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Orb
Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2003 9:14 pm
Guest
So, I'm writing my final paper for my Kant class, and I've decided to
write on whether or not Kant could conceive of a being that existed
outside of time. I know he had some of notion of a god, but I'm really
more concerned with his view of time (as explained in the Critique of
Pure Reason).

Assuming God exists, and assuming that Kant's view of time and space is
true, what would the nature of such a God be like?

Any ideas?



--
Orb
orb@kc.rr.com
http://www.orbshome.com
http://www.cornerstonekc.org/QA.htm
mitch
Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2003 12:28 am
Guest
Orb wrote:

Quote:
So, I'm writing my final paper for my Kant class, and I've decided to
write on whether or not Kant could conceive of a being that existed
outside of time. I know he had some of notion of a god, but I'm really
more concerned with his view of time (as explained in the Critique of
Pure Reason).

Assuming God exists, and assuming that Kant's view of time and space is
true, what would the nature of such a God be like?

Any ideas?


From my understanding, Kant's basic premise in "Critique of Pure Reason" is
that the answer to such a question is not meaningful. He does, however,
discuss related issues in the ideal of pure reason--a later section of the
book.

You might consider posting your question to alt.philosophy.kant. There are
one or two knowledgeable individuals that might be able to help you more
substantially.

:-)

mitch
John Jones
Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2003 9:41 am
Guest
If you know what Kant said, why don't you just repeat it?

'Outside of time'...?
You mean non-causal, synchronous?
Time is a pattern of events we make, EVENTS.


JJ

"Orb" <orb@kc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:feaBb.115135$Vu6.13895@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
Quote:

So, I'm writing my final paper for my Kant class, and I've decided to
write on whether or not Kant could conceive of a being that existed
outside of time. I know he had some of notion of a god, but I'm really
more concerned with his view of time (as explained in the Critique of
Pure Reason).

Assuming God exists, and assuming that Kant's view of time and space is
true, what would the nature of such a God be like?

Any ideas?



--
Orb
orb@kc.rr.com
http://www.orbshome.com
http://www.cornerstonekc.org/QA.htm
Immortalist
Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2003 10:07 am
Guest
"mitch" <mitchs@rcnNOSPAM.com> wrote in message
news:3FD55D82.B3D9F2AF@rcnNOSPAM.com...
Quote:


Orb wrote:

So, I'm writing my final paper for my Kant class, and I've decided to
write on whether or not Kant could conceive of a being that existed
outside of time. I know he had some of notion of a god, but I'm really
more concerned with his view of time (as explained in the Critique of
Pure Reason).

Assuming God exists, and assuming that Kant's view of time and space is
true, what would the nature of such a God be like?

Any ideas?


From my understanding, Kant's basic premise in "Critique of Pure Reason"
is
that the answer to such a question is not meaningful. He does, however,
discuss related issues in the ideal of pure reason--a later section of the
book.

You might consider posting your question to alt.philosophy.kant. There
are
one or two knowledgeable individuals that might be able to help you more
substantially.


Hey Mitch what do you think of what these Yahoo's gotta say about Kant, God
& Time?

For Kant the Christian could have faith in God, and this faith would be
consonant with reason and the categorical imperative. Given that human
beings have the autonomy to create moral values, it would not be irrational
to believe in a God who gives purpose to the moral realm.

Søren Kierkegaard (1813-1855) agreed with Kant that the existence of God
could not be proven by reason. However Kierkegaard did not think that it was
rational to believe in God, rather one should have faith in God even if this
seems to reason to be absurd. To put it another way reason has no place in
faith. God is beyond reason.

http://www.philosopher.org.uk/god.htm

---------------------------------

But if the mind actively generates perception, this raises the question
whether the result has anything to do with the world, or if so, how much.
The answer to the question, unusual, ambiguous, or confusing as it would be,
made for endless trouble both in Kant's thought and for a posterity trying
to figure him out. To the extent that knowledge depends on the structure of
the mind and not on the world, knowledge would have no connection to the
world and is not even true representation, just a solipsistic or
intersubjective fantasy.

Kantianism seems threatened with "psychologism," the doctrine that what we
know is our own psychology, not external things. Kant did say, consistent
with psychologism, that basically we don't know about
"things-in-themselves," objects as they exist apart from perception. But at
the same time Kant thought he was vindicating both a scientific realism,
where science really knows the world, and a moral realism, where there is
objective moral obligation, for both of which a connection to external
existence is essential.

And there were also terribly important features of things-in-themselves that
we do have some notion about and that are of fundamental importance to human
life, not just morality but what he called the three "Ideas" of reason:
God, freedom, and immortality. Kant always believed that the rational
structure of the mind reflected the rational structure of the world, even of
things-in-themselves -- that the "operating system" of the processor, by
modern analogy, matched the operating system of reality.

But Kant had no real argument for this -- the "Ideas" of reason just become
"postulates" of morality -- and his system leaves it as something
unprovable. The paradoxes of Kant's efforts to reconcile his conflicting
approaches and requirements made it very difficult for most later
philosophers to take the overall system seriously.

http://www.friesian.com/kant.htm

-------------------------------------

Kant locates the order of nature in reason. Reason does for the
understanding what understanding does for the manifold of intuition - "the
understanding is an object for reason, just as sensibility is for the
understanding." Reason's regulative capacity renders the unconditioned
totality of objects systematic. There are three ideas of reason: self, world
and God. God is the Ideal of Reason, whose concept

aims . . . at complete determination in accordance with a priori rules.
Accordingly it thinks for itself an object which it regards as being
completely determinable in accordance with princi ples,

that is, in accordance with universal a priori cognition. This ideal of the
ens realissimum, of the universal concept of a reality in general, is then
thought of as containing the being of all beings. But as an idea of reason,
the ens realissimum is never met with in appearances. The Ideal of Reason
does not satisfy the transcendental conditions and so cannot be considered
objectively real. As such, Kant holds that the existence of God cannot be
proved by speculative reason.

Kant argues that there are three, and only three, possible ways in which
speculative reason can argue for the existence of God, characterized as the
Ideal of Reason. But all fail to prove God's existence. Reason, according to
Kant's analysis, can attempt to prove God's existence by either an empirical
or a transcendental path, both of which involve going beyond the scope of
reason to the transcendental concept. Consequently, Kant first discusses the
transcendental proof of God's existence, arguing that the other proofs
ultimately depend on it. The ontological argument moves from idea to
existence, arguing that the essence of a supreme and perfect being involves
existence. Kant argues that this type of proof fails to recognize that
existence is not a predicate, and that to call it so is to claim that there
is a quality in the world corresponding to it.

....In his two earlier works, Kant asks the question 'How is the realm of
possibility possible?', whereas in the Critique the question of possibility
has become an epistemological problem rather than an ontological one. The
problem is now seen in terms of a structure of conditions related to the
possibility of cognition, not as a problem requiring the proof of a single
actual ground. Kant's argument that existence is not a predicate is given
new force by his transcendental analysis, which shows that God's existence
is not an issue in the realm of reason. If the transcendental analysis is
accepted, and we therefore see that all existential propositions are
synthetic, we cannot, without contradiction, maintain that existence is a
predicate.

....Kant's rejection of all possible proofs of God's existence and his moving
God out of the sphere of ontology, rules out the traditional ground of a
systematic universe. He therefore must provide some other explanation of how
we perceive the world as systematic and purposive.26 Some principle of
systematicity is necessary to account for the interconnectedness or
coherence we perceive in nature. Kant explains systematicity in terms of
epistemology. For Kant, systematicity is the creative organization of our
cognition of nature in accordance with certain regulative principles. These
principles are the ideas of reason. Reason prescribes a logical principle
that assists

the understanding by means of ideas, in those cases in which the
understanding cannot by itself establish rules, and at the same time ...
give[s] to the numerous and diverse rules of the understanding unity or
system under a single principle.

At the level of the understanding there is no system. An idea, as a
regulative principle, supplies a rule for systematization. Kant
distinguishes this from the 'Ideal of Reason', which supplies the notion of
an 'archetype' or individual ground for systematization.28 This too must be
seen as only regulative, as it has no content, that is, 'God' does not
correspond to the concept of God. It is the regulative ideal of nature that
makes possible the unity of nature itself. The Ideal of nature, as
regulative, has a purely methodological status.

Kant moves from systematicity to purposiveness. He argues that saying that
all things are part of a system is tantamount to saying that all things have
a purpose within that system. To see things as systematic, for Kant, is to
see them as in "seemingly purposive arrangements." A move cannot be made
from purposive order to God, because God has no matter of intuition, that
is, God is not 'given' to sensibility and so does not conform to the
transcendental conditions. But there is an analogical correspondence between
systematicity and God. They are logically equivalent and "it must be a
matter of complete indifference to us, when we say we perceive . . . unity,
whether we say that God in his wisdom has willed it to be so, or that nature
has wisely arranged it thus." From a philosophical point of view, God as
creator corresponds to system. The principle of God is not needed to explain
nature. All that is needed is the principle of systematicity. Analogy
between teleology and theology gives meaning or content to our idea of God.
But to designate what the relationship is between God and the world in
itself is completely outside the conditions of possible experience.

