than *-osyo.
Because for the "IE stricto sensu" languages, P. Kretschmer accepted
the "Stamm-baum" established by A. Schleicher. In this "Stamm-baum",
the "IE stricto sensu" stem has two branches A and B : A = the
"Aryo-griechisch-Italo-keltisch" branch -- B = the
"Slavisch-Germanisch" branch. The root *SeM- goes back to the
"Stamm", the genitive *-osyo belongs to the more recent A-branch.
Please, read again the Paul Kretschmer's work...
grapheus
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