"Daniel T." <postmaster@eathlink.net> wrote:

You are stating as fact how you think I feel. You are wrong. When you
said "You are the same person now as when you were born" you were wrong.
My opinion on everything is different now than it was 30 years ago, even
my eye color has changed.

But the observer (the I-feeling) is the same. Do you HAVE eyes or ARE
you your eyes? Who is looking out of your eyes?

It isn't depressing at all, it's life. The fact that you can't seem to
accept that life is change, that people change, grow old and die, is why
you will continue to be caught in the cycle. Always grasping for that
which simply doesn't exist... a constant.

Who is grasping? Any thoughtful person can understand that his
consciousness is constant.

There is no Atman. Get over it. The sooner you get through the seven
stages a grief and get to acceptance, the happier the rest of your life
will be.

How old are you? 12? Get back to me when you hit the 40s.

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 17:41:40 GMT, "Dan Skunk" <_@rogers.com> wrote:

At least us atheists live in the real word

Which real world is that? Would that be the world where the only thing
you have to look forward to is to get sick, old and die?

And look forward to friendship and love and fun...

and do not concoct elaborate
fantasies in to satisfy our desires.

You mean like Disney World, computergames and Hollywood?

Aye, but you leave those worlds and return to the real world when you're

You will have problems in life, the same as anyone else, no matter what
you
believe. Your great Krisha will not feed you when you are hungry or
clothe
you when you are cold.

Of course He will. In fact Krishna feeds all living entities, demons
and devotees alike.

I rather doubt you wake up every morning to a nice hot breakfast prepared

We shall encounter defeat, yes. But we shall encounter victory as well.

What victory might you be speaking of?

One day you might loose your job. Another day you might find another one.

This is life. Were one to never experience defeat, victory would have no
meaning.

There is no victory in a world where you move steadily towards death.
Of course, you could count the brief flashes of sensegratification in
between the suffering and the boredom as victory, but I would never
settle just for that.

Human nature to always want more, I guess.

Freeing oneself from all the miseries of life only deprives oneself of
experiencing any of life's pleasures. It is only by emersing oneself
completely in life that one can fully experience all the pleasures it has
to
offer.

Sure, you have to take the good with the bad in life. But Krishna
assures us that we don't belong here in the material world, and that
there is a way out for those who want it.

It is interesting that you have become frustrated at your inability to
convince others of your point of view and are resorting to calling
everyone
who doesn't agree with you stupid.

I don't call anyone who doesn't agree with me stupid. I call stupid
people stupid. See the difference?

Daniel T. disagreed with your proposition that the "I-feeling" was the same

With all the discussion about
transcending the material world and finding eternal bliss, you do not
appear
very transcendant nor blissful. :P

As if you would have a clue :)

Look... Now you're calling me stupid. How do you know I don't understand

You are arguing from premesis which they don't accept. Your first task
is
to prove the existence of your god. Only after that, can you begin to
have
a meaningfull discussion about him.

All right. What will you accept as proof of God?

Something obvious and irrefutable that can only be explained by God would be

We are still having an interesting discussion. Both of us learning more
about ourselves through examining our own ideas, but don't get too upset
if
everyone doesn't automatically come to believe your way of thinking.

I am not upset.

Ok, good.

"Jahnu" <jahnu@india.com> wrote in message
news:0oeiuvonmhsnpas8cm5nhjdnuscd9c9k7b@4ax.com...
On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 17:41:40 GMT, "Dan Skunk" <_@rogers.com> wrote:

At least us atheists live in the real word

Which real world is that? Would that be the world where the only thing
you have to look forward to is to get sick, old and die?

And look forward to friendship and love and fun...

Just means looking at the world around us as it is without using our minds
to breath any extra meaning into it.

and do not concoct elaborate
fantasies in to satisfy our desires.

You mean like Disney World, computergames and Hollywood?

Aye, but you leave those worlds and return to the real world when you're
done.

Are you trying to say your religion is like a visit to Disney world
or playing a computer game?

