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| Mike R... |
 Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:11 pm |
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Listeros,
A researcher wrote to me after I posted the Paisley Cave tool story
saying that artifacts found at the Tlapacoya site in Mexico go back to
24,000 years ago. He said the archaeology at the site verifying the
dates was sound.
I tried to find specific reports that would cast doubt on this but
those are not easily called up. Do any of you know about these
artifacts and if the dating of the artifacts was faulty and came under
solid criticism?
Some have pointed out that US archaeologists ignore finds of this
nature south of the Rio Grande.
Mike Ruggeri |
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| Tom McDonald... |
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:23 am |
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On Nov 5, 11:11 pm, Mike R <michaelrugg... at (no spam) mac.com> wrote:
[quote]Listeros,
A researcher wrote to me after I posted the Paisley Cave tool story
saying that artifacts found at the Tlapacoya site in Mexico go back to
24,000 years ago. He said the archaeology at the site verifying the
dates was sound.
I tried to find specific reports that would cast doubt on this but
those are not easily called up. Do any of you know about these
artifacts and if the dating of the artifacts was faulty and came under
solid criticism?
Some have pointed out that US archaeologists ignore finds of this
nature south of the Rio Grande.
[/quote]
I'm sure you know the following, and are asking about responses to
Lorenzo and Mirambell, but it was interesting looking for actual
archaeological stuff  .
All I was easily able to find were references to Lorenzo and Mirambell
publications between the 1960's (or so) and 1999 on Tlapacoya. The
original work appears to be decades ago, and I'm a little surprised
that it isn't easier to find comments on the dating. The following is
the most recent I can find about the dating in question:
Lorenzo, Jose Luis, and Lorena Mirambell 1999 The Inhabitants of
Mexico During the Upper Pleistocene. In Ice Age People of North
America. Edited by Robson Bonnichsen and Karen Turnmire, pp. 482-496.
Oregon State University Press, Corvallis.
Lorenzo appears to have passed away. |
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| Mike R... |
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:37 am |
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On Nov 6, 10:23 am, Tom McDonald <kilt... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 5, 11:11 pm, Mike R <michaelrugg... at (no spam) mac.com> wrote:
Listeros,
A researcher wrote to me after I posted the Paisley Cave tool story
saying that artifacts found at the Tlapacoya site in Mexico go back to
24,000 years ago. He said the archaeology at the site verifying the
dates was sound.
I tried to find specific reports that would cast doubt on this but
those are not easily called up. Do any of you know about these
artifacts and if the dating of the artifacts was faulty and came under
solid criticism?
Some have pointed out that US archaeologists ignore finds of this
nature south of the Rio Grande.
I'm sure you know the following, and are asking about responses to
Lorenzo and Mirambell, but it was interesting looking for actual
archaeological stuff .
All I was easily able to find were references to Lorenzo and Mirambell
publications between the 1960's (or so) and 1999 on Tlapacoya. The
original work appears to be decades ago, and I'm a little surprised
that it isn't easier to find comments on the dating. The following is
the most recent I can find about the dating in question:
Lorenzo, Jose Luis, and Lorena Mirambell 1999 The Inhabitants of
Mexico During the Upper Pleistocene. In Ice Age People of North
America. Edited by Robson Bonnichsen and Karen Turnmire, pp. 482-496.
Oregon State University Press, Corvallis.
Lorenzo appears to have passed away.
[/quote]
Tom, What is your take on the data and do you have any idea of the
veracity of the claims?
Mike |
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| Tom McDonald... |
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:58 am |
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Guest
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On Nov 6, 10:37 am, Mike R <michaelrugg... at (no spam) mac.com> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 6, 10:23 am, Tom McDonald <kilt... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On Nov 5, 11:11 pm, Mike R <michaelrugg... at (no spam) mac.com> wrote:
Listeros,
A researcher wrote to me after I posted the Paisley Cave tool story
saying that artifacts found at the Tlapacoya site in Mexico go back to
24,000 years ago. He said the archaeology at the site verifying the
dates was sound.
I tried to find specific reports that would cast doubt on this but
those are not easily called up. Do any of you know about these
artifacts and if the dating of the artifacts was faulty and came under
solid criticism?
Some have pointed out that US archaeologists ignore finds of this
nature south of the Rio Grande.
I'm sure you know the following, and are asking about responses to
Lorenzo and Mirambell, but it was interesting looking for actual
archaeological stuff .
All I was easily able to find were references to Lorenzo and Mirambell
publications between the 1960's (or so) and 1999 on Tlapacoya. The
original work appears to be decades ago, and I'm a little surprised
that it isn't easier to find comments on the dating. The following is
the most recent I can find about the dating in question:
Lorenzo, Jose Luis, and Lorena Mirambell 1999 The Inhabitants of
Mexico During the Upper Pleistocene. In Ice Age People of North
America. Edited by Robson Bonnichsen and Karen Turnmire, pp. 482-496.
Oregon State University Press, Corvallis.
Lorenzo appears to have passed away.
Tom, What is your take on the data and do you have any idea of the
veracity of the claims?
[/quote]
I haven't really seen any more data than you have, and probably much
less; and especially I haven't seen any critiques of Lorenzo and
Mirambell's dating, at either Tlapacoya or El Cedral. I would have
thought that if there were serious questions about the dating of
either site, they would have been easier to find.
I don't have the stuff I looked up available right now, and I have to
get to work soon, but IIRC, one of their dates came from obsidian
hydration dating on what looked like a blade. That would be one place
to look for questions -- especially about the context in which the
item was found. We know that natural forces can cause toolstone to
fracture in ways that mimic artifacts, but I don't know whether this
is a possibility in this case.
Do you know whether experiments have shown the production of blade-
like lithics from natural causes? And do you know whether the blade
was found in a context that might define human vs. natural causation
of the item? |
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