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| Ruud Harmsen... |
 Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:00 am |
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Guest
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I think it has been mentioned several times here, and I agree, that
Spanish speakers who distinguish between <ll> and <y> (<ll> being
pronounced as a palatal l) still exist, but are now a minority
worldwide.
For many speakers, in areas of Spain and almost everywhere in the
Americas, these two have merged. My question is: this is probably not
true for all positions of <y>?
The rules I can think of are as follows:
Initial <y> and originally intervocalic <y> has merged with <ll>, but
final <y> (including final before adding a suffix) is still distinct
everywhere.
Examples:
ya, rayos for many speakers would not change their sound if they were
written *lla and *rallos.
But <y> in estoy, voy, soy, doy, hay etc. is always /j/ for all
speakers.
The word <y> meaning "and" is /i/ between vowels, but in
"cuarenta-y-tres" etc. is always /j/ and never coincides with <ll>.
(Last rule of which I am most uncertain):
In words like <rey>, but also the plural <reyes>, <y> is always /j/.
<Relles> would not sound the same as <reyes>.
So <rayos> and <reyes> behave differently.
Am I right?
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.eu |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:00 am |
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Guest
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On Nov 6, 5:00 am, Ruud Harmsen <r... at (no spam) rudhar.eu> wrote:
[quote]I think it has been mentioned several times here, and I agree, that
Spanish speakers who distinguish between <ll> and <y> (<ll> being
pronounced as a palatal l) still exist, but are now a minority
worldwide.
For many speakers, in areas of Spain and almost everywhere in the
Americas, these two have merged. My question is: this is probably not
true for all positions of <y>?
The rules I can think of are as follows:
Initial <y> and originally intervocalic <y> has merged with <ll>, but
final <y> (including final before adding a suffix) is still distinct
everywhere.
Examples:
ya, rayos for many speakers would not change their sound if they were
written *lla and *rallos.
But <y> in estoy, voy, soy, doy, hay etc. is always /j/ for all
speakers.
The word <y> meaning "and" is /i/ between vowels, but in
"cuarenta-y-tres" etc. is always /j/ and never coincides with <ll>.
(Last rule of which I am most uncertain):
In words like <rey>, but also the plural <reyes>, <y> is always /j/.
Relles> would not sound the same as <reyes>.
So <rayos> and <reyes> behave differently.
Am I right?
[/quote]
Is there a reason to posit two phonemes /i/ and /y/ in the variety of
Spanish you're referring to? |
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| ranjit_mathews at (no spam) yahoo.com... |
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:00 am |
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Guest
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On Nov 6, 5:00 am, Ruud Harmsen <r... at (no spam) rudhar.eu> wrote:
[quote]I think it has been mentioned several times here, and I agree, that
Spanish speakers who distinguish between <ll> and <y> (<ll> being
pronounced as a palatal l) still exist, but are now a minority
worldwide.
For many speakers, in areas of Spain and almost everywhere in the
Americas, these two have merged. My question is: this is probably not
true for all positions of <y>?
[/quote]
As far as I can hear, they have not merged in any position. In
intervocalic positions, what I hear is:
<y>: [j]
<ll>: [j:]
[quote]The rules I can think of are as follows:
Initial <y> and originally intervocalic <y> has merged with <ll>, but
final <y> (including final before adding a suffix) is still distinct
everywhere.
Examples:
ya, rayos for many speakers would not change their sound if they were
written *lla and *rallos.
But <y> in estoy, voy, soy, doy, hay etc. is always /j/ for all
speakers.
The word <y> meaning "and" is /i/ between vowels, but in
"cuarenta-y-tres" etc. is always /j/ and never coincides with <ll>.
(Last rule of which I am most uncertain):
In words like <rey>, but also the plural <reyes>, <y> is always /j/.
Relles> would not sound the same as <reyes>.
So <rayos> and <reyes> behave differently.
Am I right?
--
Ruud Harmsen,http://rudhar.eu[/quote] |
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| luis... |
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:46 am |
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Guest
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Ruud Harmsen escribió:
[quote]I think it has been mentioned several times here, and I agree, that
Spanish speakers who distinguish between <ll> and <y> (<ll> being
pronounced as a palatal l) still exist, but are now a minority
worldwide.
For many speakers, in areas of Spain and almost everywhere in the
Americas, these two have merged. My question is: this is probably not
true for all positions of <y>?