Of course He will. In fact Krishna feeds all living entities, demons
and devotees alike.

I rather doubt you wake up every morning to a nice hot breakfast prepared
for you by Krishna.

I think you go out and buy the food yourself, then take it home and cook it
yourself.

One day you might loose your job. Another day you might find another one.
There's good and bad in life. That's what makes it so interesting.

This is life. Were one to never experience defeat, victory would have no
meaning.

There is no victory in a world where you move steadily towards death.
Of course, you could count the brief flashes of sensegratification in
between the suffering and the boredom as victory, but I would never
settle just for that.

Human nature to always want more, I guess.

I think you would be wise to learn to enjoy what you have, though. Don't
let life pass you by while you sit there contemplating God.

I don't call anyone who doesn't agree with me stupid. I call stupid
people stupid. See the difference?

Daniel T. disagreed with your proposition that the "I-feeling" was the same
throughout one's life. You responded, "Feel free to remain a stupid atheist
who can't even distinguish between the body and the self..."

You are calling someone who disagrees with you stupid rather than trying to
explain your idea. "I'm merely stating an irrefutable fact;" if it's so
irrefutable, how is it that somone has refuted it and how is it that you are
unable to offer any defence against that refute?

All right. What will you accept as proof of God?

Something obvious and irrefutable that can only be explained by God would be
reasonable.

Jahnu <jahnu@india.com> wrote:

But the observer (the I-feeling) is the same. Do you HAVE eyes or ARE
you your eyes? Who is looking out of your eyes?

If you can find an "I", please point it out for me because when I look
within myself, I don't see or feel it.

Who is grasping? Any thoughtful person can understand that his
consciousness is constant.

Consciousness exists in an ever changing form, just like everything
else.

Nothing is constant. There is no Atman.

Maybe I can help.

I think Jahnu is talking about that sense of awareness of one's self as
being constant--not one's identity. That simple sense of one's self is
constant. What ever ideas and thoughts you might have, whatever you might
learn through life, however you identity evolves, there's still a basic
sense of self--an awareness of one's own existence--which remains pretty
much the same.

The only thing you have to look forward to, is that friendship, love
and fun will fade out and leave you lamenting. It would be a
depressing world view if you are an atheist or buddhist and think
there is nothing else, but as Krishna's bhakta (devotee) you are
guaranteed oceans of unending bliss by serving Him. Krishna
consciousness is the positive solution to the certified negative basis
of the material world.

Still, it's not all negative. Unending bliss sounds nice, but you're not

Just means looking at the world around us as it is without using our
minds
to breath any extra meaning into it.

How will you escape your metal conditioning?

So the point is still that even atheist concoct elaborate fantasies to
satisfy their desires. Religious people are not alone in that.

Yes, I know, but everyone knows those things are fantasies. Religious

Are you trying to say your religion is like a visit to Disney world
or playing a computer game? :P

Yes, the difference being that you never have to come back again to
your so called 'real world,' where repeated birth and death take
place.

Umm...

I am talking about the raw ingredients, silly. Nature provides us with
everyone's sustenance, and nature is provided by Krishna.

Ah. That makes more sense then.

I think you go out and buy the food yourself, then take it home and cook
it
yourself.

It's going to be interesting to see what'll happen the day the
supermarkets in the big cities don't deliver anymore. I have heard
that many school children in the US think that milk is something that
comes out of a tetra-pack. Is that true?

I don't know if it's true, but it sounds reasonable. They're so

Let me tell you, nobody, as in NOBODY (no matter how much one may try
to assure you of the opposite) is interested in the bad in life.
Everyone wants to avoid the bad at all costs and only have the good.
The problem is that the materialists and atheists don't know how to
avoid the bad and experience the good. They are blind victims of their
own karma (the results of their actions). Your karma, whether it's
good or bad, does not go away by sticking your head in the sand and
pretending it's not there.

No one want's the bad life, but the fact that the bad things happen is what

Human nature to always want more, I guess.

That's right. That's because we are eternal spirit souls full of
knowledge and bliss, so we always gravitate towards those qualities.

