Q: Two Japanese color terms

Main Page | Report this Page

Science Forum Index » Languages Forum » Q: Two Japanese color terms

Page 1 of 27 Goto page 1, 2, 3 ... 25, 26, 27 Next

Author

Message

Larry Trask

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 10:05 am

Guest

My apologies if this has been discussed before, but I can't find any
discussion.

I'm asking about the etymologies of two Japanese color terms.

First, <ki-iro> 'yellow'. This is transparently "<ki>-color", but
what is that element <ki>? The character used to write it appears to
be unique here: I can't find any other instances of its use.

Second, <midori> 'green'. It seems to be agreed that this term does
not belong to the oldest stratum of color terms in Japanese, but I
haven't been able to find out anything about its origin. Is anything
known about its etymology?

Thanks.

Larry Trask
larryt@sussex.ac.uk

Geoff

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 10:43 am

Guest

Larry Trask wrote:

Quote:

The "ki" in 黄色 is the usual Chinese character for yellow.
Will wait for an expert to explain midori.

Larry Trask

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 12:52 pm

Guest

Geoff <grw888@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<Q2hIb.11910$lo3.2077@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>...

[LT]

Quote:

First, <ki-iro> 'yellow'. This is transparently "<ki>-color", but
what is that element <ki>? The character used to write it appears to
be unique here: I can't find any other instances of its use.

The "ki" in 黄色 is the usual Chinese character for yellow.

Very interesting. So, the suggestion appears to be that Japanese took
over the Chinese word for 'yellow' and then combined this with its own
word for 'color' to produce the name for this color. It's rather as
though we English-speakers, when we borrowed 'blue' from Norman
French, had converted it to 'blue-color' and used that as our ordinary
name.

Larry Trask
larryt@sussex.ac.uk

Javier BF

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 3:23 pm

Guest

Quote:

First, <ki-iro> 'yellow'. This is transparently "<ki>-color", but
what is that element <ki>? The character used to write it appears to
be unique here: I can't find any other instances of its use.

I've recently found this wonderful etymological database,

http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/main.cgi?flags=eygtnnl&root=config

according to which "ki" comes from proto-Japanese "kui",
which in turn comes from proto-Altaic "ki(o\jbu", meaning
'pale'. This protoform would be the ancestor of items
like Middle Mongolian "qubi" meaning 'yellow (horse)'
and Khalkha "xuvxai". The Turkic protoform would have
been "Kuba/Koba" meaning 'pale yellow/pale grey',
giving Kazakh and Uzbek "quw".

http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?flags=eygtnnl&single=1&basename=\data\alt\japet&text_recno=92&root=config

Querying for other basic Japanese colour names I've
found this:

*si(a:\yri (white, yellow)

-> *siarIg ---> OT sarIG ----> TR sarI (yellow)
-> *sira -----> WM sira -----> MN s^ar (yellow)
-> *si\rua\ --> OJ si\rwo\ --> JA shiro-i (white)

*ka\ru (black)

-> *Kara -----> OT qara -----> TR kara (black, strong)
-> *kara -----> WM qara -----> KH xar (black)
-> *ku\rua\ --> OJ ku\rwo\ --> JA kuro/-i (black)

*i(a:\ka (light, white)

-> *A:k ------> OT aq --------> TR ak (white, aristocratic)
-> *yagaGan --> WM yaGan -----> KH yagaan (pink)
-> *a/ka/ ----> OJ a/ka/ -----> JP a\ka-i (red)

*a(\jbo (grass)

-> *ebe-su" --> WM ebesu"(n) -> KH o"ws(o"n) (grass)
-> *a\w@\ ----> OJ a\wo\ -----> JP ao/-i (blue, green)

OT Old Turkic
WM Written Mongolian
OJ Old Japanese

TR Turkish
KH Khalkha
JP Tokyo Japanese

Quote:

Second, <midori> 'green'. It seems to be agreed that this term does
not belong to the oldest stratum of color terms in Japanese, but I
haven't been able to find out anything about its origin. Is anything
known about its etymology?

I couldn't find anything about the etymology of midori
in the above database, but I know the word originally
(still?) meant "vegetation".

Cheers,
Javier

Charles Eicher

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 5:21 pm

Guest

In article <48c7f19.0312300705.567ce05f@posting.google.com>, Larry Trask says...

Quote:

There is a rather interesting appendix in my Oobunsha kogojiten, listing the
classical terms for
colors, along with a color swatch to show that color was actually referred to.
There is actually no
color directly corresponding to yellow, the closest term is "kibako" using the
same kanji ki as in
kiiro, but it's a rather greenish yellow. Kibako obviously is derived from
"yellow leaves," just as
many other colors are derived from a common standard from nature, i.e. asagi
(sky color/blue).
A little poking around in Kojien reveals an interesting definition of yellow,
"pale color." This is fairly
typical of classical Japanese color names, it refers to a vague quality of the
color rather than an
actual color. One of my painting instructors told me "yellow is just like white
but with a little color"
and I completely agree with him.

