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Science Forum Index » Languages Forum » Q: Two Japanese color terms
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| Javier BF |
Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 3:08 pm |
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Quote: Anyway, the original point was that red/blue marks
on taps stand for "hot"/"cold", not for "dangerous"/
"safe" (AFAICT, blue isn't routinely used to mean
"safe"). When suggested to devise a colour code for
"hot"/"cold" taps, LSD proposed a yellow/green code
meaning "dangerous"/"safe" instead. Then I pointed
out that the hot-water tap is not a danger if you
just heat tap-water to _usable_ levels and not to
crazy dangerous levels, so the dangerous/safe code
is only meaningful to those who apparently like to
live a risky life and routinely heat their tap-water
to dangerous levels.
No. What I am trying to point out (if you listen for a while), is that
it doesn't matter about OUR water temperature. Somewhere, sometime, when
someone was color-coding early faucets, he had hot water of some
temperature. *His* opinion on whether *his* hot water was dangerous is
the only opinion that matters in this discussion. Intuitive to you is
irrelevant. Intuitive to me is irrelevant. Intuitive to him is relevant.
Do you have any data on what a typical hot water temperature was when
the first red/blue faucet was made? I bet that the hot water was coming
straight out of a poorly regulated boiler, and was pretty dangerous at
that time. What has happened since, in the absence of time travel, is
irrelevant.
But we _know_ it wasn't the case that the colour
code was chosen to represent "danger"/"safe",
because that would have been red/green instead
of red/blue. The colours represent temperature,
not safety, and it's easy to see why: the former
is the straightforward association for hot/cold
water taps, the latter would be rather convoluted.
And that was my point.
Cheers,
Javier |
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| Javier BF |
Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 3:20 pm |
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Quote: Things themselves do not have colour. They only
reflect light.
Interesting. So when I see the sun, what is the source of the light it
is reflecting?
I'm disappointed in Javier, he had that perfectly good straight line
and only managed an eff-off in reply.
Sorry, but it wasn't the case that I didn't manage
I better reply, because I wasn't replying to the
comment of that troll, I was just telling him to
leave me alone at last. Didn't you read his other
message where he explicitly told Nathan that his
only intention was to make fun of him? He's not
here to discuss anything seroiusly, he's just
trolling around. The point he made above is stupid
and was meant purely as a provocation; everybody
can infere from context that I was referring to
things that do not emit light themselves.
Cheers,
Javier |
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| Javier BF |
Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 4:33 pm |
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Sorry, I had missed the last part of your message.
Quote: How about,
"I'm not sure, why don't you take a nice long look one
sunny day and get back to us with your conclusions?
Yes, that would have been a nice reply, but I wasn't
in the mood to think up a nice reply for that troll.
Quote: $BNI$$;R$O??;w$7$J$$$G$/$@$5$$!#(B"
I'm at sci.lang and my Japanese is so far very basic.
The sentence is "Yoi ko wa maneshinaide kudasai",
correct? But what does it mean? "Yoi ko" means 'good
boy', "kudasai" means 'please', "mane"/"maneshi" means
'mimicry'/'copycat' and if I remember correctly 'nai'
is a verbal negative; but I can't make sense out of
the whole.
Cheers,
Javier |
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| Paul Blay |
Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 4:59 pm |
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"Javier BF" wrote ...
Quote: Sorry, I had missed the last part of your message.
How about,
"I'm not sure, why don't you take a nice long look one
sunny day and get back to us with your conclusions?
Yes, that would have been a nice reply, but I wasn't
in the mood to think up a nice reply for that troll.
Well to mangle an old saying, reply once to a troll -
shame on him. Reply 20 times to a troll - shame on you.
You can't say I didn't drop a hint
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=bu3dva%24a24%241%248300dec7%40news.demon.co.uk
Quote: $BNI$$;R$O??;w$7$J$$$G$/$@$5$$!#(B"
I'm at sci.lang and my Japanese is so far very basic.
The sentence is "Yoi ko wa maneshinaide kudasai",
correct?
Correct.
Quote: But what does it mean? "Yoi ko" means 'good
boy', "kudasai" means 'please', "mane"/"maneshi" means
'mimicry'/'copycat' and if I remember correctly 'nai'
is a verbal negative; but I can't make sense out of
the whole.
"Good kids - don't try this at home."
It's a phrase often used in kids shows / anime when the
characters do something stupid / dangerous.