I think you would be wise to learn to enjoy what you have, though. Don't
let life pass you by while you sit there contemplating God.

Hey, I was 25 before I joined the Hare Krishna movement. I had already
tried everything there is to try to find satisfaction. Now I am nearly
50, so I think I know how to tell the difference between the before
and after experience of contemplating Krishna.

Fair enough. It is good that you have found a means to finding

That's right. If you can't see that it is the same 'I' (the same self)
that stays during all the transformations of the body, it means you
are stupid or deliberately being obnoxious. Do you have a different
'I' today than you did a week ago? Is it the same 'I' or are you all
of a sudden a different 'I' (ESSENTIALLY) because time passed and your
body and mind changed?

Doesn't necessarily mean you're stupid. Perhaps the description of the idea

You are calling someone who disagrees with you stupid rather than trying
to
explain your idea. "I'm merely stating an irrefutable fact;" if it's so
irrefutable, how is it that somone has refuted it and how is it that you
are
unable to offer any defence against that refute?

I have given an argument. I have argued that it is the same self that
travels from boyhood to youth to old age, and that this can be
directly perceived by anyone. Anyone can perceive it's the same
I-feeling I have now as I had a week ago or 10 years ago. You don't
refute that by saying that it is not so, or by merely maintaining that
the basic 'I-feeling' changes along with the bodily and mental
changes.

If that was a fact how can you recall something? If you have become a
different person now than you were a week or a year ago how can you
recall things from then? If you are a different person now than in the
past how can you recall things from the past? You can only do that if
there is something continuous or constant being maintained throughout
all the experiences of life. It is simple logic and reason, and if you
can't understand that, means you are less intelligent. I don't say
this to spite or in a condescending way. Not everyone has the same
intelligence. Especially modern people are more prone to judge things
with their emotions than with reasoning.

Trying a different way of explaining it is good.

All right. What will you accept as proof of God?

Something obvious and irrefutable that can only be explained by God would
be
reasonable.

Like what? You can't even prove to me that you are the person you
claim to be. You can't prove to me what you think. What do you suggest
as proof of God?

From my experience, there is no proof of God (unfortunately). Many

Still, it's not all negative.

Unending bliss sounds nice, but you're not really living if you aren't being challenged.

How will you escape your metal conditioning?

What mental conditioning? I would think that if you are looking at things
without judging them, you _have_ escaped your mental conditioning.

Yes, I know, but everyone knows those things are fantasies. Religious
people think their fantasies are real.

Yes, the difference being that you never have to come back again to
your so called 'real world,' where repeated birth and death take
place.

Umm...

You sound like you're saying you _know_ Krisha is not real but are believing
it anyway. I assume that's not what you mean.

No one want's the bad life, but the fact that the bad things happen is what
gives good things their meaning.

I need to follow something I know is true. If I can see it. If I can't
know it's real, it's not going to provide that satisfaction for me. I don't
see anything more real in Hare Krisha than in "the Church."

I just look at the world around me and try to understand it the best I can.

Doesn't necessarily mean you're stupid. Perhaps the description of the idea
was just not adequate for understanding to take place. When teaching
someone something, you must work from what they already know and this is
different for each person. It might take more time for one person to get it
than another, but that does not mean they're stupid.

Stupid would be not having the ability to understand the thing at all.

Just dismissing someone as stupid though, is unproductive.

From my experience, there is no proof of God (unfortunately).

Many attempts, but no successes.

If there was a proof, everyone would believe him.

Some deep analysis of why you believe in God would provide and interesting
and enlightening conversation. You may convince others to agree with you.
I doubt it would constitute "proof" though.

If we had this conversation, I think me and you would find we are looking at
the same thing, but we are just understanding it differently. We all try to
understand things based on our past experience and knowledge.

That's right. That's why I am trying to convey my experience and

On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 15:55:42 GMT, "Dan Skunk" <_@rogers.com> wrote:

Still, it's not all negative.

Within the material realm there is the duality of good and bad, but
outside of that duality there is the transcendental reality of Krishna
which is beyond good and bad.