The rules I can think of are as follows:
Initial <y> and originally intervocalic <y> has merged with <ll>, but
final <y> (including final before adding a suffix) is still distinct
everywhere.
Examples:
ya, rayos for many speakers would not change their sound if they were
written *lla and *rallos.
[/quote]
Es así. Es más, no pocos escribirían _lla_ y _rallos_ creyendo que es la
forma correcta. Existe cierto complejo respecto de la ye y, ante la duda
de estar pronunciando con ye una palabra que se escribe con elle, a la
hora de escribirla la <ll> manda.
[quote]But <y> in estoy, voy, soy, doy, hay etc. is always /j/ for all
speakers.
The word <y> meaning "and" is /i/ between vowels, but in
"cuarenta-y-tres" etc. is always /j/ and never coincides with <ll>.
(Last rule of which I am most uncertain):
In words like <rey>, but also the plural <reyes>, <y> is always /j/.
Relles> would not sound the same as <reyes>.
So <rayos> and <reyes> behave differently.
Am I right?
[/quote] |
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| Ruud Harmsen... |
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:29 pm |
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Guest
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Fri, 6 Nov 2009 04:26:02 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim at (no spam) verizon.net>: in sci.lang:
[quote]Is there a reason to posit two phonemes /i/ and /y/ in the variety of
Spanish you're referring to?
[/quote]
You mean /i/ and /j/, no doubt. /y/ is the überhaupt vowel.
Irrelevant question, so I refuse to answer. Phoneme theory is just a
model that isn't always suitable to describe real world language
observations. The answer to your question doesn't interest me,
although I will read any answers other contributors might provide.
Now back to the questions _I_ posed, please, which _were_ relevant..
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.eu
"A fome de estar vivo é tão intensa / Paixão que se alimenta de perigo"
(Camané, Fado Penélope, CD Na Linha da Vida)
("De honger om te leven is zo intens / Passie die zich voedt aan gevaar") |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:36 pm |
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Guest
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On Nov 6, 5:29 pm, Ruud Harmsen <r... at (no spam) rudhar.eu> wrote:
[quote]Fri, 6 Nov 2009 04:26:02 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net>: in sci.lang:
Is there a reason to posit two phonemes /i/ and /y/ in the variety of
Spanish you're referring to?
You mean /i/ and /j/, no doubt. /y/ is the überhaupt vowel.
Irrelevant question, so I refuse to answer. Phoneme theory is just a
model that isn't always suitable to describe real world language
observations. The answer to your question doesn't interest me,
although I will read any answers other contributors might provide.
[/quote]
You wrote:
"But <y> in estoy, voy, soy, doy, hay etc. is always /j/ for all
speakers.
The word <y> meaning "and" is /i/ between vowels, but in
"cuarenta-y-tres" etc. is always /j/ and never coincides with <ll>. "
What justifies your statement regarding /j/ and /i/? |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:03 am |
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Guest
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On Nov 7, 4:30 am, Ruud Harmsen <r... at (no spam) rudhar.eu> wrote:
[quote]Fri, 6 Nov 2009 20:36:42 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net>: in sci.lang:
On Nov 6, 5:29 pm, Ruud Harmsen <r... at (no spam) rudhar.eu> wrote:
Fri, 6 Nov 2009 04:26:02 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net>: in sci.lang:
Is there a reason to posit two phonemes /i/ and /y/ in the variety of
Spanish you're referring to?
You mean /i/ and /j/, no doubt. /y/ is the überhaupt vowel.
Irrelevant question, so I refuse to answer. Phoneme theory is just a
model that isn't always suitable to describe real world language
observations. The answer to your question doesn't interest me,
although I will read any answers other contributors might provide.
You wrote:
"But <y> in estoy, voy, soy, doy, hay etc. is always /j/ for all
speakers.
The word <y> meaning "and" is /i/ between vowels, but in
"cuarenta-y-tres" etc. is always /j/ and never coincides with <ll>. "
What justifies your statement regarding /j/ and /i/?
Question deliberately ignored for being uninteresting and irrelevant..
