Traces of Ancient (30,000 BP) Hunters Found in Siberia

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Traces of Ancient (30,000 BP) Hunters Found in Siberia

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Doug Weller

Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2004 3:56 pm

Guest

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/ap20040101_705.html

"Russian scientists uncovered a 30,000-year-old site where ancient hunters
lived on the Yana River in Siberia, some 300 miles north of the Arctic
Circle and not far from the Bering land bridge that then connected Asia
with North America."

Doug

Bob Keeter

Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2004 4:53 pm

Guest

Yea doggies! Perhaps we now we have something to sink our teeth into!

IIRC, 30kya mght just correspond pretty closely with the point at which
Beringia might have opened up a bit (right before the heaviest glaciation)
only to close up (actually flood out) again after 15ky or so of perhaps
intemittent land bridges. At least they have broken the "barrier" so that
it will not be all that difficult to convince people to look back a bit
earlier
in time for Siberian/Alaskan finds! 8-)

Regards
bk

"Doug Weller" <dweller@ramtops.thisremove.co.uk> wrote in message
news:nwgpcyiyy29$.12rto48nh8cm1.dlg@40tude.net...
[quote:ba6040befe]http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/ap20040101_705.html

"Russian scientists uncovered a 30,000-year-old site where ancient hunters
lived on the Yana River in Siberia, some 300 miles north of the Arctic
Circle and not far from the Bering land bridge that then connected Asia
with North America."

Doug[/quote:ba6040befe]

Daryl Krupa

Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2004 9:49 pm

Guest

"Bob Keeter" <rkeeter@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<bF0Jb.19355$IM3.17820@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
[quote:3d7ef3304f]Yea doggies! Perhaps we now we have something to sink our teeth into!

IIRC, 30kya mght just correspond pretty closely with the point at which
Beringia might have opened up a bit (right before the heaviest glaciation)
only to close up (actually flood out) again after 15ky or so of perhaps
intemittent land bridges. At least they have broken the "barrier" so that
it will not be all that difficult to convince people to look back a bit
earlier
in time for Siberian/Alaskan finds! Cool

[/quote:3d7ef3304f]
bk:
A useful curve:

http://instaar.colorado.edu/deltaforce/projects/geo_clutter/ice_volumes.jpg

Daryl Krupa

MIB529

Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 6:40 pm

Guest

Doug Weller <dweller@ramtops.thisremove.co.uk> wrote in message news:<nwgpcyiyy29$.12rto48nh8cm1.dlg@40tude.net>...
[quote:1ebdeaf9b4]http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/ap20040101_705.html

"Russian scientists uncovered a 30,000-year-old site where ancient hunters
lived on the Yana River in Siberia, some 300 miles north of the Arctic
Circle and not far from the Bering land bridge that then connected Asia
with North America."
[/quote:1ebdeaf9b4]
One: ABC News has been on my *plonk* list ever since the article claiming
Indians were inbred neanderthals.
Two: That almost triples current ages for habitation of Siberia. I'd like
to examine the site myself.
Three: It's still not old enough, according to Cinq-Mars.

Doug Weller

Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 12:35 pm

Guest

On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 16:11:33 GMT, Bob Keeter wrote:
[SNIP]
[quote:d679c63135]Yep. All packed and ready to go. Given that, the only encouragement needed
might have been an eastward wandering herd of mammoth, reindeer, or
whatever. Even with that, Im still not convinced that we wont find a
coastal path as well. Making the trip by islandhopping (actually more like
"pennensula hopping") along Beringia, making landfalls where the land
extends beyond the ice pack, and hunting seals, just feels way too easy.
[/quote:d679c63135]
And Oppenheimer argues that people were trapped within Beringia, and only
after the ice thawed made it to North America.

Doug

MIB529

Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 5:02 pm

Guest

Doug Weller <dweller@ramtops.thisremove.co.uk> wrote in message news:<1k0kushlhhcb2$.lb5e3bs52fsc.dlg@40tude.net>...
[quote:4ee4184080]On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 16:11:33 GMT, Bob Keeter wrote:
[SNIP]
Yep. All packed and ready to go. Given that, the only encouragement needed
might have been an eastward wandering herd of mammoth, reindeer, or
whatever. Even with that, Im still not convinced that we wont find a
coastal path as well. Making the trip by islandhopping (actually more like
"pennensula hopping") along Beringia, making landfalls where the land
extends beyond the ice pack, and hunting seals, just feels way too easy.

And Oppenheimer argues that people were trapped within Beringia, and only
after the ice thawed made it to North America.
[/quote:4ee4184080]
And Oppenheimer's an idiot. Read my previous post about the crural index.