Compared to that eternal reality the
material dualistic reality is all bad. No matter how good it gets in
the material world, it will end, and thus leave you lamenting, The
bottom line of this place is birth, death, old age and disease.
Therefore the Vedas suggest that the human form of life is meant to
get us out of here.

Just because it ends doesn't mean nothing good could happen before it ended.

Unending bliss sounds nice, but you're not really living if you aren't
being challenged.

Well, since I am here it must mean I like to be challenged :)

That's good.

How will you escape your metal conditioning?

What mental conditioning? I would think that if you are looking at
things
without judging them, you _have_ escaped your mental conditioning.

The mental conditioning of your upbringing and training. The mental
conditioning of thinking that you are your body and mind and that
happiness is to be found in this world. The mental baggage you carry
from millions and billions of previous lives. The mental conditioning
that makes you who you are with your distinct likes and dislikes. The
mental conditioning that keeps you from seeing yourself as an eternal
spiritual soul, part and parcel of the Supreme. There is so much
conditioning most of which we are not even aware.

Everything that has happened to me in the past has shaped who I am today,

Yes, I know, but everyone knows those things are fantasies. Religious
people think their fantasies are real. :P

Who is to judge what is real or not? I know for a fact that Krishna is
God. To you it's a fantasy to me it's real.

Yes, the difference being that you never have to come back again to
your so called 'real world,' where repeated birth and death take
place.

Umm...

You sound like you're saying you _know_ Krisha is not real but are
believing
it anyway. I assume that's not what you mean.

Right, that's not what I mean. Once Krishna has manifested Himself to
you, you don't have to doubt anymore. It is then you start your
journey back home to Godhead. It may take many lives but eventually
you will reach the goal. Once you have reached that place you will
never again return to the material world.

Ok.

No one want's the bad life, but the fact that the bad things happen is
what
gives good things their meaning.

This is true. That's the duality of the material world. You can't
define good without bad. That means good is dependent on bad for it's
existence and vice versa. The transcendental realm is beyond that. It
is absolutely good and in that realm, which you BTW can experience
right here and now by chanting the Hare Krishna mantra, the happiness
experienced is not dependent on suffering. Most of what we call
happiness in the material world is actually nothing but a brief break
in the fundamental suffering of the material world.

Ah, but that happiness you experience comes from escaping the material

Take sex e.g. It is considered the highest pleasure in life, but it is
really nothing but an attempt to escape the suffering of being without
sex. Or eating, another pleasurable activity. We eat a nice meal and
we call it happiness, but it is just an escape from hunger. Maybe we
have no experience of going hungry for any length of time, but those
who have experienced starvation know it is a real suffering. In this
way, if you examine what we do for pleasure, you'll find that it is
all an attempt to escape the inevitable boredom and misery of the
material world. But unless you realize that the material world means
suffering you will not want to get out of here. You will always be
looking towards that time in the future where your dreams will come
true, but they never will. You will always and without exception end
up lamenting, if not sooner then later.

Interesting point. It is true that pleasure comes from escaping misery, but

At the same time, it should be understood that the soul is eternally
blissful and full of knowledge. It is natural that it seeks bliss, as
this is its nature. So we inherently seek the good in this realm as an
avenue to satisfy the soul and allow it the expression it wants in a
sphere of absolute bliss.

Hmm... Yes. The soul is natural curious and seek knowledge. Finding

I need to follow something I know is true. If I can see it. If I can't
know it's real, it's not going to provide that satisfaction for me. I
don't
see anything more real in Hare Krisha than in "the Church."

The difference is that in the Church there is no philosophy,
explanation, or process to genuinely connect you with the Supreme. In
Krishna consciousness you get these things.

I just look at the world around me and try to understand it the best I
can.

That is your prerogative. But should it prove to be too frustrating an
exercise in the long run, all you have to do is call on Krishna.