Quote:

There were fewer names for colors in early Japanese, and from what I recall
reading, there were
fewer distinctions between colors. Some color ranges have finer discrimination,
there are quite a
few names for shades of red and peach, but hardly any for cooler colors. In
later times, colors like
midori were used to refer to a wide range of both blue and green. According to
Oobunsha again,
the classical color closest to green was "moegi" (bud color).

I know I've read more about the etymology of midori somewhere, but I haven't
found it, I'll keep
looking.

Dale Walker

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:10 pm

Guest

On 30 Dec 2003 09:52:42 -0800, larryt@sussex.ac.uk (Larry Trask)
wrote:

Quote:

Geoff <grw888@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<Q2hIb.11910$lo3.2077@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>...

[LT]

First, <ki-iro> 'yellow'. This is transparently "<ki>-color", but
what is that element <ki>? The character used to write it appears to
be unique here: I can't find any other instances of its use.

The "ki" in $B2+?'(B is the usual Chinese character for yellow.

Very interesting. So, the suggestion appears to be that Japanese took
over the Chinese word for 'yellow' and then combined this with its own
word for 'color' to produce the name for this color. It's rather as
though we English-speakers, when we borrowed 'blue' from Norman
French, had converted it to 'blue-color' and used that as our ordinary
name.

The Normans were the ones that stuck a French ending on the latin
'color' to give 'colour' too.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Dale Walker London Techno Events Saiko!
dale@sorted.org london@sorted.org saiko@sorted.org
London, UK london.sorted.org saiko.sorted.org

Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:41 pm

Charles Eicher wrote:

Quote:

Kind of like the way "aoi" refers to something blue or green.

Quote:

I know I've read more about the etymology of midori somewhere, but I haven't
found it, I'll keep looking.

Now you've got me interested in how different languages developed color
definitions, and what their needs were. When I think of the colors in
English, I get very specific colors in mind. Is that only because in
the last 200 years or so, the English speaking world had mass-produced
pigments to refer to?

In other words, did I learn the shade for "green" from the Crayola
corporation, or was green always associated with that shade?

--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Travers Naran | Visit the SFTV Science Blunders
F/T Programmer,P/T Meddler In Time&Space | Hall of Infamy!
New Westminster, British Columbia, |
Canada, Earth, Milky Way, etc. | <www.geocities.com/naran500/>
"Stand Back! I'm a programmer!" |
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:42 pm

Dale Walker wrote:

Quote:

On 30 Dec 2003 09:52:42 -0800, larryt@sussex.ac.uk (Larry Trask)
wrote:

Geoff <grw888@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<Q2hIb.11910$lo3.2077@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>...

[LT]

First, <ki-iro> 'yellow'. This is transparently "<ki>-color", but
what is that element <ki>? The character used to write it appears to
be unique here: I can't find any other instances of its use.

The "ki" in $B2+?'(B is the usual Chinese character for yellow.

Very interesting. So, the suggestion appears to be that Japanese took
over the Chinese word for 'yellow' and then combined this with its own
word for 'color' to produce the name for this color. It's rather as
though we English-speakers, when we borrowed 'blue' from Norman
French, had converted it to 'blue-color' and used that as our ordinary
name.

The Normans were the ones that stuck a French ending on the latin
'color' to give 'colour' too.

My Grade 12 English teacher, who was an Englishman, absolutely hated
spelling color with a 'u'.

--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Travers Naran | Visit the SFTV Science Blunders
F/T Programmer,P/T Meddler In Time&Space | Hall of Infamy!
New Westminster, British Columbia, |
Canada, Earth, Milky Way, etc. | <www.geocities.com/naran500/>
"Stand Back! I'm a programmer!" |
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Phil Healey

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:56 pm

Guest

Larry Trask wrote:

Quote:

Obunsha's Dictionary of Classical Japanese (Kogo Jiten) 8th ed. has the
following for ki:

Ki: (noun; nari-type adjectival verb) The color yellow ["ki-iro"].
"Kawakami no hou yori ~~ naru mono nagare kite" ["... a yellow object
flowed down the river ..."] (from the Sarashina Diary).

Yellow source ["ki-naru izumi"] - (Japanese reading of Chinese "kwausen"
["yellow+source" in classical Japanese pronunciation]) The world one
goes after dying. The land of the dead
["meido"]). "Omohoede ~~ ni kie kaheri" ["... (he) unexpectedly
disappeared, returning to the land of the dead ..."] (from the "Atemiya"
section of the Tale of Utsuho).