Day Brown

Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 1:52 am

Guest

firstjois wrote:

[quote:01d5279d06]: Lapps .790
: Belgians .825
: South African whites .833
: Yugoslavs .838
: Melanesians .848
: Egyptians .849
: Pygmies .851
: American blacks .853
: South African blacks .861

Cool. Did that happen? Did tall and skinny guys make it to Siberia 30,000
BP? My Unk is in Hunan, China for a while and says bleeding and scarring
chilblains are present on most of the university age population (hands and
some faces) and he's not sure about frost bite on their toes. He says his
toes are just about killing him. That kind of cold would certainly make a
hunter anxious to be in Siberia during the summer.
Did anybody publish the ratio for H. Neanderthals?[/quote:01d5279d06]

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Gerrit Hanenburg

Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 5:05 am

Guest

Day Brown <daybrown@hypertech.net> wrote:

[quote:e33e7fd02b]firstjois wrote:

: Lapps .790
: Belgians .825
: South African whites .833
: Yugoslavs .838
: Melanesians .848
: Egyptians .849
: Pygmies .851
: American blacks .853
: South African blacks .861

Cool. Did that happen? Did tall and skinny guys make it to Siberia 30,000
BP? My Unk is in Hunan, China for a while and says bleeding and scarring
chilblains are present on most of the university age population (hands and
some faces) and he's not sure about frost bite on their toes. He says his
toes are just about killing him. That kind of cold would certainly make a
hunter anxious to be in Siberia during the summer.

Did anybody publish the ratio for H. Neanderthals?
[/quote:e33e7fd02b]
Yep, Erik Trinkaus (1981):

Neanderthals .789

Also interesting:

Early Homo sapiens from Skhul-Qafzeh .846
Homo erectus from Nariokotome .880

The latter would be hypertropical by modern human standards (i.e.
outside the modern human range).

Trinkaus, E. (1981). Neanderthal limb proportions and cold adaptation.
In Aspects of Human Evolution, ed. C.B. Stringer, pp. 187-224. London:
Taylor and Francis.

Gerrit

MIB529

Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:28 pm

Guest

Gerrit Hanenburg <G.Hanenburg@inter.nl.nomail.net.> wrote in message news:<7ldivvsj6p2vk26a5f13o3fhjjr9d986ik@4ax.com>...
[quote:9437f2cc4f]Day Brown <daybrown@hypertech.net> wrote:

firstjois wrote:

: Lapps .790
: Belgians .825
: South African whites .833
: Yugoslavs .838
: Melanesians .848
: Egyptians .849
: Pygmies .851
: American blacks .853
: South African blacks .861

Cool. Did that happen? Did tall and skinny guys make it to Siberia 30,000
BP? My Unk is in Hunan, China for a while and says bleeding and scarring
chilblains are present on most of the university age population (hands and
some faces) and he's not sure about frost bite on their toes. He says his
toes are just about killing him. That kind of cold would certainly make a
hunter anxious to be in Siberia during the summer.

Did anybody publish the ratio for H. Neanderthals?

Yep, Erik Trinkaus (1981):

Neanderthals .789

Also interesting:

Early Homo sapiens from Skhul-Qafzeh .846
Homo erectus from Nariokotome .880

The latter would be hypertropical by modern human standards (i.e.
outside the modern human range).

Trinkaus, E. (1981). Neanderthal limb proportions and cold adaptation.
In Aspects of Human Evolution, ed. C.B. Stringer, pp. 187-224. London:
Taylor and Francis.
[/quote:9437f2cc4f]
In fact, that's where I got the data for modern populations, Trinkaus'
article.

One thing I've always wondered about is, why do anthropologists still
publish the cephalic index all the time (The cephalic index as a useful
measure was discredited in 1896.) but rarely publish proportions like
the brachial and crural index? (It can, after all, give us an idea what
temperatures were like for neanderthals.)

Philip Deitiker

Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2004 9:59 am

Guest

On 5 Jan 2004 17:28:21 -0800, icycalmca@yahoo.com (Daryl
Krupa) did some sarious thank'n and scribbled:

[quote:c61dcb7052]"Bob Keeter" <rkeeter@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<VQBJb.22049$IM3.5758@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
"Daryl Krupa" <icycalmca@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c70365ef.0401022332.4478fefa@posting.google.com...
"Bob Keeter" <rkeeter@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:<Fj5Jb.4582$6B.687@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net>...

SNippage. . .
Yer Welum, Ah'm Shoeure.

West Texas? Maybe Oklahoma? 8-)

I was thinking Tex-Mex drawl, as spoken by a grandson of German
immigrants.
"Ah'm goin' to Luchenbach, Texas,
Vhere dere ain't nobody ffveelin' no pain."
[/quote:c61dcb7052]
That ain't Tex-Mex.

This is Tex-Mex

Donde-ta mi chevy.
(Where's my car?)

That above is west texas version of southern draw.

Bob Keeter

Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2004 9:58 pm

Guest

"Daryl Krupa" <icycalmca@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c70365ef.0401051728.3ee920fa@posting.google.com...
Snippage. . . . . .

[quote:164efd04a1]That really only leaves one question:
What did they do with the bodies of the witnesses
(i.e., the descendants of the earlier waves of invaders)?

Explain please? Are you perhaps suggesting that even if these 30kya
hunters
had made the trip that there MIGHT have been earlier visitors? 8-)

Yep: the South American guys think that they might have evidence of
habitation back to almost 50 ka BP.