In the Critique, it no longer makes sense to ask whether natural laws form a
systematic whole. The ideal of reason is simply the principle of systematic
unity. This unity has no ontological significance, since it does not exist
empirically. Rather it is "a mere fiction," or "a mere illusion," with "no
object that can be met in any experience." When we act according to the
principle of systematicity, we presuppose that nature is a completed system.
Despite this status, Kant claims that we need the idea of systematic unity,
that we "must" assume it. This is, in Kant's eyes, the strongest possible
argument for God - not for the existence of God in the constitutive or
formal sense, as no such proof is possible, but for the meaningfulness of
the idea of God in the cognitive sphere.

IMMORTALIST:
[Therefore it takes time to systematize cognitively?]

The Critique of Pure Reason, then, moves God out of the realm of ontology
and into that of epistemology. The concept of God is involved in cognition,
but is merely an analogical image. From the standpoint of speculative
reason, God has no objective reality. Yet Kant posits two types of reality,
the cognitive and the moral. These two points of view are tied together by
reason. The concept of sensation is not simply a negative boundary to stop
us from bringing up: something that lies behind sensation. Kant wants us to
leave this something completely unspecified in the realm of cognition. God
is indeterminable in the sphere of understanding, determinable in the sphere
of reason, and determinate in the sphere of moral experience. There are then
two view points, the cognitive, which includes understanding and reason, and
the realm of moral experience. Kant retains the reality and determinability
of God in the sphere of moral experience. Only the reality of God makes
morality possible. In terms of empirical cognition, however, we cannot go
beyond the bounds of the a priori conditions. Only Kant's analysis of moral
experience lets us go beyond the analogical level.

God in Kant's Critique of Pure Reason
http://www.mun.ca/phil/codgito/vol3/v3doc1.html


Quote:
:-)

mitch


Jos Horikx
Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 6:31 am
Guest
On Tue, 9 Dec 2003 07:07:49 -0800, "Immortalist"
<Reanimater_2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
Quote:
"mitch" <mitchs@rcnNOSPAM.com> wrote in message
news:3FD55D82.B3D9F2AF@rcnNOSPAM.com...
Orb wrote:

So, I'm writing my final paper for my Kant class, and I've decided to
write on whether or not Kant could conceive of a being that existed
outside of time. I know he had some of notion of a god, but I'm really
more concerned with his view of time (as explained in the Critique of
Pure Reason).

Assuming God exists, and assuming that Kant's view of time and space is
true, what would the nature of such a God be like?

Any ideas?

Just read the man (Kant) himself:

" The concept of a supreme being is in many respects a very
useful idea; but just because it is a mere idea, it is
altogether incapable, by itself alone, of enlarging our
knowledge in regard to what exists. It is not even competent
to enlighten us as to the possibility of any existence beyond
that which is known in and through experience. The analytic
criterion of possibility, as consisting in the principle that
bare positives (realities) give rise to no contradiction,
cannot be denied to it. But since the realities are not given
to us in their specific characters; since even if they were,
we should still not be in a position to pass judgment; since
the criterion of the possibility of synthetic knowledge is
never to be looked for save in experience, to which the object
of an idea cannot belong, the connection of all real
properties in a thing is a synthesis, the possibility of which
we are unable to determine a priori. And thus the celebrated
Leibniz is far from having succeeded in what he plumed himself
on achieving -- the comprehension a priori of the possibility
of this sublime ideal being. "

( Kant, Kritik der reinen Vernunft, translation into English, page:
http://www.phil.pku.edu.cn/resguide/Kant/CPR/18.html#514 )


JH
HPO Jury = Malenoid
Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 11:15 am
Guest
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 12:31:12 +0100, Jos Horikx
<REMOVECAPITALS.jhorikx@chello.nl> wrote:


Quote:
( Kant, Kritik der reinen Vernunft, translation into English, page:
http://www.phil.pku.edu.cn/resguide/Kant/CPR/18.html#514 )

I'm still searching for an e-text that retains the original A/B
pagination, useful for citations. Looks like I'll have to make one of
my own.


--
A man does what he must -- in spite of personal
consequences, in spite of obstacles and dangers and
pressures -- and that is the basis of all human
morality.
-
John F. Kennedy
Jos Horikx
Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2003 4:30 am
Guest
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 09:15:08 -0700, HPO Jury = Malenoid
<Malenoid@hotmail.com> wrote:
Quote:
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 12:31:12 +0100, Jos Horikx
REMOVECAPITALS.jhorikx@chello.nl> wrote:

( Kant, Kritik der reinen Vernunft, translation into English, page:
http://www.phil.pku.edu.cn/resguide/Kant/CPR/18.html#514 )

I'm still searching for an e-text that retains the original A/B
pagination, useful for citations. Looks like I'll have to make one of
my own.

I think/feel the same.

But luckely one of the advantages of the internet is, that, when
one quotes correctly, many times the text itself can easily be
found back on the internet using Google. So one of the reasons
for giving the proper references (that is: to enable the reader the
check for correctness) loses in importance.


JH
mitch
Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2003 6:30 am
Guest
Immortalist wrote:

Quote:
"mitch" <mitchs@rcnNOSPAM.com> wrote in message
news:3FD55D82.B3D9F2AF@rcnNOSPAM.com...


Orb wrote:

So, I'm writing my final paper for my Kant class, and I've decided to
write on whether or not Kant could conceive of a being that existed
outside of time. I know he had some of notion of a god, but I'm really
more concerned with his view of time (as explained in the Critique of
Pure Reason).

Assuming God exists, and assuming that Kant's view of time and space is
true, what would the nature of such a God be like?

Any ideas?


From my understanding, Kant's basic premise in "Critique of Pure Reason"
is
that the answer to such a question is not meaningful. He does, however,
discuss related issues in the ideal of pure reason--a later section of the
book.

You might consider posting your question to alt.philosophy.kant. There
are
one or two knowledgeable individuals that might be able to help you more
substantially.


Hey Mitch what do you think of what these Yahoo's gotta say about Kant, God
& Time?


Yuck. You know, I'm just a guy who likes math and knows the difference between
a Boolean algebra (Frege and logicism) and a Boolean ring (Kant and
intuitionism).

Logicism is idiotic. Look up Reverend Kirkman. He showed the existence of
Steiner triple systems for every finitary collection of symbols in such a way
the the basic notion of Peano succession is satisfied. The triple systems
correspond with Desarguean numbers in Hilbert's foundations of geometry.
Subsequent work in combinatorial topology (nerves by P. S. Alexandrov) and ring
theory (chain conditions by Emmy Noether and Emil Artin) almost completely
circumvents the foundationalism of the Vienna Circle.

Having said that, I will give it a try. Mind you, though, I don't have the
ethical philosophy to say squat.


Quote:

For Kant the Christian could have faith in God, and this faith would be
consonant with reason and the categorical imperative. Given that human
beings have the autonomy to create moral values, it would not be irrational
to believe in a God who gives purpose to the moral realm.

Søren Kierkegaard (1813-1855) agreed with Kant that the existence of God
could not be proven by reason. However Kierkegaard did not think that it was
rational to believe in God, rather one should have faith in God even if this
seems to reason to be absurd. To put it another way reason has no place in
faith. God is beyond reason.

http://www.philosopher.org.uk/god.htm

I know that Kant made efforts to abide by the self-consistent synthesis in
"Critique of Pure Reason." But, I do not know what he may have said to justify
someone writing "However, Kierkegaard did not think it was rational..." as if
this was in oppositon to Kant.

Kant's "Critique of Pure Reason" is grounded on the problematic investigation of
an object--that is, without regard for its existence. So, when he gets to
discussing speculation concerning a supreme being, he turns to the existence
question in light of his prior work.

First of all, he observes that reason must regress from the conditioned to the
unconditioned,

"...--were it not that it is impelled from another
direction to seek a resting-place in the regress
from the conditioned, which is given, to the
unconditioned. This unconditioned is not, indeed,
given as being in itself real, nor as having a reality
that follows from its mere concept; it is, however,
what alone can complete the series of conditions
when we trace these conditions to their grounds."

So, obviously, he moves from knowledge to belief. But, the issue now is a
matter of existence. He writes,

"If we admit something as existing, no matter what
this something may be, we must also admit that
there is something which exists necessarily."

And, he is definitely commited to the existence of something. The second
edition of "Critique of Pure Reason" included his refutation of idealism whereby
the time-determination of self is accomplished with respect to permanence
associated with the matter of sensation.

Moreover, the "Critique of Pure Reason" had already encapsulated dialectical
illusion by distinguishing logic from reason, whence the law of contradiction is
distinguished from the sum-total of possibilities. He is running out of options
to disentangle his ideas.