Yellow tears ["ki-naru namida"] - Tears shed in profound despair or
sadness. Often applied to animals. "Tears of blood" [Japanese expression
meaning "bitter tears"]. "(Shishi ha) ~~ wo nagashitsutsu" ["...
shedding bitter tears ("yellow tears"), the lion ..."] (from Taiheiki).

[ ] = my comments, translations of quotes, or readings of characters.

Quote:

The "ki" in $B2+?'(B is the usual Chinese character for yellow.

Very interesting. So, the suggestion appears to be that Japanese took
over the Chinese word for 'yellow' and then combined this with its own
word for 'color' to produce the name for this color.

Not exactly. Japanese "ki" is Japanese. Geoff is saying that the
Japanese use the Chinese character for "yellow" (or, since I
don't speak Chinese, what I assume is the Chinese character for
"yellow," since it could have a different meaning and/or other meanings
as well) when writing "ki."
"Iro" is the native Japanese word for color.

Quote:

The Kojien dictionary, which is considered the standard reference for
modern Japanese, lists "mido" as the root for the word "midori," with a
possible link to "mizu" in old "mizumizushi" (modern "mizumizushii")
("fresh," "young and beautiful"). Note that "mizu" also means water,
although in this case the "mizu"s are written with different Chinese
characters (which could be irrelevant.)

I assume that you are calling "the oldest stratum of color terms" the
group of colors which can end in "-i," of which "midori" and "ki" do not
form a part.(1) Most colors, come to think of it, do not end in "-i,"
however, so maybe you're applying a different definition.

I won't translate the lengthy entry for "midori" from the classical
dictionary, but it looks like classical usage corresponds fairly closely
with modern usage, in which "midori" either means the color green or
"greenery" (vegetation, etc.) although this last meaning was originally
"new leaves, buds, etc." Interestingly, the earliest example quoted in
the entry is from the Manyoshu (compiled between 630 AD and 760 AD) and
is used in the form "midoriko/midorigo" (green + child), meaning "baby"
or "a child until about the age of three." "Green hair" was apparently
an expression which meant "shiny black hair," which is interesting
because until recently (not sure how recently), the word for blue, "ao,"
also did double duty for green. In fact, a green light (on a traffic
light) is still referred to as "ao-shingo" ("blue signal"), so "midori"
as a color might have referred to dark green, while lighter hues of
green might have fallen under "ao." Grass, in fact, can also be called
"ao" (slightly archaicly), as in English "bluegrass."

My non-specialist's guess would be that "ao" originally covered most
shades of green and blue, but later "midori" ("greenery, vegetation")
was borrowed to distinguish blue(r) from green(er).

(1) - I've heard children say "midorii" (never "kii" though), but I
think this is just a mistake children make when they over-apply a rule
they've learned, as in "I maked a snowman with daddy yesterday."

Bart Mathias

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:12 pm

Guest

"Larry Trask" writes:

...

Quote:

I'm asking about the etymologies of two Japanese color terms.

First, <ki-iro> 'yellow'. This is transparently "<ki>-color", but
what is that element <ki>? The character used to write it appears
to be unique here: I can't find any other instances of its use.

Second, <midori> 'green'. It seems to be agreed that this term
does not belong to the oldest stratum of color terms in Japanese,
but I haven't been able to find out anything about its origin. Is
anything known about its etymology?

I don't think anyone knows the etymology of either of these words.
(The many-volume Kokugo Daijiten_ undoubtedly has some guesses, but
if I ever checked in that dictionary, I don't remember.)

"Ki" is not from the Chinese, in which that character is "huang"
([o:] < [wau] in Japanese).

Best guess I've ever come up with for "yellow," and though one
usually likes one's own etymologies, this one isn't very satisfying,
is "wood (color)." Two other "ki" that are probably less likely yet
are the "ki" of "kiba" = "fang," where the "ba" part is presumably
"tooth" (are fangs yellow?), and an old word for sake (survives in
"miki" = "taboo/holy sake"). They spoke (or rather wrote) of
"kuroki" and "shiroki" = "black sake" and "white sake" respectively,
though.

As for "midori," the late Peter Boodberg--much better at Chinese
etymology than Japanese, in my opinion--wanted to make it "water
bird" --> "green" in parallel with the Chinese use of its word for
kingfisher as a color term. But there isn't the slightest hint that
any birds were ever called "midori," to the best of my knowledge.

My own guess--I like this better than my "wood color" for yellow--is
that it might be related to "(ao)midoro" = "green pond scum." At
least there is a hint that "midori" is a wet color in the expression
"midori shitataru" = "midori drips" = "is verdant green." But I have
no explanation as to why the final "o" of "midoro" should have
survived in that word. (Most cases where "o" > "i" have "o"
surviving only in compounds. E.g. "ho" = "fire" shows up that way in
"hokage" = "firelight," etc., but is now only "hi" as a single word.