You had all the right bits in there. |
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| Javier BF |
Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2004 1:11 am |
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Quote: The sentence is "Yoi ko wa maneshinaide kudasai",
[...]
But what does it mean? "Yoi ko" means 'good
boy', "kudasai" means 'please', "mane"/"maneshi" means
'mimicry'/'copycat' and if I remember correctly 'nai'
is a verbal negative; but I can't make sense out of
the whole.
"Good kids - don't try this at home."
It's a phrase often used in kids shows / anime when the
characters do something stupid / dangerous.
You had all the right bits in there.
The main problem I had was "maneshinaide". I couldn't
find the verb "mane suru", only "mane" and "maneshi",
so I was thinking it was a stative verb meaning "to
be a copycat" and "Good boy, don't be a copycat" didn't
seem to make sense here. Also, I wasn't even sure that
the sentence was really an imperative, because I would
expect some kind of vocative instead of "wa".
Cheers,
Javier |
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| LEE Sau Dan |
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 3:44 am |
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Quote: "Nathan" == Nathan Sanders <nathansanders@verizon.net> writes:
Nathan> In article
Nathan> <m38yk7vnum.fsf@mika.informatik.uni-freiburg.de>,
Nathan> LEE Sau Dan <danlee@informatik.uni-freiburg.de> wrote:
Nathan> If forced topick one, light blue, the color of the sky,
Nathan> which is our largest field of air.
Quote: When you look in the other direction -- from an aeroplane down
to ground, you see green, brown, grey, etc. Should you also
consider these colours instead of light blue, then?
Nathan> Why would I consider the color of the ground to be a good
Nathan> representation for the color of air?
For exactly the same reason that you consider the colour of the sky to
be a good representation of air. (Sorry, that's not the colour of
air. Air is colourless.)
Nathan> Then replace every use of "heat" with "high temperature".
Nathan> Same difference. Use whatever term you want.
In the terms "high temperature fusion", and "high temperature
superconductor/superliquid", how high the temperature do you expect to
be?
--
Lee Sau Dan +Z05biGVm-(Big5) ~{@nJX6X~}(HZ)
E-mail: danlee@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee |
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| LEE Sau Dan |
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 3:46 am |
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Quote: "Peter" == Peter T Daniels <grammatim@worldnet.att.net> writes:
Dunno about Munich. In Freiburg and on German TV, I see the
fire trucks painted bright orange. I would say it's
"fluorescent orange" -- a calque from a Cantonese colour term.
Peter> Why did I think you're in Munich?
I don't know. I've never mentioned or implied that I'm in Munich
during this 2.5 years I'm in Germany. And I've only been to Munich
once, far back in 1995. Neither have I ever given any examples of the
Munich dialect here in sci.lang, since I know nothing (other than that
it is closer to Austrian) about that dialect.
--
Lee Sau Dan +Z05biGVm-(Big5) ~{@nJX6X~}(HZ)
E-mail: danlee@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee |
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| LEE Sau Dan |
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 3:50 am |
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Quote: "Nathan" == Nathan Sanders <nathansanders@verizon.net> writes:
Nathan> Of course, almost anything can have a reddish tinge under
Nathan> red lighting,
No. Black remains black, by definition.
Nathan> or if dipped in red dye,
It depends on whether the dye is opaque. If not, then it won't turn
black into red.
Nathan> or if photographed through a red filter,
Again, black is a common exception.
Nathan> or if a picture of it is altered through PhotoShop.
Obviously. A more low-tech method is to use opaque red things
(e.g. paint) to cover the black area of a photo. The technique of
using water paint (?) to add colours to b/w photos is nothing new.
I
--
Lee Sau Dan +Z05biGVm-(Big5) ~{@nJX6X~}(HZ)
E-mail: danlee@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee |
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| LEE Sau Dan |
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 3:52 am |
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Quote: "Javier" == Javier BF <uaxuctum@hotmail.com> writes:
Javier> I said "hot water" from a tap, not "near boiling water".
Quote: It depends on the source of hot water your tap is drawing
from.
...
Javier> Yes, people who do that whatever their nationality and
Javier> cultural background are rash and irresponsible, apart from
Javier> wildly energy-spendthrift. 70ºC is already more than
Javier> necessarily hot for any household use and requires to be
Javier> mixed with quite an amount of cold water to turn it
Javier> usable. I seldom if ever heat tap water above 50ºC; around
Javier> 40ºC does pretty well most of the time.
Yes, I don't disgree on that.