He writes:

"Such, then, is the natural procedure of human
reason. It begins by persuading itself of the
existence of some necessary being. This being
it apprehends as having an existence that is
unconditioned. It then looks around for the
concept of a single being that is likewise the
supreme being. Accordingly, we conclude that
the supreme being, as primordial ground of all
things, must exist by absolute necessity.

"If what we have in view is the coming to a
decision--if, that is to say, the existence of some
sort of necessary being is taken as granted, and
if it be agreed further that we must come to a
decision as to what it is--then the foregoing
way of thinking must be allowed to have a
certain cogency. [...]"

Now keep in mind the lovely bedtime reading that has accompanied my remarks
concerning Kant. How about a short paper on Dempster-Schafer belief models.
The Bayesian interpretations are closely related to decision theory. I think I
tried to recommend a paper describing a topological model for epistemic
intentionality precisely because of the remark,

"The uniqueness of the intentional state is
linked to the impossible ubiquity of the
subject on the response surface. Even when
s/he is in a bifurcation zone, in relation
to his/her history, s/he can occupy only
one position. This constraint, that will be
discussed below, is psychologically linked
to the fact that intentional epistemic states
are linked to action and that action cannot
divide itself into several parallel universes."


Kant recognized that decision was not the same as deduction and that decision
was the result of our perception of choice relative to the confinement imposed
by the reality of action within experience.

In other words, Kant was well aware that God was beyond reason. The problem is
how one resolves the question of *necessary* existence. Belief is consonant
with faith because faith justifies belief (at least that is all I can conclude
from these quotes). But, there is no criterion for determining the truth of
justified belief, and, when I recommended the paper discussing the
Dempster-Schafer belief model, the one I recommended discussed an interpretation
of "transferable belief" that was neither monotonic or Bayesian. The concept of
faith under consideration here does not get quantified and represented under the
time-determination of apperception and cannot be deduced from the law of
contradiction.

But, as I said, I am unaware how he may have developed his ideas in later works.




Quote:

---------------------------------

But if the mind actively generates perception, this raises the question
whether the result has anything to do with the world, or if so, how much.
The answer to the question, unusual, ambiguous, or confusing as it would be,
made for endless trouble both in Kant's thought and for a posterity trying
to figure him out.

This is accurate, but somewhat misleading. In Norman Kemp Smith's commentary (I
just happened to read a relevant paragraph when I opened on a bookstore shelf)
Kant's dilemma is discussed a little more realisically.

Kant was more involved with a nature/nurture kind of distinction. He had no
doubts about his ideality of space and time derived from consideration of the a
priori. He simply was not certain about whether it was innate with respect to
physiological structure or innate with respect to mechanisms underlying learned
behavior.

I am going to guess that it is a little of both. The back of the eye (remember
Descartes?) has arrangement of cells referred to as on-off cells and off-on
cells. These things essentially have inverted functions. They both discern
light intensity in peripheral vision from light intensity in the center of
focus. Obviously, one arrangement acknowledges bright peripheral stimuli and
the other acknowledges bright focal stimuli. On the other hand, recently
reported (Science News or Scientific American in the last two years) studies in
word recognition indicated the importance of pauses between elements as
necessary for aural stimuli to be interpreted as grammatical.

These are both very simple sensory primitives that can be given analogues in our
"scientific" development of mathematics. That would be consistent with Kant's
experiential foundation. But, one has no particular reason to conclude ideality
until faced with someone like David Hume.

There really is no resolution to the regress here. But, at least Kant's
philosophy is robust enough to say, "Hey, there is no resolution of the regress
until you are driven to some decision with respect to unconditioned acceptance."




Quote:
To the extent that knowledge depends on the structure of
the mind and not on the world, knowledge would have no connection to the
world and is not even true representation, just a solipsistic or
intersubjective fantasy.


This is the author's fantasy... Not Kant's.


Quote:

Kantianism seems threatened with "psychologism," the doctrine that what we
know is our own psychology, not external things.

Nineteenth century Neo-Kantianism--perhaps the first "me generation."

You "know" nothing if you have no sense of what it is for knowledge to be
objective. Kant dealt with the distinction between objective and subjective
knowledge. The result should have been some humility.

The nineteenth century was characterized by a quickening of the industrial
revolution and rising nationalism. That's a generation that typifies humility
if ever there was one, eh?

Heidegger notes that Kant was rediscovered in the nineteenth century and
misinterpreted in the advancement of the sciences. Thus we end up with Kantian
rigor and a materialist ethic (John Stuart Mill and Adam Smith, methinks).



Quote:
Kant did say, consistent
with psychologism, that basically we don't know about
"things-in-themselves," objects as they exist apart from perception.

No, he said that the treatment of an object problematically--that is without
regard to existence--necessitated consideration of an intellectual form about
which we could have no grounded knowledge.

There is a wonderful analogue to some of Kant's ideas in Jerry Seligman's
"Perspectives in Situation Theory." I doubt that Mr. Seligman even realizes
it. But, there is a significant amount of analytical philosophy done before Mr.
Seligman gets to the issues of predictive coherence (time-determination under
apperception) and the definition of objects relative to a succession of
situations from a given perspectival domain.

Instead of "intelligibilty" and "sensibility" we have "classified situations"
and "grounded types." It's a resource to which anyone can turn just to see how
ridiculous these characterizations of "things-in-themselves" have become in pop
interpretations of Kant.



Quote:
But at
the same time Kant thought he was vindicating both a scientific realism,
where science really knows the world, and a moral realism, where there is
objective moral obligation, for both of which a connection to external
existence is essential.


This is probably true to some extent. A better Kant scholar than I should
remark.

But, one should keep in mind that Kant's critical ideality precluded him from
the nihilism/existentialism (?) that a materialist perspective would have
permitted him.

Sorry if I used any words wrong there.




Quote:

And there were also terribly important features of things-in-themselves that
we do have some notion about and that are of fundamental importance to human
life, not just morality but what he called the three "Ideas" of reason:
God, freedom, and immortality.

Well, "ideas of reason" are not features of noumena.

Kant was responding to Hume by keeping focused on necessity. His analytical
philosophy was based on a structured examination of syllogistic reasoning,

"In what precise modes the pure concepts of reason
come under these three headings of all transcendental
ideas will be fully explained in the next chapter. They
follow the guiding thread of the categories. For pure
reason never relates directly to objects, but to the
concepts which understanding frames in regard to
objects. Similarly, it is only by the process of completing
our argument that it can be shown how reason, simply
by the synthetic employment of that very function of
which it makes use in categorical syllogisms, is
necessarily brought to the concept of the absolute
unity of the thinking subject, how the logical procedure
used in hypothetical syllogisms leads to the idea of
the completely unconditioned in a series of given
conditions, and finally how the mere form of the
disjunctive syllogism must necessarily involve the
highest concept of reason, that of a being of all
beings--a thought which, at first sight, seems utterly
paradoxical.

"No objective deduction, such as we have been
able to give of the categories, is, strictly speaking,
possible in the case of these transcendental ideas."


Well, let's see....

There is grace and there is determinism.

There is belief and there is singularity.

There is a soul and there is a consumer.

Take your pick.




What Kant is really doing with ideas of reason is a lot like "first-order" and
"second-order" in logic.

He writes:

"Now the transcendental concept of reason is
directed always solely towards the absolute totality
in the synthesis of conditions, and never terminates
save in what is absolutely, that is, in all relations,
unconditioned. For pure reason leaves everything
to the understanding--the understanding [alone]
applying immediately to the objects of intuition, or
rather to their synthesis in the imagination. Reason
concerns itself exclusively with absolute totality in
the employment of the concepts of the understanding,
and endeavors to carry the synthetic unity, which
is thought in the category, up to the completely
unconditioned. We may call this unity of appearances
the unity of reason, and that expressed by the category
the unity of understanding. Reason accordingly occupies
itself solely with the employment of the understanding,
not indeed in so far as the latter contains the ground
of possible experience (for the concept of the absolute
totality of conditions is not applicable in any experience,
since no experience is unconditioned [Really, try to find
a copy of Seligman's paper, "Perspectives in Situation
Theory" to how this expresses such a deep contrast
between 'philosophers in an armchair' with 'the real
world' -- mitch]), but solely in order to prescribe to the
understanding its direction towards a certain unity of
which it has itself no concept, and in such manner as
to unite all the acts of the understanding, in respect of
every object, into an absolute whole. The objective
employment of the pure concepts of reason is, therefore,
always transcendent, while that of the pure concepts
of the understanding must, in accordance with their
nature, and inasmuch as their application is solely to
possible experience, be always immanent."


What use are experts when they have no sense of accuracy? Where in any of this
are the ideas of reason described as "features"?