Doesn't necessarily mean you're stupid. Perhaps the description of the
idea
was just not adequate for understanding to take place. When teaching
someone something, you must work from what they already know and this is
different for each person. It might take more time for one person to get
it
than another, but that does not mean they're stupid.

Maybe stupid is the wrong word with its connotation of being useless
and of less value. That's not what I was trying to say. By stupid I
simply meant less intelligent.

Stupid would be not having the ability to understand the thing at all.

Well, then it cannot be ruled out, can it? :)

Just dismissing someone as stupid though, is unproductive.

I wasn't being personal. I was attacking the mentality, not the
person.

From my experience, there is no proof of God (unfortunately).

That's from your experience. From my experience there is proof of God.

Many attempts, but no successes.

But you don't know that.

As of yet, I have seen no proof of God. I do not say with absolute

If there was a proof, everyone would believe him.

How could they, if the proof is an internal subjective one? You have
to understand that no one is an atheist out of lack of proof of God;
people are atheists because they WANT to be atheists. They take this
whole world as proof that there is no God. From a theist's point of
view nature itself is proof of God. To believe or not believe in God
is a choice, If someone chooses not to believe in God they'd have to
ask themselves, why not? There is simply nothing in observable
existence that suggests there is no God. Every in nature points to
design and design points to intelligence - the supreme intelligence of
God.

Some deep analysis of why you believe in God would provide and
interesting
and enlightening conversation. You may convince others to agree with
you.
I doubt it would constitute "proof" though.

I couldn't care less if I can prove it. It's not up to me to prove
anything. You, also, cannot prove your belief there is no God. So no
one can prove it, that doesn't mean there's no God. The design in a
single cell - the interactions of it's interdependent components -
could not be the result of a step by step unconscious, mechanical
process. That's like saying the engine in a Mercedes developed and
created itself. It doesn't make sense. A cell, just like a car engine,
works only as a whole. It is meaningless to say that it happened step
by step. All the parts of a cell must be there and interact
simultaneously for the cell to perform it's function.

If we had this conversation, I think me and you would find we are looking
at
the same thing, but we are just understanding it differently. We all try
to
understand things based on our past experience and knowledge.

That's right. That's why I am trying to convey my experience and
knowledge of Krishna as it descends in the disciplic succession. It's
actually not something that needs to be left to believe. Krishna
consciousness can directly be experienced by the inquisitive and
submissive soul. It is something it is possible to know about.

"Jahnu" <jahnu@india.com> wrote in message

Within the material realm there is the duality of good and bad, but
outside of that duality there is the transcendental reality of Krishna
which is beyond good and bad.

There. That's starting to get somewhere.

It is beyond good and bad. Good and bad have no meaning there.

Good *and* evil exist only in the material world. Only in the human/animal
world. Outside of that, they both cease to exist.

Just because it ends doesn't mean nothing good could happen before it ended.
If you life a good life, experience many things, help lots of people and
experience lots of love and friendship, you shouldn't be left lamenting too
much when the end comes.

Sure, more would be nice, but that that doesn't mean it can't be good in the
mean time. Being temporary just means you have to be carful not to waste
it.

Everything that has happened to me in the past has shaped who I am today,
just as it has to you. I am able to step outside of myself and see that. I
can see the difference between the soul and the body, but I also see how
they are connected to each other. The soul is not trapped in the body like
a prisoner longing to escape. The soul depends on the body to give it life
and a purpose, and the body depends on the soul to keep it alive. It's a
symbiotic relationship. Without the body, the soul would loose it's
purpose.

Who is to judge what is real or not? I know for a fact that Krishna is
God. To you it's a fantasy to me it's real.

A fantasy will be real to one who is trapped within it.

We are all meant to judge what is real or not. That is why we have our 5
senses. They allow us to probe reality.

I have explored the essence of existence itself. A reality beyond Krishna.

If Krishna exists, he should be somewhere between here and there, but I have
not seen him. I see the universe connected directly to ultimate reality
with no intermediary.

Ah, but that happiness you experience comes from escaping the material
world. It is the act of escaping the evils of the world that makes you feel
happiness. To stay permanently in this place though, there would be no
happiness. You would not be escaping, you would already be there. Void of
experiencing that transition from the material to the eternal, there is
nothing to cause happiness.