Bart

Phil Healey

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:32 pm

Guest

Bart Mathias wrote:

Quote:

"Larry Trask" writes:

...

Best guess I've ever come up with for "yellow," and though one
usually likes one's own etymologies, this one isn't very satisfying,
is "wood (color)."
...
(Most cases where "o" > "i" have "o"
surviving only in compounds. E.g. "ho" = "fire" shows up that way in
"hokage" = "firelight," etc., but is now only "hi" as a single word.

Don't forget "ki" -> "kokage," "konoha." Is "ko-" for "yellow" attested?

Bart Mathias

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 9:00 pm

Guest

"Phil Healey" writes:

Quote:

Bart Mathias wrote:

"Larry Trask" writes:

...

Best guess I've ever come up with for "yellow," and though one
usually likes one's own etymologies, this one isn't very
satisfying, is "wood (color)."
...
(Most cases where "o" > "i" have "o" surviving only in compounds.
E.g. "ho" = "fire" shows up that way in "hokage" = "firelight,"
etc., but is now only "hi" as a single word.

Don't forget "ki" -> "kokage," "konoha." Is "ko-" for "yellow"
attested?

Well, there's "kogane" = "gold."

Iwanami kogo says that was "kugane" in the Nara period, though.

"Ku" to "ki" is no problem, but I'm unaware of any "tree/wood" "ku-"
at the moment.

I like the idea of a "ko/ku" doublet. I've always wanted to see "mi"
in the "mo" of the word "mogak-" = "squirm" (i.e., "mo-" > "mi"; cf.
"agak-" = "paw the ground," from "a-" as "foot"), but the consensus
ties it in with "mu" as in "mukuro" = "cadaver."

Bart

Mikael Thompson

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 9:06 pm

Guest

Geoff <grw888@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<Q2hIb.11910$lo3.2077@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>...

Quote:

Larry Trask wrote:
[Snip.]
Second, <midori> 'green'. It seems to be agreed that this term does
not belong to the oldest stratum of color terms in Japanese, but I
haven't been able to find out anything about its origin. Is anything
known about its etymology?

[Snip.] Will wait for an expert to explain midori.

According to Samuel Martin, _The Japanese Language Through Time_, Yale
1987 (o_ indicates an underlined o in the text):

"midori < myido_ri < *minto_ri. ... An etymology midu iro 'water
color' has been suggested, presumably by metathesis --> *mid[u]-ori
but that would lead to /dwo/ instead of the attested /do_/, unless
*miduiro > *midi[y]ro_ -> mido_ri is assumed. Also possible: *min[a]
to_ri 'water bird', with an extended meaning or perhaps as a
truncation 'water-bird [color]'." (477).

Mikael Thompson

Brian M. Scott

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 10:33 pm

Guest

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 23:10:22 +0000, Dale Walker <dale@sorted.org>
wrote in sci.lang.japan,sci.lang:

[...]

Quote:

The Normans were the ones that stuck a French ending on the latin
'color' to give 'colour' too.

Not precisely, no. The Latin source is <colo:rem>, and Latin
long /o:/ gave in early Old French a very close vowel in the [o:]
~ [u:] range that was represented by both <o> and <u>. Thus, you
find in OFr both <colur> and <color>, among others. The spelling
<ou> appears in OFr in the 13th century, I believe, and was taken
from late Anglo-French into Middle English. According to the
OED, <colour> has been the normal English spelling since the 14th
century.

Brian

rose

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2003 1:32 am

Guest

Bart Mathias wrote:

Quote:

Well, there's "kogane" = "gold."

Iwanami kogo says that was "kugane" in the Nara period, though.

My $B4AOB<-E5(B under $B2+(B says $B!'(B
$B!!(B*$B2+$O!"ED!JEZCO$N0U!K$,0UId!"%3%&!J8w$N8E;z!K$,2;Id$G!"(B
$B!!$^$?!"F|8w$N?'$N0U$rI=$9!#EZCO$N?'!"2+?'$N$3$H!#(B

*$B2+"+$3$l$OB/;z$i$7$$$G$9!#(B

$BNP$b$J$s$+=q$$$F$"$C$?!#JP$H:n$j$K$o$1$F!";eJP$O0UL#!"(B
$B:n$j$O2;$rI=$9$=$&$G$9!#:n$j$NJ}$N4A;z!J$j$g$/!K$O!"(B
$BK(2+?'!J$b$($.$$$m!K$K@w$a$kAp$NL>A0$@$=$&$G$9!#(B

$B"""#!!!!!!!!!!(B<:$B#3(B $B!K!A(B
$B"#3ZG-(B <:$B#3(B $B!K!A!!(B $B!!(B

Page 1 of 27 Goto page 1, 2, 3 ... 25, 26, 27 Next All times are GMT - 5 Hours The time now is Sun Sep 07, 2008 3:27 pm Science Forum Index