Quote:
Kant always believed that the rational
structure of the mind reflected the rational structure of the world, even of
things-in-themselves -- that the "operating system" of the processor, by
modern analogy, matched the operating system of reality.


One might say that Kant had *faith* that the totality and unity encompassed by
the concept of necessary existence was not dishonest.

On the other hand, one might observe that Kant was not influenced by
Neo-Kantianism and did not even see the issue, as stated, to be relevant.

I would bet on the latter possibility.



Quote:

But Kant had no real argument for this -- the "Ideas" of reason just become
"postulates" of morality -- and his system leaves it as something
unprovable. The paradoxes of Kant's efforts to reconcile his conflicting
approaches and requirements made it very difficult for most later
philosophers to take the overall system seriously.

http://www.friesian.com/kant.htm


Hegel took it seriously,

"Thought must itself investigate its own capacity of
knowledge. People in the present day have got
over Kant and his philosophy: everybody wants
to get further. But there are two ways of going
further--a backward and a forward. The light of
criticism soon shows that many of our modern
essays in philosophy are mere repetitions of the
old metaphysical method, an endless and uncritical
thinking in a groove determined by the natural
bent of each man's mind."

Heidegger also took it seriously,

"In the sixties (1860's) Mills "Logic" was known
far and wide. The possibility of an investigation
into the structure of the particular sciences offered
the prospect of an autonomous task for philosophy
while at the same time preserving the inherent rights
of the particular sciences. This task recalled Kant's
"Critique of Pure Reason," which itself was interpreted
as an exercise in the philosophy of science. The
return to Kant, the renewal of Kantian philosophy,
the founding of Neo-Kantianism all take place from
a particular line of questioning, that of philosophy of
science. This is a narrow conception of Kant which
we only now are again trying to overcome."




The real issue is much simpler than the excerpt wants to admit: Kant is hard.

I will re-iterate that the "postulates" of morality goes back to the fact that
Kant was not a materialist. Without the rigor of the deduction in "Critique of
Pure Reason," his further pursuit of these issues would probably appear
unfounded. I am not personally familiar with the larger scope of his
philosophy; so it is quite possible that he slips back into dialectical illusion
that is deserving of such casual criticism. But that is for someone other than
me to clarify.

There is one thing I should note. Hegel applies the same criticism to Kant's
use of the categories as, say, "undefined" and "primitive." As part of his
attempt to "extend the philosophic Idea" he combines Fichte's deduction of the
categories with some of Kant's critical philosophy. Since I have knowledge of
the facts here, I concede Hegel's criticism, although I am uncertain of his
larger plan since it begins with an outright declaration of metaphysical
intent. More to read, I guess.


Quote:

-------------------------------------

Kant locates the order of nature in reason. Reason does for the
understanding what understanding does for the manifold of intuition - "the
understanding is an object for reason, just as sensibility is for the
understanding." Reason's regulative capacity renders the unconditioned
totality of objects systematic. There are three ideas of reason: self, world
and God. God is the Ideal of Reason, whose concept

aims . . . at complete determination in accordance with a priori rules.
Accordingly it thinks for itself an object which it regards as being
completely determinable in accordance with princi ples,

that is, in accordance with universal a priori cognition. This ideal of the
ens realissimum, of the universal concept of a reality in general, is then
thought of as containing the being of all beings. But as an idea of reason,
the ens realissimum is never met with in appearances. The Ideal of Reason
does not satisfy the transcendental conditions and so cannot be considered
objectively real. As such, Kant holds that the existence of God cannot be
proved by speculative reason.

Kant argues that there are three, and only three, possible ways in which
speculative reason can argue for the existence of God, characterized as the
Ideal of Reason. But all fail to prove God's existence. Reason, according to
Kant's analysis, can attempt to prove God's existence by either an empirical
or a transcendental path, both of which involve going beyond the scope of
reason to the transcendental concept. Consequently, Kant first discusses the
transcendental proof of God's existence, arguing that the other proofs
ultimately depend on it. The ontological argument moves from idea to
existence, arguing that the essence of a supreme and perfect being involves
existence. Kant argues that this type of proof fails to recognize that
existence is not a predicate, and that to call it so is to claim that there
is a quality in the world corresponding to it.

...In his two earlier works, Kant asks the question 'How is the realm of
possibility possible?', whereas in the Critique the question of possibility
has become an epistemological problem rather than an ontological one. The
problem is now seen in terms of a structure of conditions related to the
possibility of cognition, not as a problem requiring the proof of a single
actual ground. Kant's argument that existence is not a predicate is given
new force by his transcendental analysis, which shows that God's existence
is not an issue in the realm of reason. If the transcendental analysis is
accepted, and we therefore see that all existential propositions are
synthetic, we cannot, without contradiction, maintain that existence is a
predicate.

...Kant's rejection of all possible proofs of God's existence and his moving
God out of the sphere of ontology, rules out the traditional ground of a
systematic universe. He therefore must provide some other explanation of how
we perceive the world as systematic and purposive.26 Some principle of
systematicity is necessary to account for the interconnectedness or
coherence we perceive in nature. Kant explains systematicity in terms of
epistemology. For Kant, systematicity is the creative organization of our
cognition of nature in accordance with certain regulative principles. These
principles are the ideas of reason. Reason prescribes a logical principle
that assists

the understanding by means of ideas, in those cases in which the
understanding cannot by itself establish rules, and at the same time ...
give[s] to the numerous and diverse rules of the understanding unity or
system under a single principle.

At the level of the understanding there is no system. An idea, as a
regulative principle, supplies a rule for systematization. Kant
distinguishes this from the 'Ideal of Reason', which supplies the notion of
an 'archetype' or individual ground for systematization.28 This too must be
seen as only regulative, as it has no content, that is, 'God' does not
correspond to the concept of God. It is the regulative ideal of nature that
makes possible the unity of nature itself. The Ideal of nature, as
regulative, has a purely methodological status.

Kant moves from systematicity to purposiveness. He argues that saying that
all things are part of a system is tantamount to saying that all things have
a purpose within that system. To see things as systematic, for Kant, is to
see them as in "seemingly purposive arrangements." A move cannot be made
from purposive order to God, because God has no matter of intuition, that
is, God is not 'given' to sensibility and so does not conform to the
transcendental conditions. But there is an analogical correspondence between
systematicity and God. They are logically equivalent and "it must be a
matter of complete indifference to us, when we say we perceive . . . unity,
whether we say that God in his wisdom has willed it to be so, or that nature
has wisely arranged it thus." From a philosophical point of view, God as
creator corresponds to system. The principle of God is not needed to explain
nature. All that is needed is the principle of systematicity. Analogy
between teleology and theology gives meaning or content to our idea of God.
But to designate what the relationship is between God and the world in
itself is completely outside the conditions of possible experience.

In the Critique, it no longer makes sense to ask whether natural laws form a
systematic whole. The ideal of reason is simply the principle of systematic
unity. This unity has no ontological significance, since it does not exist
empirically. Rather it is "a mere fiction," or "a mere illusion," with "no
object that can be met in any experience." When we act according to the
principle of systematicity, we presuppose that nature is a completed system.
Despite this status, Kant claims that we need the idea of systematic unity,
that we "must" assume it. This is, in Kant's eyes, the strongest possible
argument for God - not for the existence of God in the constitutive or
formal sense, as no such proof is possible, but for the meaningfulness of
the idea of God in the cognitive sphere.

IMMORTALIST:
[Therefore it takes time to systematize cognitively?]


The time-determination of apperception establishes a certain connectivity of
concepts. Specifically, there is a manifold of intuition giving material
sensation under the pure a priori forms of sensibility, space and time. This
synthesis of apprehension accounts for a succession of connected representations
whose coherent individuating principle is governed by the phrase, "in so far as
it is contained in a single moment."

From this, you get the notion of "predictive coherence" [from Seligman's
paper]. In Kant's words,

"Every intuition contains in itself a manifold which
can be represented as a manifold only in so far as
the mind distinguishes the time in the sequence of
one impression upon another;"

So the very notion of object (as in "nature is the complex of all the objects of
experience") depends on the time-determination (as in "we do not know nature but
as the totality of appearances, i.e., of representations in us, and hence we can
only derive the laws of its connection from the principles of its connection in
us, that is, from the conditions of their necessary union in consciousness,
which constitutes the possibility of experience.")

Kant distinguishes the manifold of intuition from the manifold consequent to the
synthesis of apprehension (the time-determination) by saying that while both are
manifolds, the first has no representation as a manifold contained in a single
representation.

Just for kicks, think about the contrast between the well-described topology of
general relativity under the spacetime metric and the probablistic/fuzzy
specification of topologies constituting the quantum foam preceding the Plank
time.

Given all of that, the opening passage discussing schematism begins with:

"In all subsumptions of an object under a concept
the representation of the object must be *homogeneous*
with the concept; in other words, the concept must
contain something which is represented in the object
that is to be subsumed under it. This in fact is what is
meant by the expression 'an object contained under a
concept.' Thus, the empirical concept of a plate is
homogeneous with the pure geometrical concept of
a circle. The roundness which is thought in the latter
can be intuited in the former."