Interesting point. It is true that pleasure comes from escaping misery, but
that is what makes it pleasurable. Without misery, or at least the threat
of misery, there is no pleasure.

Look at people who spend their lives pursuing wealth. While they are
getting it, it is pleasurable, but once they become wealthy beyond their
desires, money no longer makes them happy. If accumulating wealth was the
only thing that gave their life meaning, they're left with no meaning after
they have aquired it.

It is that transition from one state to another that causes emotion.
Staying in one state causes no emotion.

Hmm... Yes. The soul is natural curious and seek knowledge. Finding
knowledge is pleasurable to it.

I have seen beyond Krishna, but have not seen Krishna himself. Such is my
understanding of the world, that I don't see Krishna having much to offer.

It is possible that a person does not have the intelligence to understand
something, but I think it unlikely. I think, being the same species, the
great majority of us have about the same intelligence.

Only problem is
whether someone has developed their potential or not. If they have not,
then you must first cause them to awaken their potential before you can get
them to understand what you are saying. A long and frustrating process,
almost impossible if the person is unwilling to learn.

As of yet, I have seen no proof of God. I do not say with absolute
certainty that it is not a possibility, but from my experience and
understanding, that possibility is virtually nil.

A proof of God, for me, would need to satisfy far more criteria for me than
for many other people since I have more of an understanding of reality than
many.

And I would say there is absolutely nothing in nature that points to God.

Atheism is not just some random choice of yes or not. It is a believe based
on a carful examination of the facts (such as yours).

To and atheist,
whether one wants to be and atheist or not is irrelevant. The only thing
that is relevant is what one can see and what conclusion one can draw from
observation.

Most likely, our conclusions differ because our knowledge and understanding
differ. I can see how nature life can come into being without God; Got is
therefore not necessary to me.

That lack of proof should, though, not lead one in either direction, either
believing or not believing.

All the parts of a cell *could* possibly come together randomly--it's just
DNA with a membrane. Given the infinite number ways things can come
together, it's just a likely for life to come together as anything else.

It is as absurd to say a Mercedes created itself as to say life created
itself. Self creation is impossible.

We could say that a Mercedes developed through a step by step mechanical
process though. If life developed through the simple mechanics of the
universe and life created a Mercedes, then ultimately a Mercedes came from
simple a simple mechanical process. See how things can build in complexity?
One thing developing into another.

Perhaps one day, humans will be wiped out leaving only machines, and these
machines will develope consciousness and wonder where they came from and
conclude that they must have been created through intelligent design, and
call this designer God.

Yes. It's interesting. I think we are probably looking at the same thing.
I might be seeing the Krishna consciousness, but not recognizing it as
Krishna. You might be seeing my ultimate reality and calling it Krishna.

Yes, duality cease to exist, but still the eternal reality of absolute
goodness exists, and the individual soul exists there eternally in
knowledge and bliss. Instead of experiencing happiness that is
constantly being interrupted by misery, in that eternal realm you
experience unending knowledge and bliss.

Hmm...

That may be so, but being a good person doesn't solve life's inherent
problems of birth, death, old age, and disease. You need
transcendental knowledge for that.

If you think that this life is your only shot in existence to
experience pleasure and fulfill your dreams, you are going to be
seriously desperate, especially if you have been given a raw deal by
destiny. If you think that you are eternal and that this life is just
one out of many, and that you will suffer or enjoy according to your
activities, you won't be so desperate to enjoy the body ad mind. You
will begin to see that there is something beyond that and will start
actively pursuing it. And when you discover that Krishna consciousness
actually works, that it actually connects you with Krishna and puts
you in a state of a higher taste, then your joy knows no bounds.