But that doesn't change the *fact* that hot water from the tap in some
places can hurt.
Javier> No one needs dangerously hot water to have a shower.
Quote: So, you only use hot water for a shower?
Javier> Certainly, I never take boiling or near-boiling water
Javier> directly from the tap.
You aren't answering the question.
Javier> Water that hot is only needed for cooking and
Javier> sterilization, and for that of course it is heated in a
Javier> pot on a stove, not taken directly from the tap at that
Javier> crazy temperature.
Why not?
--
Lee Sau Dan 李守敦(Big5) ~{@nJX6X~}(HZ)
E-mail: danlee@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee |
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| LEE Sau Dan |
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 3:54 am |
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Quote: "GEO" == GEO <Me@home.here> writes:
GEO> On 16 Jan 2004 17:51:55 +0100, LEE Sau Dan
GEO> <danlee@informatik.uni-freiburg.de> wrote:
GEO> In my corner of the world fire trucks are still greenish
GEO> yellow, and police lights are blue and white.
Quote: May I know _which_ corner it is? :)
GEO> Alberta, Canada
I know some people from (actually, emigrates form HK to) Calgary and
they never mentioned that "surprising" thing to me. :)
--
Lee Sau Dan +Z05biGVm-(Big5) ~{@nJX6X~}(HZ)
E-mail: danlee@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee |
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| LEE Sau Dan |
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 3:57 am |
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Quote: "Javier" == Javier BF <uaxuctum@hotmail.com> writes:
Javier> If you are so crazy as to heat tap water at near boiling
Javier> point, it would be no surprise that you'd also place your
Javier> hand under the faucet and let that 90ºC-hot water flow
Javier> directly on it. What about immersing your hand in liquid
Javier> nitrogen? Would you still be OK?
Liquid nitrogen doesn't come out of the taps in my house. Dangerously
hot water does.
Javier> The normal temperature of the human body is just above
Javier> 35ºC,
It's 37 degrees Celcius, 98.6 Fahrenheit.
Javier> Real cold water feels sharp as a razor when you place your
Javier> hand under the faucet and let the water flow on it, after
Javier> a few moments you need to draw your hand away out of sheer
Javier> pain.
I don't feel it "sharp". That's again a linguocultural thing, I think.
--
Lee Sau Dan 李守敦(Big5) ~{@nJX6X~}(HZ)
E-mail: danlee@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee |
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| LEE Sau Dan |
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 4:02 am |
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Quote: "Javier" == Javier BF <uaxuctum@hotmail.com> writes:
Javier> And why do you heat your tap-water to a temperature you
Javier> know can hurt you?
Why do you heat your oven to a temperature you know can hurt you?
Javier> You need to mix it with cold water in order to use it,
Javier> don't you?
You need to let the food cool down before you can stuff it into your
mouth, needn't you?
Javier> So why do you waste energy and time heating it up to 70ºC
Javier> only to mix it with cold water to reduce its temperature
Javier> to say 40ºC?
So why do you waste energy to preheat the oven up to 200 degrees
Celcius, only to let the food eventually cool down to around 40
degrees before you can put it into your mouth?
Javier> Where's the logic in that? Or do you actually use 70ºC-hot
Javier> water in masochistic showers?
What's the logic there, too?
Javier> (AFAICT, blue isn't routinely used to mean "safe"). When
Javier> suggested to devise a colour code for "hot"/"cold" taps,
Javier> LSD proposed a yellow/green code meaning
Javier> "dangerous"/"safe" instead. Then I pointed out that the
Javier> hot-water tap is not a danger if you just heat tap-water
Javier> to _usable_ levels and not to crazy dangerous levels, so
Javier> the dangerous/safe code is only meaningful to those who
Javier> apparently like to live a risky life and routinely heat
Javier> their tap-water to dangerous levels. I certainly do not
Javier> take those risks and had never thought of my hot-water tap
Javier> as a danger, so it wouldn't be any intuitive for me to
Javier> have it marked with a code that is supposed to mean
Javier> "dangerous" instead of "hot"; to me, "dangerous water"
Javier> seems to refer to non-potable water. While everybody can
Javier> understand the logic of marking the hot/cold-water taps
Javier> with a code for "hot"/"cold".
As long as there EXISTS people who really heat the water to dangerous
levels before letting it out of the hot water tap, it IS something
potentially harmful.
For safety, you can't tolerate rare exceptions.