The key word here is "homogeneous" because this is the sense in which an object
"coheres" across moments. In Seligman's paper, you get a "perspectival domain"
and a sequence of "situations." The "perspective shifts" associated with the
sequence of "situations" are associated with the mathematical relation of
inclusion (the essential issue is "one-to-one" and the concept of inclusion is
the category-theoretic [toposes specifically] analogue to model-theoretic
concept of formal identity). Seligman uses this to define an "object" relative
to a sequence of "subobjects."

Returning to Kant, he gives an example:

"When for instance, by apprehension of the manifold
of a house I make the empirical intuition of it into a
perception, the necessary unity of space and of outer
sensible intuition in general lies at the basis of my
apprehension, and I draw as it were the outline of
the house in conformity with this synthetic unity of
the manifold in space. But if I abstract from the form
of space, this same synthetic unity has its seat in the
understanding, and is the category of the synthesis of
the homogeneous in an intuition in general, that is,
the category of quantity. To this category, therefore,
the synthesis of apprehension, that is to say, the
perception, must completely conform."


If you look at Hegel's "Logic" you will see that he treats "Identity" in his
Doctrine of Essence. Nevertheless, there is a notion of abstract identity
contained in his Doctrine of Being. It is restricted to the discussion of
Number and Magnitude. All of these special delineations correspond to the
modern logico-mathematical concept of "one-to-one" with respect to equality or
inclusion.

Anyway, schematism involves the fact that the concepts of understanding are
restricted to satisfy conditions of sensibility. Images of objects are the
product of imagination, and, imagination is a key faculty in the synthesis of
apperception. The schema of a concept, however, is the representation of a
universal procedure of imagination in providing images.

It is by virtue of the mediation of schemata that permit Kant to write a
statement like:

"Our exposition therefore establishes the reality,
that is, the objective validity, of space in respect
of whatever can be presented to us outwardly as
object, but also at the same time the ideality of
space in respect of things when they are considered
in themselves through reason, that is, without
regard to the constitution of our sensibility."

Now what is so hard about that? As I said above, he established a distinction
clarifying objective and subjective. He did not deny reality. In like fashion,

"Time is therefore to be regarded as real, not
indeed as object but as the mode of representation
of myself as object"

"I exist as an intellligence which is conscious solely
of its power of combination; but in respect of the
manifold which it has to combine I am subjected
to a limiting condition (entitled inner sense), namely
that this combination can be made intuitable only
according to relations of time, which lie entirely
outside the concepts of the understanding, strictly
regarded."


If you now apply the regress of the conditioned to its necessary completion in
the unconditioned, you get the regulative systematization reason affords to the
understanding.



Quote:

The Critique of Pure Reason, then, moves God out of the realm of ontology
and into that of epistemology. The concept of God is involved in cognition,
but is merely an analogical image. From the standpoint of speculative
reason, God has no objective reality. Yet Kant posits two types of reality,
the cognitive and the moral.

Once again, I do not see this as "positing." Kant was not a materialist. The
ideas of reason are independent of his conception of a material universe in the
sense that sensation is the matter of appearances. He was interpreting a degree
of freedom unavailable to materialists.


Quote:
These two points of view are tied together by
reason. The concept of sensation is not simply a negative boundary to stop
us from bringing up: something that lies behind sensation. Kant wants us to
leave this something completely unspecified in the realm of cognition. God
is indeterminable in the sphere of understanding, determinable in the sphere
of reason, and determinate in the sphere of moral experience.

But given the particular accuracy of this excerpt, I will certainly defer to
what is written here since I lack knowledge about his ethical writings.


Quote:
There are then
two view points, the cognitive, which includes understanding and reason, and
the realm of moral experience. Kant retains the reality and determinability
of God in the sphere of moral experience. Only the reality of God makes
morality possible. In terms of empirical cognition, however, we cannot go
beyond the bounds of the a priori conditions. Only Kant's analysis of moral
experience lets us go beyond the analogical level.

God in Kant's Critique of Pure Reason
http://www.mun.ca/phil/codgito/vol3/v3doc1.html


Oh well, if nothing else, everyone gets a few more quotes they can use to decide
for themselves.

That is the mandate of a critical philosophy anyway.

:-)

mitch
HPO Jury = Malenoid
Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2003 10:36 am
Guest
On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 10:30:31 +0100, Jos Horikx
<REMOVECAPITALS.jhorikx@chello.nl> wrote:

Quote:
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 09:15:08 -0700, HPO Jury = Malenoid
Malenoid@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 12:31:12 +0100, Jos Horikx
REMOVECAPITALS.jhorikx@chello.nl> wrote:

( Kant, Kritik der reinen Vernunft, translation into English, page:
http://www.phil.pku.edu.cn/resguide/Kant/CPR/18.html#514 )

I'm still searching for an e-text that retains the original A/B
pagination, useful for citations. Looks like I'll have to make one of
my own.

I think/feel the same.

But luckely one of the advantages of the internet is, that, when
one quotes correctly, many times the text itself can easily be
found back on the internet using Google. So one of the reasons
for giving the proper references (that is: to enable the reader the
check for correctness) loses in importance.

That's a good point, if someone thinks to check the source that way.



--
A man does what he must -- in spite of personal
consequences, in spite of obstacles and dangers and
pressures -- and that is the basis of all human
morality.
-
John F. Kennedy
mitch
Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2003 10:38 pm
Guest
Immortalist wrote:

Quote:
"mitch" <mitchs@rcnNOSPAM.com> wrote in message
news:3FD85571.676C24B@rcnNOSPAM.com...


Yuck. You know, I'm just a guy who likes math and knows the difference
between
a Boolean algebra (Frege and logicism) and a Boolean ring (Kant and
intuitionism).


Can you explain that in a coherent way?


Kant distinguished between analytic and synthetic on the basis of "identity."
But, this is a somewhat ambigous statement in light of modern developments.

In this particular instance, I mean that "Every Boolean algebra of sets is a
Boolean ring of sets" follows from topological closure properties rather than
the arithmetic properties. The arithmetic difference is in the "group
addition."

Addition in a Boolean algebra of sets is set-theoretic union:

A cup B


Addition in a Boolean ring of sets is set-theoretic symmetric difference:

(A - B) cup (B - A)


Classical model theory requires that the universal quantifier is interpreted
with a set. This forces model theory to deal with Boolean algebras and forces
set theory to deal with an infinite regress or a chaotic tree (?) of models.

Goedel's constructible universe is a "class model." It does not require one to
define truth in terms of an object. Its axiomatic assertion, V=L, respects the
mathematical structuralism implicit to Kant's delineation between the
Transcendental Aesthetic and the Transcendental Logic.

In all fairness, Frege was not the one responsible for interpreting truth with
respect to model-theoretic objects. But, the current state of affairs is a
result of logicist thinking that built upon his early work. Note, however, this
excerpt from "The Frege Reader,"

"[In a diary that he kept from 10 March to 9 May 1924,
Frege wrote, on 23 March: 'My efforts to become clear
about what is meant by number have resulted in failure.
We are only too easily misled by language and in this
particular case the way we are misled is little short
of disastrous.' In the last eighteen months of his life,
Frege attempted to come to terms with this, and drew
the conclusion that arithmetic had to be given a
geometrical rather than logical foundation. [...] Frege
distinguishes three sources of knowledge: sense perception,
the logical source of knowledge, and the geometrical and
temporal sources of knowledge. Frege continues to insist
that 'For mathematics on its own, we do not need sense
perception as a source of knowledge' but he now also
rejects logic as providing the sole source of knowledge
of arithmetic. [...]]"


:-)

mitch
HPO Jury = Malenoid
Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2003 10:56 pm
Guest
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 21:38:46 -0600, mitch <mitchs@rcnNOSPAM.com>
wrote:

Quote:


Immortalist wrote:

"mitch" <mitchs@rcnNOSPAM.com> wrote in message
news:3FD85571.676C24B@rcnNOSPAM.com...


Yuck. You know, I'm just a guy who likes math and knows the difference
between
a Boolean algebra (Frege and logicism) and a Boolean ring (Kant and
intuitionism).


Can you explain that in a coherent way?


Kant distinguished between analytic and synthetic on the basis of "identity."
But, this is a somewhat ambigous statement in light of modern developments.

You are talking about Immanuel Kant, 18th century Critical
philosopher, correct? Because that sure doesn't sound like the "Kant"
myself and others are familiar with.

--
Prof. F: Would there be any context in which an
individual human being would not be an entity?
AR: Almost any of them today.
[Laughter]
--
"Americans want to consume like capitalists,
but work/invest like socialists." Tom S.
mitch
Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2003 11:32 pm
Guest
Immortalist wrote:

Quote:
"mitch" <mitchs@rcnNOSPAM.com> wrote in message
news:3FD85571.676C24B@rcnNOSPAM.com...