Then you theorize that there is no other purpose to life than for the
soul to satisfy the body and mind, and that it is possible for the
soul to find satisfaction in material life. But that's precisely the
root cause of all our dissatisfaction in life. We think we can be
satisfied by trying to gratify the mind and the body, but since the
soul is constant it cannot find satisfaction in the temporary
atmosphere of the material world. The soul yearns for satisfaction,
everyone can agree to that, so why are we never satisfied no matter
how much sense gratification we get?

We all seek satisfaction and gratification, but we cannot find it in
the material world. We can find more if we are good and less if we are
bad, that's a fact, but ultimate satisfaction is not to be found in
this world. People due to bodily identification think it is possible,
but it is not. That's the illusion of Maya. She presents herself to
you in a very alluring form, to get you to chase after her, then when
you catch her and think you are going to enjoy her, you see that she
is birth, death, old age and disease. What nobody understands, not
even the different religions, is that the material world is a
correctional facility for the rebellious souls who wanted to imitate
Krishna's position as the Supreme controller and enjoyer.

I have explored the essence of existence itself. A reality beyond
Krishna.

And then you woke up There is no reality beyond Krishna, for
Krishna is everything. He is inside of everything and outside of
everything. You have told me that the soul is dependent of the body to
exist and that the goal of life is to connect the senses with the
sense objects. That is not the vision of someone who has explored the
essence of existence itself. If you have explored the essence of
existence you would have seen Krishna, because He is the essence of
existence itself.

I see the essence of existence, but I do not call it Krishna. This essence

In your dreams, maybe. It is clear that Krishna exists and can give
His devotees transcendental vision. If you haven't met Him it's
because you haven't looked for Him. Krishna only manifests Himself to
His devotee. So to see Him you would have to become His devotee first.
So you would not expect to see him.

Krishna says:

"One can understand Me as I am, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead,
only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of
Me by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God." (Bg 18.55)

That kinda of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Only by believing will you come

Maybe. But there is a difference between the constant transitions from
the creation, maintenance and destruction of the body and mind to the
eternally expanding emotion of trying to understand Krishna.

Eternally expanding would be pleasurable.

We have the same potential, yes, but we are not trained to use the
intelligence in the same way. We each operate within our own sets of
paradigms. If you can believe there is no God and that the world just
happened by chance, that, in and of itself, to me at least, is proof,
that the intelligence is not being utilized properly.

I could say the same about you and believing there is a God.

This is very true. alt.philosophy is probably not the best preaching
field in the world. But I figure that at least the Vedic version
should be presented and available on usenet, since to my mind it is
the greatest philosophy in the world. And more than that, it has
brought a unique dimension into my life, I want to share with
everyone. Maybe my problem is that more than sharing it with everyone
I want to convince them As you so rightly pointed out, no one can
be convinced of anything if they don't want to be convinced.

What would satisfy you as proof for God?

Oh yes, everything in nature points to intelligent design and
intelligent design points to God.

hehe. If we want to change our understanding of "intelligent" and "God"

Atheism is not just some random choice of yes or not. It is a believe
based
on a carful examination of the facts (such as yours).

That is not true. There are no facts that points to atheism. If you
can name a few, please.

Simply not finding any evidence for God is enough for one not to believe in

So what conclusion do you draw from the fact, that the smallest
component of biological life, the single cell, is built in such a way
that it can only function as an entire unit. All of the cell's parts
only give meaning when they work together. There is a scientific word
for it but I can't think of it. It is something like a car engine. The
cylinders have no meaning without the pistons, the pistons have no
meaning without the fuel injection, the fuel injection has no meaning
without the fuel etc. The same way a car engine will only work as an
entire unit, a cell will only work as a whole. That points to
intelligent design. It certainly doesn't point to a step by step
unconscious development as the evolutionists would like us to believe.

Irreducable complexity.

That's quite ok. Krishna won't come before you are ready, anyway. Just
remember at that most crucial point in your life when you will have to
leave your body, that Krishna is there and call out for Him.

Yes... I would like to have a good talk with him.

It only happened because of the intelligent directions of living
entities.

Or natural physical processes.