--
Lee Sau Dan 李守敦(Big5) ~{@nJX6X~}(HZ)
E-mail: danlee@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee |
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| LEE Sau Dan |
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 4:04 am |
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Quote: "Javier" == Javier BF <uaxuctum@hotmail.com> writes:
Javier> But we _know_ it wasn't the case that the colour code was
....................^^^^^^
Javier> chosen to represent "danger"/"safe", because that would
Javier> have been red/green instead of red/blue.
Why are you so certain about that? Evidence?
--
Lee Sau Dan +Z05biGVm-(Big5) ~{@nJX6X~}(HZ)
E-mail: danlee@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee |
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| LEE Sau Dan |
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 4:06 am |
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Quote: "Kevin" == Kevin Wayne Williams <nihongo@paxonet.kom> writes:
Kevin> Do you have any data on what a typical hot water
Kevin> temperature was when the first red/blue faucet was made? I
Kevin> bet that the hot water was coming straight out of a poorly
Kevin> regulated boiler, and was pretty dangerous at that
Kevin> time. What has happened since, in the absence of time
Kevin> travel, is irrelevant.
I guess the only form of temperature regulation was the boiling! As
long as liquid water is still there in the tank, it stays at 100
degrees (assuming standard atmospheric pressure). That's the easiest
to do.
--
Lee Sau Dan +Z05biGVm-(Big5) ~{@nJX6X~}(HZ)
E-mail: danlee@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee |
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| LEE Sau Dan |
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 4:17 am |
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Quote: "Javier" == Javier BF <uaxuctum@hotmail.com> writes:
Javier> Things themselves do not have colour. They only reflect
Javier> light.
You're going to tell me that red-hot iron does not emit coloured light?
Quote: This is an even worse example. The top parts of the iceberg
shows a shade of orange-red, possibly due to sun shining from a
small angle with the horizon. The parts immersed in water
looks green to me. And the rest parts do look snow-white.
Javier> Possibly due to the wrong colour tuning of your
Javier> monitor. That "green" is bluegreen/turquoise/azure with
Javier> more blue than green, and not at all grass green. And,
Javier> anyway, green is a cool colour too.
You could say whatever you want. You can even claim that I'm blind
and I'm just doing Usenet with a Braille display.
Evidence?
Javier> And that yellow of usual fire always features reddish
Javier> tinges.
I don't think so. Given that perception is subjective, I don't think
there is any sense to argue around that. To me, flames are yellow.
That's MY perception.
Quote: I've already mentioned that I don't have a fireplace.
Javier> Oh, and have you _never_ seen one yet? What about TV,
Then, you can again assert that my TV is badly tuned so that the
colours aren't reproduced correctly. I'm certain you'll do so.
Javier> cinema, pictures?
Again, you can assert that the cinema's lighting conditions are not
correct. The colours in the pictures may have been washed out by the
sun before I have a chance to see them, etc. And I'm sure you will.
Javier> Have you never had a barbecue or lit up a fire out in the
Javier> country?
The fire of charcoal is very dim. I can't tell if it's red or blue.
(It also depends on ventilation. A well prepared fire using charcoal
has bluer flames. Of course, the burning charcoal itself glows with a
orange colour, like "red-hot" iron.)
Javier> Have you never seen anyone doing that, not on TV,
Javier> not on cinema?
See above.
Javier> What planet do you live in?
I hope you're on the same planet as mine.
Javier> I don't think most people associate "cold water" with
Javier> safety and "hot water" with danger.
Quote: Have you prepared the water in a bath tub? I mean tuning the
temperature to make it comfortable.
Javier> My hot-water tap is never dangerously hot, because I'm not
Javier> that rash and irresponsible.
That's YOUR experience, and that's quite different from MINE. Got it?
Fact: hot water from the tap *somewhere* *sometime* can be dangerously hot.
Are you going to refute that?
Javier> The colour code was not meant to be restricted to one
Javier> particular cultural area, but to be easily understood by
Javier> anyone without previous explanation.
And it fails that purpose.
Javier> (Now you'll tell me you would be unable to guess out the
Javier> meaning of the red/blue code...)
Yeah. I couldn't guess it. People taught me that colour code when I
was young. And most of the time, I don't depend on the colour coding.
I simply switch it on and see (by eye -- the steam) if the water
coming out is hot. And before seeing it, I simply guess that the tape
on the right hand side is cold water.
--
Lee Sau Dan +Z05biGVm-(Big5) ~{@nJX6X~}(HZ)
E-mail: danlee@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee |
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