Having said that, I will give it a try. Mind you, though, I don't have
the
ethical philosophy to say squat.



For Kant the Christian could have faith in God, and this faith would be
consonant with reason and the categorical imperative. Given that human
beings have the autonomy to create moral values, it would not be
irrational
to believe in a God who gives purpose to the moral realm.

Søren Kierkegaard (1813-1855) agreed with Kant that the existence of God
could not be proven by reason. However Kierkegaard did not think that it
was
rational to believe in God, rather one should have faith in God even if
this
seems to reason to be absurd. To put it another way reason has no place
in
faith. God is beyond reason.

http://www.philosopher.org.uk/god.htm

I know that Kant made efforts to abide by the self-consistent synthesis in
"Critique of Pure Reason." But, I do not know what he may have said to
justify
someone writing "However, Kierkegaard did not think it was rational..." as
if
this was in oppositon to Kant.

Kant's "Critique of Pure Reason" is grounded on the problematic
investigation of
an object--that is, without regard for its existence. So, when he gets to
discussing speculation concerning a supreme being, he turns to the
existence
question in light of his prior work.

First of all, he observes that reason must regress from the conditioned to
the
unconditioned,

"...--were it not that it is impelled from another
direction to seek a resting-place in the regress
from the conditioned, which is given, to the
unconditioned. This unconditioned is not, indeed,
given as being in itself real, nor as having a reality
that follows from its mere concept; it is, however,
what alone can complete the series of conditions
when we trace these conditions to their grounds."

So, obviously, he moves from knowledge to belief. But, the issue now is a
matter of existence. He writes,

"If we admit something as existing, no matter what
this something may be, we must also admit that
there is something which exists necessarily."

And, he is definitely commited to the existence of something. The second
edition of "Critique of Pure Reason" included his refutation of idealism
whereby
the time-determination of self is accomplished with respect to permanence
associated with the matter of sensation.

Moreover, the "Critique of Pure Reason" had already encapsulated
dialectical
illusion by distinguishing logic from reason, whence the law of
contradiction is
distinguished from the sum-total of possibilities. He is running out of
options
to disentangle his ideas.

He writes:

"Such, then, is the natural procedure of human
reason. It begins by persuading itself of the
existence of some necessary being. This being
it apprehends as having an existence that is
unconditioned. It then looks around for the
concept of a single being that is likewise the
supreme being. Accordingly, we conclude that
the supreme being, as primordial ground of all
things, must exist by absolute necessity.

"If what we have in view is the coming to a
decision--if, that is to say, the existence of some
sort of necessary being is taken as granted, and
if it be agreed further that we must come to a
decision as to what it is--then the foregoing
way of thinking must be allowed to have a
certain cogency. [...]"

Now keep in mind the lovely bedtime reading that has accompanied my
remarks
concerning Kant. How about a short paper on Dempster-Schafer belief
models.
The Bayesian interpretations are closely related to decision theory. I
think I
tried to recommend a paper describing a topological model for epistemic
intentionality precisely because of the remark,

"The uniqueness of the intentional state is
linked to the impossible ubiquity of the
subject on the response surface. Even when
s/he is in a bifurcation zone, in relation
to his/her history, s/he can occupy only
one position. This constraint, that will be
discussed below, is psychologically linked
to the fact that intentional epistemic states
are linked to action and that action cannot
divide itself into several parallel universes."



Yes, instead of decrying philosophy, see how it conforms or not to that or
how points of view should be adjusted.


Modern reference: Dretske's data semantics in terms of confirmations and
refutations.

It is used by Seligman and is closely related to
intuitionist/constructionist/structuralist perspectives on mathematics.


Quote:

Kant recognized that decision was not the same as deduction and that
decision
was the result of our perception of choice relative to the confinement
imposed
by the reality of action within experience.


What did he say about engagement though. Appearance and reality aren't
alone, their is muscle movements that could be portrayed as in "direct
realism" direct engagement."

I have prima facie evidence that sensory activities are taking place

I have prima facie evidence that I moved me muscles


These things are the "matter" of sensation. They are not form.

They are ultimately the ground for his refutation of idealism (and solipsism).


Quote:

In other words, Kant was well aware that God was beyond reason. The
problem is
how one resolves the question of *necessary* existence. Belief is
consonant
with faith because faith justifies belief (at least that is all I can
conclude
from these quotes). But, there is no criterion for determining the truth
of
justified belief, and, when I recommended the paper discussing the
Dempster-Schafer belief model, the one I recommended discussed an
interpretation
of "transferable belief" that was neither monotonic or Bayesian. The
concept of
faith under consideration here does not get quantified and represented
under the
time-determination of apperception and cannot be deduced from the law of
contradiction.


But these ideas of God grew up out of other similar appearances or concepts
and surely they can be appreciated because we engage appearances daily?


Concepts force one to pursue grounds (sensible intuition).

Appearances force one to pursue types (intelligible representation).

Moving either away from the other is a result of dialectical illusion. Kant did
discuss a hierarchy of terms for speaking of regulative principles. The idea
here is to abstract from Leibniz' self-correcting nature of God's influence to
regulative principles. But, you should not try to separate Kant's regulative
principles. Think about the structuralism of quantum mechanics.... singleton
states and triplet states. Assigning identity (singleton state) generates the
regress.



Quote:

But, as I said, I am unaware how he may have developed his ideas in later
works.


Did he explain sensory phenomenon that is present in us in his skeptical
point of view? Did he have to have faith that he moved his legs when he
appeared to walk on the world reality?

He has specific guidelines for the application of skepticism only with respect
to dogmatic defense of metaphysical assertion. He did not consider the "derived
metaphysics" of epistemic limitation subject to such skeptical treatment.

That is one of the problems with philosophical training. I have seen a great
deal on "burden of proof." But, theories of epistemic limitation should not be
interpreted as an assertion of metaphysics. It defeats itself. There is no
reason to debate it.


Quote:






---------------------------------

But if the mind actively generates perception, this raises the question
whether the result has anything to do with the world, or if so, how
much.
The answer to the question, unusual, ambiguous, or confusing as it would
be,
made for endless trouble both in Kant's thought and for a posterity
trying
to figure him out.

This is accurate, but somewhat misleading. In Norman Kemp Smith's
commentary (I
just happened to read a relevant paragraph when I opened on a bookstore
shelf)
Kant's dilemma is discussed a little more realisically.


-----------------------------------

Kant was more involved with a nature/nurture kind of distinction. He had
no
doubts about his ideality of space and time derived from consideration of
the a
priori. He simply was not certain about whether it was innate with
respect to
physiological structure or innate with respect to mechanisms underlying
learned
behavior.


Very good. Is this opinion shared?

Well, andy-k decided that many "explanations" of Kant seemed to be at odds with
the things I quote. I think there is an entire mystical anti-Kantism in a lot
of works out there. But, I only conclude that from just a few conversations
with andy-k who has expended much effort in his own inquiries. He questions as
much as he answers. I trust the intuitions of his statements, although my
interpretation of them is inaccurate. So, I do not think this is a shared
opinion.



Quote:
It's the way I viewed Kant since E.O.
Wilson came out with the book "On Human Nature" in 1978?

Isn't the current understanding that the learned part is an instinct
replacement, or the range of learned material, falls within the necessary
conditions for the reproduction of the species and on top of that the
reproduction of culture memes. This then the gene mutations that survived in
humans generally became learning areas in the brain once controlled by
instincts. Like Adam Smiths little factory and the division of labor making
more stuff going on with the same amount of people, the various parts of the
brain came uncoupled from instinctual fibers.

----------------------------------


My mathematics has driven me so close to Saussere's structuralism that...

.... I cannot comment on what science thinks. I have a cognitive psychology book
that explains certain neural structures with representations that allow me to
explain quantum physics as an overly-complicated version of Descartes'
explanation of how the eye works. Go figure.



Quote:

I am going to guess that it is a little of both. The back of the eye
(remember
Descartes?) has arrangement of cells referred to as on-off cells and
off-on
cells. These things essentially have inverted functions. They both
discern
light intensity in peripheral vision from light intensity in the center of
focus. Obviously, one arrangement acknowledges bright peripheral stimuli
and
the other acknowledges bright focal stimuli. On the other hand, recently
reported (Science News or Scientific American in the last two years)
studies in
word recognition indicated the importance of pauses between elements as
necessary for aural stimuli to be interpreted as grammatical.

These are both very simple sensory primitives that can be given analogues
in our
"scientific" development of mathematics. That would be consistent with
Kant's
experiential foundation. But, one has no particular reason to conclude
ideality
until faced with someone like David Hume.

There really is no resolution to the regress here. But, at least Kant's
philosophy is robust enough to say, "Hey, there is no resolution of the
regress
until you are driven to some decision with respect to unconditioned
acceptance."