Perhaps one day, humans will be wiped out leaving only machines, and
these
machines will develope consciousness and wonder where they came from and
conclude that they must have been created through intelligent design, and
call this designer God. :)

It's an amusing idea, but it will never happen, for machines don't
possess souls. I know it's a favorite idea of many science fiction
authors, but so far it only happened in Hollywood :)

So far...

Yes. It's interesting. I think we are probably looking at the same
thing.
I might be seeing the Krishna consciousness, but not recognizing it as
Krishna. You might be seeing my ultimate reality and calling it Krishna.

I like that concept. I hope this finds you well and happy and
prosperous.

Merry Christmas, or should I say merry Krishna

Yes, duality cease to exist, but still the eternal reality of absolute
goodness exists, and the individual soul exists there eternally in
knowledge and bliss. Instead of experiencing happiness that is
constantly being interrupted by misery, in that eternal realm you
experience unending knowledge and bliss.

Hmm...

You could call it good, I suppose, but it is not the type of good we are
familar with.

Bliss might be accurate in the sense of mindlessness.

With perfect knowledge, the pursuit of knowledge becomes meaningless.

One would just sit there, in an unchanging state of perfection for all
eternity.

One would not really be "alive" though. Would be like on instant in your
life, frozen for eternity.

That may be so, but being a good person doesn't solve life's inherent
problems of birth, death, old age, and disease. You need
transcendental knowledge for that.

Even transcendental knowledge does not allow you to escape death. You will
still grow old and die. You may not anguish and lament over the idea; you
may be a peace with yourself and the world, but it will still happen.

That's and interesting idea. A "correctional facility."

I think you may be condeming youself to a permanent inability to enjoy the
material world.

Perhaps just a sorrowfull and miserable as being obsessed
with it.

The idea is to find balance between the spiritual and material. A
harmonious middle ground where both live in harmony and support each other,
rather than fight with each other.

I see the essence of existence, but I do not call it Krishna. This essence
is not a living thing. Life is a process that takes place in time. This
"existence" is constant and unchanging and is therefore not alive.

Time exists within this realm as a constant. Our perception of the passage
of time is due to our being trapped within it. An illusion, so to speak.
In reality, our lives are like lines carved in stone; permanent and
unchanging. We only see change, because we are trapped withing this line.
Our consciousness appears to move through time, only because it changes it
is different at different points in time....

If that makes any sense.

Difficult to describe things for which no words exist.

Krishna says:

"One can understand Me as I am, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead,
only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of
Me by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God." (Bg 18.55)

That kinda of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Only by believing will you come
to believe. Such a belief has no foundation in reality. You should be
looking at reality and finding truth. Not assuming a "truth" and then
looking for it in reality.

Maybe. But there is a difference between the constant transitions from
the creation, maintenance and destruction of the body and mind to the
eternally expanding emotion of trying to understand Krishna.

Eternally expanding would be pleasurable.

We have the same potential, yes, but we are not trained to use the
intelligence in the same way. We each operate within our own sets of
paradigms. If you can believe there is no God and that the world just
happened by chance, that, in and of itself, to me at least, is proof,
that the intelligence is not being utilized properly.

I could say the same about you and believing there is a God.

I will likely never be convinced of it. But it has been an enlightening
conversation nevertheless. Through examining these ideas I am learning more
about myself and comming to understand the world better and developing my
ability to describe these ideas.

I hope you are also learning from it.

What would satisfy you as proof for God?

It would just have to match up with everything I already know, evolution,
science, mathematics, existence. If one idea contradicts another, then one
idea is wrong.

Simply not finding any evidence for God is enough for one not to believe in
Him.

Irreducable complexity.

I don't see a cell as being unable to develop naturally. Beyond our
understanding, perhaps, but that doesn't mean something isn't real.

It's an amusing idea, but it will never happen, for machines don't
possess souls. I know it's a favorite idea of many science fiction
authors, but so far it only happened in Hollywood :)

So far...

As the sun rises again after it's decent into darkness, we celebrate the
rebirth of Krishna... Or maybe you could find a better reason to celebrate
Krishna on the solstice.

Merry Christmas.