[/quote:164efd04a1]
Now THAT really would have the Clovis crew wringing their hands, wouldnt it!
;-)

I would have settled for a mere "incontrovertible" 20kya! But then if the
Aborigines
made it "Down Under" somewhere in there at or before 50kya, no telling what
might
have been going on up north. I suspect that there might have been at least
one or
two significant "water gaps" even at the lowest of low tides in the south
Pacific
route whereas the northern route might well have been from one island
to the next visible island (or one ice free promotory to the next visible
promotory)
for a very long time.

Regards
bk

pete

Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 8:04 pm

Guest

MIB529 wrote:

[quote:bd8d63c000]Stupid question: Why does everyone think Clovis people 'replaced' the
invaders? (This is especially funny in the case of Kennewick man, who
is 2000 years AFTER Clovis.)
[/quote:bd8d63c000]
I think that Clovis was first developed around the Gulf coast
by whoever was already there at the time.

http://www.research.fsu.edu/researchr/winter2002/floridasfirstpeople.html

“We don't see the artifacts of early Clovis culture in the
far Northwest or Alaska. From my perspective, the best
evidence of Paleo-Indian continuity through time
anywhere (in the western hemisphere) is in the southeast.
And it's with these people, the people who made
fluted-point projectiles that we are trying to discover offshore.”

--
pete

Daryl Krupa

Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 11:56 pm

Guest

man_in_black529@yahoo.com (MIB529) wrote in message news:<4ad78f65.0401071502.6b20efe@posting.google.com>...
[quote:eb72be9e58]icycalmca@yahoo.com (Daryl Krupa) wrote in message news:<c70365ef.0401051728.3ee920fa@posting.google.com>...

Yep: the South American guys think that they might have evidence of
habitation back to almost 50 ka BP.

Almost 60k actually, from what I've read.
snip[/quote:eb72be9e58]

Here, it's 53 and 55 ka BP radiocarbon dates,
and maybe more than 56 ka BP, which would be
more than 59,000 years old, yes:

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s990775.htm

Original scientific article:

G. M. Santos, M. I. Bird, F. Parenti, L. K. Fifield, N. Guidon and P.
A. Hausladen

A revised chronology of the lowest occupation layer of Pedra Furada
Rock Shelter, Piauí, Brazil: the Pleistocene peopling of the Americas

Quaternary Science Reviews
Volume 22, Issues 21-22 , November-December 2003, Pages 2303-2310

doi:10.1016/S0277-3791(03)00205-1

Daryl Krupa

MIB529

Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2004 4:24 pm

Guest

pete <pfiland@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:<3FFCAC9F.42F6@mindspring.com>...
[quote:de0842d67c]MIB529 wrote:

Stupid question: Why does everyone think Clovis people 'replaced' the
invaders? (This is especially funny in the case of Kennewick man, who
is 2000 years AFTER Clovis.)

I think that Clovis was first developed around the Gulf coast
by whoever was already there at the time.

http://www.research.fsu.edu/researchr/winter2002/floridasfirstpeople.html

?We don't see the artifacts of early Clovis culture in the
far Northwest or Alaska. From my perspective, the best
evidence of Paleo-Indian continuity through time
anywhere (in the western hemisphere) is in the southeast.
And it's with these people, the people who made
fluted-point projectiles that we are trying to discover offshore.?
[/quote:de0842d67c]
Which is what I've been saying. Clovis is typically in the Southeast;
the only way Clovis people could 'replace' anyone is trans-Atlantic
contact. Of course, then again, the whole idea of 'replacement' is
monumentally stupid itself, as I already said.

MIB529

Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2004 4:46 pm

Guest

icycalmca@yahoo.com (Daryl Krupa) wrote in message news:<c70365ef.0401072056.2653a69d@posting.google.com>...
[quote:c9703c6748]Yep: the South American guys think that they might have evidence of
habitation back to almost 50 ka BP.

Almost 60k actually, from what I've read.
snip

Here, it's 53 and 55 ka BP radiocarbon dates,
and maybe more than 56 ka BP, which would be
more than 59,000 years old, yes:

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s990775.htm

Original scientific article:

G. M. Santos, M. I. Bird, F. Parenti, L. K. Fifield, N. Guidon and P.
A. Hausladen

A revised chronology of the lowest occupation layer of Pedra Furada
Rock Shelter, Piauí, Brazil: the Pleistocene peopling of the Americas

Quaternary Science Reviews
Volume 22, Issues 21-22 , November-December 2003, Pages 2303-2310

doi:10.1016/S0277-3791(03)00205-1
[/quote:c9703c6748]
The 'natural fire' argument was just a typical ad hoc hypothesis.
Usually, people who don't like a fact (in this case signs of human
habitation in Brazil over 50,000 years ago) will develop a way to
'explain away' said fact. Ad hoc hypotheses are usually half-assed,
and this one's no different since we can test whether or not it
was caused by a natural fire.

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