But the giveness of sensory inputs is a termination that has not been
refuted. Why regress? [i don't care how much it sounds like i know kant,
just following through on some basic ideas]


Logic.

Kant distinguished between the negative criterion of logic and the confirming
criterion of logic.

The giveness of sensory input is the ground for actuality--that is, the
conceptual framework that is deduced from sensory giveness. But, logic is
dialectical. It presumes universal laws without grounds. It is that process
that invariably leads to unfounded regress. Reason is regulative and
self-correcting. But, it cannot assert a metaphysics. So, when one tries to
build a metaphysics, one is confronted with a regression.

Hegel appropriately encapsulated the problem in his reflective/dual
presentations in his "Logic." Identity, difference, and ground stand in ternary
relation to one another.

What you will find in all of this...

invariant -->
contravariant -->
covariant -->

These are the modern, fancy words for what Kant said when he introduced his
categories. The categories were organized into two pairs of triples.

This is the structure that confused Plato when he mused about mathematicians
studying "eternal truths" while constantly changing their assumptions. :-)

Think of it in terms of the diagram,

|
|
|
|
|
*----------
/
/
/
/
/


invariant, contravariant, covariant correspond to the axes.




Quote:




To the extent that knowledge depends on the structure of
the mind and not on the world, knowledge would have no connection to the
world and is not even true representation, just a solipsistic or
intersubjective fantasy.


This is the author's fantasy... Not Kant's.


How would Kant talk about moving his muscles and seeing with his eyes in a
way that would argue against their happening or constituting at least some
evidence?


He would not. All sensation associated with such things constitute evidence.

The problem with this quote is that it ignores everything Kant says in his
refutation of idealism.


Quote:



Kantianism seems threatened with "psychologism," the doctrine that what
we
know is our own psychology, not external things.

Nineteenth century Neo-Kantianism--perhaps the first "me generation."

You "know" nothing if you have no sense of what it is for knowledge to be
objective. Kant dealt with the distinction between objective and
subjective
knowledge. The result should have been some humility.

The nineteenth century was characterized by a quickening of the industrial
revolution and rising nationalism. That's a generation that typifies
humility
if ever there was one, eh?

Heidegger notes that Kant was rediscovered in the nineteenth century and
misinterpreted in the advancement of the sciences. Thus we end up with
Kantian
rigor and a materialist ethic (John Stuart Mill and Adam Smith, methinks).


But Smith acknowledged that price is a statistical field of interactions,
supply and demand, and designed the first metaphysics of self-replicating
features. There was a bunch of stuff coming together then but each aspect
was in seperate areas, social science, science method, etc...


I would not know.

I know that the input/output models of economics leverage the same kind of
matrix mathematics as does quantum mechanics.

I find that curiously frightening. I look forward to learning more about
British empiricism. But, I would hate to think that German idealism is
essentially illusory and there is only the exchange of economic power in a
monadological universe.


Quote:



Kant did say, consistent
with psychologism, that basically we don't know about
"things-in-themselves," objects as they exist apart from perception.

No, he said that the treatment of an object problematically--that is
without
regard to existence--necessitated consideration of an intellectual form
about
which we could have no grounded knowledge.


I agree that this is probably what he meant. But how do muscle movements
reckon with such a notion, when the appearance of reality changed in
accourdance with our willed engagement with reality?


That would not be epistemology. When interpreting "Critique of Pure Reason" it
is important to understand the strict constraints under which Kant worked.



Quote:

There is a wonderful analogue to some of Kant's ideas in Jerry Seligman's
"Perspectives in Situation Theory." I doubt that Mr. Seligman even
realizes
it. But, there is a significant amount of analytical philosophy done
before Mr.
Seligman gets to the issues of predictive coherence (time-determination
under
apperception) and the definition of objects relative to a succession of
situations from a given perspectival domain.

Instead of "intelligibilty" and "sensibility" we have "classified
situations"
and "grounded types." It's a resource to which anyone can turn just to
see how
ridiculous these characterizations of "things-in-themselves" have become
in pop
interpretations of Kant.


gotta go. thanx for the closer look at those i found on the web and what
they said.


Believe me. I am not the one to be doing this. :-)

:-)

mitch


Quote:



But at
the same time Kant thought he was vindicating both a scientific realism,
where science really knows the world, and a moral realism, where there
is
objective moral obligation, for both of which a connection to external
existence is essential.


This is probably true to some extent. A better Kant scholar than I should
remark.

But, one should keep in mind that Kant's critical ideality precluded him
from
the nihilism/existentialism (?) that a materialist perspective would have
permitted him.

Sorry if I used any words wrong there.





And there were also terribly important features of things-in-themselves
that
we do have some notion about and that are of fundamental importance to
human
life, not just morality but what he called the three "Ideas" of reason:
God, freedom, and immortality.

Well, "ideas of reason" are not features of noumena.

Kant was responding to Hume by keeping focused on necessity. His
analytical
philosophy was based on a structured examination of syllogistic reasoning,

"In what precise modes the pure concepts of reason
come under these three headings of all transcendental
ideas will be fully explained in the next chapter. They
follow the guiding thread of the categories. For pure
reason never relates directly to objects, but to the
concepts which understanding frames in regard to
objects. Similarly, it is only by the process of completing
our argument that it can be shown how reason, simply
by the synthetic employment of that very function of
which it makes use in categorical syllogisms, is
necessarily brought to the concept of the absolute
unity of the thinking subject, how the logical procedure
used in hypothetical syllogisms leads to the idea of
the completely unconditioned in a series of given
conditions, and finally how the mere form of the
disjunctive syllogism must necessarily involve the
highest concept of reason, that of a being of all
beings--a thought which, at first sight, seems utterly
paradoxical.

"No objective deduction, such as we have been
able to give of the categories, is, strictly speaking,
possible in the case of these transcendental ideas."


Well, let's see....

There is grace and there is determinism.

There is belief and there is singularity.

There is a soul and there is a consumer.

Take your pick.




What Kant is really doing with ideas of reason is a lot like "first-order"
and
"second-order" in logic.

He writes:

"Now the transcendental concept of reason is
directed always solely towards the absolute totality
in the synthesis of conditions, and never terminates
save in what is absolutely, that is, in all relations,
unconditioned. For pure reason leaves everything
to the understanding--the understanding [alone]
applying immediately to the objects of intuition, or
rather to their synthesis in the imagination. Reason
concerns itself exclusively with absolute totality in
the employment of the concepts of the understanding,
and endeavors to carry the synthetic unity, which
is thought in the category, up to the completely
unconditioned. We may call this unity of appearances
the unity of reason, and that expressed by the category
the unity of understanding. Reason accordingly occupies
itself solely with the employment of the understanding,
not indeed in so far as the latter contains the ground
of possible experience (for the concept of the absolute
totality of conditions is not applicable in any experience,
since no experience is unconditioned [Really, try to find
a copy of Seligman's paper, "Perspectives in Situation
Theory" to how this expresses such a deep contrast
between 'philosophers in an armchair' with 'the real
world' -- mitch]), but solely in order to prescribe to the
understanding its direction towards a certain unity of
which it has itself no concept, and in such manner as
to unite all the acts of the understanding, in respect of
every object, into an absolute whole. The objective
employment of the pure concepts of reason is, therefore,
always transcendent, while that of the pure concepts
of the understanding must, in accordance with their
nature, and inasmuch as their application is solely to
possible experience, be always immanent."


What use are experts when they have no sense of accuracy? Where in any of
this
are the ideas of reason described as "features"?



Kant always believed that the rational
structure of the mind reflected the rational structure of the world,
even of
things-in-themselves -- that the "operating system" of the processor, by
modern analogy, matched the operating system of reality.


One might say that Kant had *faith* that the totality and unity
encompassed by
the concept of necessary existence was not dishonest.

On the other hand, one might observe that Kant was not influenced by
Neo-Kantianism and did not even see the issue, as stated, to be relevant.

I would bet on the latter possibility.




But Kant had no real argument for this -- the "Ideas" of reason just
become
"postulates" of morality -- and his system leaves it as something
unprovable. The paradoxes of Kant's efforts to reconcile his conflicting
approaches and requirements made it very difficult for most later
philosophers to take the overall system seriously.

http://www.friesian.com/kant.htm


Hegel took it seriously,

"Thought must itself investigate its own capacity of
knowledge. People in the present day have got
over Kant and his philosophy: everybody wants
to get further. But there are two ways of going
further--a backward and a forward. The light of
criticism soon shows that many of our modern
essays in philosophy are mere repetitions of the
old metaphysical method, an endless and uncritical
thinking in a groove determined by the natural
bent of each man's mind."

Heidegger also took it seriously,

"In the sixties (1860's) Mills "Logic" was known
far and wide. The possibility of an investigation
into the structure of the particular sciences offered
the prospect of an autonomous task for philosophy
while at the same time preserving the inherent rights
of the particular sciences. This task recalled Kant's
"Critique of Pure Reason," which itself was interpreted
as an exercise in the philosophy of science. The
return to Kant, the renewal of Kantian philosophy,
the founding of Neo-Kantianism all take place from
a particular line of questioning, that of philosophy of
science. This is a narrow conception of Kant which
we only now are again trying to overcome."




The real issue is much simpler than the excerpt wants to admit: Kant is
hard.

I will re-iterate that the "postulates" of morality goes back to the fact
that
Kant was not a materialist. Without the rigor of the deduction in
"Critique of
Pure Reason," his further pursuit of these issues would probably appear
unfounded. I am not personally familiar with the larger scope of his
philosophy; so it is quite possible that he slips back into dialectical
illusion
that is deserving of such casual criticism. But that is for someone other
than
me to clarify.

There is one thing I should note. Hegel applies the same criticism to
Kant's
use of the categories as, say, "undefined" and "primitive." As part of
his
attempt to "extend the philosophic Idea" he combines Fichte's deduction of
the
categories with some of Kant's critical philosophy. Since I have
knowledge of
the facts here, I concede Hegel's criticism, although I am uncertain of
his
larger plan since it begins with an outright declaration of metaphysical
intent. More to read, I guess.



-------------------------------------

Kant locates the order of nature in reason. Reason does for the
understanding what understanding does for the manifold of intuition -
"the
understanding is an object for reason, just as sensibility is for the
understanding." Reason's regulative capacity renders the unconditioned
totality of objects systematic. There are three ideas of reason: self,
world
and God. God is the Ideal of Reason, whose concept

aims . . . at complete determination in accordance with a priori rules.
Accordingly it thinks for itself an object which it regards as being
completely determinable in accordance with princi ples,

that is, in accordance with universal a priori cognition. This ideal of
the
ens realissimum, of the universal concept of a reality in general, is
then
thought of as containing the being of all beings. But as an idea of
reason,
the ens realissimum is never met with in appearances. The Ideal of
Reason
does not satisfy the transcendental conditions and so cannot be
considered
objectively real. As such, Kant holds that the existence of God cannot
be
proved by speculative reason.

Kant argues that there are three, and only three, possible ways in which
speculative reason can argue for the existence of God, characterized as
the
Ideal of Reason. But all fail to prove God's existence. Reason,
according to
Kant's analysis, can attempt to prove God's existence by either an
empirical
or a transcendental path, both of which involve going beyond the scope
of
reason to the transcendental concept. Consequently, Kant first discusses
the
transcendental proof of God's existence, arguing that the other proofs
ultimately depend on it. The ontological argument moves from idea to
existence, arguing that the essence of a supreme and perfect being
involves
existence. Kant argues that this type of proof fails to recognize that
existence is not a predicate, and that to call it so is to claim that
there
is a quality in the world corresponding to it.

...In his two earlier works, Kant asks the question 'How is the realm of
possibility possible?', whereas in the Critique the question of
possibility
has become an epistemological problem rather than an ontological one.
The
problem is now seen in terms of a structure of conditions related to the
possibility of cognition, not as a problem requiring the proof of a
single
actual ground. Kant's argument that existence is not a predicate is
given
new force by his transcendental analysis, which shows that God's
existence
is not an issue in the realm of reason. If the transcendental analysis
is
accepted, and we therefore see that all existential propositions are
synthetic, we cannot, without contradiction, maintain that existence is
a
predicate.

...Kant's rejection of all possible proofs of God's existence and his
moving
God out of the sphere of ontology, rules out the traditional ground of a
systematic universe. He therefore must provide some other explanation of
how
we perceive the world as systematic and purposive.26 Some principle of
systematicity is necessary to account for the interconnectedness or
coherence we perceive in nature. Kant explains systematicity in terms of
epistemology. For Kant, systematicity is the creative organization of
our
cognition of nature in accordance with certain regulative principles.
These
principles are the ideas of reason. Reason prescribes a logical
principle
that assists

the understanding by means of ideas, in those cases in which the
understanding cannot by itself establish rules, and at the same time ...
give[s] to the numerous and diverse rules of the understanding unity or
system under a single principle.

At the level of the understanding there is no system. An idea, as a
regulative principle, supplies a rule for systematization. Kant
distinguishes this from the 'Ideal of Reason', which supplies the notion
of
an 'archetype' or individual ground for systematization.28 This too must
be
seen as only regulative, as it has no content, that is, 'God' does not
correspond to the concept of God. It is the regulative ideal of nature
that
makes possible the unity of nature itself. The Ideal of nature, as
regulative, has a purely methodological status.

Kant moves from systematicity to purposiveness. He argues that saying
that
all things are part of a system is tantamount to saying that all things
have
a purpose within that system. To see things as systematic, for Kant, is
to
see them as in "seemingly purposive arrangements." A move cannot be made
from purposive order to God, because God has no matter of intuition,
that
is, God is not 'given' to sensibility and so does not conform to the
transcendental conditions. But there is an analogical correspondence
between
systematicity and God. They are logically equivalent and "it must be a
matter of complete indifference to us, when we say we perceive . . .
unity,
whether we say that God in his wisdom has willed it to be so, or that
nature
has wisely arranged it thus." From a philosophical point of view, God as
creator corresponds to system. The principle of God is not needed to
explain
nature. All that is needed is the principle of systematicity. Analogy
between teleology and theology gives meaning or content to our idea of
God.
But to designate what the relationship is between God and the world in
itself is completely outside the conditions of possible experience.

In the Critique, it no longer makes sense to ask whether natural laws
form a
systematic whole. The ideal of reason is simply the principle of
systematic
unity. This unity has no ontological significance, since it does not
exist
empirically. Rather it is "a mere fiction," or "a mere illusion," with
"no
object that can be met in any experience." When we act according to the
principle of systematicity, we presuppose that nature is a completed
system.
Despite this status, Kant claims that we need the idea of systematic
unity,
that we "must" assume it. This is, in Kant's eyes, the strongest
possible
argument for God - not for the existence of God in the constitutive or
formal sense, as no such proof is possible, but for the meaningfulness
of
the idea of God in the cognitive sphere.

IMMORTALIST:
[Therefore it takes time to systematize cognitively?]


The time-determination of apperception establishes a certain connectivity
of
concepts. Specifically, there is a manifold of intuition giving material
sensation under the pure a priori forms of sensibility, space and time.
This
synthesis of apprehension accounts for a succession of connected
representations
whose coherent individuating principle is governed by the phrase, "in so
far as
it is contained in a single moment."

From this, you get the notion of "predictive coherence" [from Seligman's
paper]. In Kant's words,

"Every intuition contains in itself a manifold which
can be represented as a manifold only in so far as
the mind distinguishes the time in the sequence of
one impression upon another;"

So the very notion of object (as in "nature is the complex of all the
objects of
experience") depends on the time-determination (as in "we do not know
nature but
as the totality of appearances, i.e., of representations in us, and hence
we can
only derive the laws of its connection from the principles of its
connection in
us, that is, from the conditions of their necessary union in
consciousness,
which constitutes the possibility of experience.")

Kant distinguishes the manifold of intuition from the manifold consequent
to the
synthesis of apprehension (the time-determination) by saying that while
both are
manifolds, the first has no representation as a manifold contained in a
single
representation.

Just for kicks, think about the contrast between the well-described
topology of
general relativity under the spacetime metric and the probablistic/fuzzy
specification of topologies constituting the quantum foam preceding the
Plank
time.

Given all of that, the opening passage discussing schematism begins with:

"In all subsumptions of an object under a concept
the representation of the object must be *homogeneous*
with the concept; in other words, the concept must
contain something which is represented in the object
that is to be subsumed under it. This in fact is what is
meant by the expression 'an object contained under a
concept.' Thus, the empirical concept of a plate is
homogeneous with the pure geometrical concept of
a circle. The roundness which is thought in the latter
can be intuited in the former."

The key word here is "homogeneous" because this is the sense in which an
object
"coheres" across moments. In Seligman's paper, you get a "perspectival
domain"
and a sequence of "situations." The "perspective shifts" associated with
the
sequence of "situations" are associated with the mathematical relation of
inclusion (the essential issue is "one-to-one" and the concept of
inclusion is
the category-theoretic [toposes specifically] analogue to model-theoretic
concept of formal identity). Seligman uses this to define an "object"
relative
to a sequence of "subobjects."

Returning to Kant, he gives an example:

"When for instance, by apprehension of the manifold
of a house I make the empirical intuition of it into a
perception, the necessary unity of space and of outer
sensible intuition in general lies at the basis of my
apprehension, and I draw as it were the outline of
the house in conformity with this synthetic unity of
the manifold in space. But if I abstract from the form
of space, this same synthetic unity has its seat in the
understanding, and is the category of the synthesis of
the homogeneous in an intuition in general, that is,
the cat