[/quote]
Yes, as we saw not long ago, your apparent previous understanding of
phonemics has regressed. |
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| Ruud Harmsen... |
| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 4:30 am |
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Guest
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Fri, 6 Nov 2009 20:36:42 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim at (no spam) verizon.net>: in sci.lang:
[quote]On Nov 6, 5:29 pm, Ruud Harmsen <r... at (no spam) rudhar.eu> wrote:
Fri, 6 Nov 2009 04:26:02 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net>: in sci.lang:
Is there a reason to posit two phonemes /i/ and /y/ in the variety of
Spanish you're referring to?
You mean /i/ and /j/, no doubt. /y/ is the überhaupt vowel.
Irrelevant question, so I refuse to answer. Phoneme theory is just a
model that isn't always suitable to describe real world language
observations. The answer to your question doesn't interest me,
although I will read any answers other contributors might provide.
You wrote:
"But <y> in estoy, voy, soy, doy, hay etc. is always /j/ for all
speakers.
The word <y> meaning "and" is /i/ between vowels, but in
"cuarenta-y-tres" etc. is always /j/ and never coincides with <ll>. "
What justifies your statement regarding /j/ and /i/?
[/quote]
Question deliberately ignored for being uninteresting and irrelevant..
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.eu
"A fome de estar vivo é tão intensa / Paixão que se alimenta de perigo"
(Camané, Fado Penélope, CD Na Linha da Vida)
("De honger om te leven is zo intens / Passie die zich voedt aan gevaar") |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:23 am |
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Guest
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On Nov 7, 8:50 am, Ruud Harmsen <r... at (no spam) rudhar.eu> wrote:
[quote]Sat, 7 Nov 2009 05:03:32 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net>: in sci.lang:
On Nov 7, 4:30 am, Ruud Harmsen <r... at (no spam) rudhar.eu> wrote:
Fri, 6 Nov 2009 20:36:42 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net>: in sci.lang:
On Nov 6, 5:29 pm, Ruud Harmsen <r... at (no spam) rudhar.eu> wrote:
Fri, 6 Nov 2009 04:26:02 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net>: in sci.lang:
Is there a reason to posit two phonemes /i/ and /y/ in the variety of
Spanish you're referring to?
You mean /i/ and /j/, no doubt. /y/ is the überhaupt vowel.
Irrelevant question, so I refuse to answer. Phoneme theory is just a
model that isn't always suitable to describe real world language
observations. The answer to your question doesn't interest me,
although I will read any answers other contributors might provide.
You wrote:
"But <y> in estoy, voy, soy, doy, hay etc. is always /j/ for all
speakers.
The word <y> meaning "and" is /i/ between vowels, but in
"cuarenta-y-tres" etc. is always /j/ and never coincides with <ll>. "
What justifies your statement regarding /j/ and /i/?
Question deliberately ignored for being uninteresting and irrelevant..
Yes, as we saw not long ago, your apparent previous understanding of
phonemics has regressed.
My question wasn't about phonemics, but about Spanish. You are fouling
the discussion again, by your personal attacks that contribute nothing
to the question I posed. I refuse to discuss this with you because I
know beforehand that you are not aiming at a solution, not at more
knowledge or better insight, but only at kicking others down in order
to look better yourself. You don't, on the contrary.
[/quote]
How is it not relevant to the phonemic inventory of Spanish, not to
know what phonemes are included in that inventory? |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 7:31 am |
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Guest
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On Nov 7, 11:57 am, Ruud Harmsen <r... at (no spam) rudhar.eu> wrote:
[quote]Sat, 7 Nov 2009 08:23:00 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net>: in sci.lang:
How is it not relevant to the phonemic inventory of Spanish, not to
know what phonemes are included in that inventory?
Again, all I wanted to know is whether in "rayos" and "reyes" what is
written as "y" sound different in all known kind of Spanish. Please
answer that question or if you don't know, wait until others do.
[/quote]
"Sound different" to whom? If they sound different to native speakers,
then they are phonemic; if not, then not. If they sound different to
non-Spanish-speakers but not to Spanish-speakers, then what does it
matter? |
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| ... |
| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:20 am |
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Guest
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Peter T. Daniels <grammatim at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
[quote]
"Sound different" to whom? If they sound different to native speakers,
then they are phonemic; if not, then not. If they sound different to
non-Spanish-speakers but not to Spanish-speakers, then what does it
matter?
[/quote]
If you are learning Spanish and do not want to sound "strange" to the
natives, you might want to learn to pronounce the difference properly.
Famously, [β] and [b] are allophones, but if you do not get their
distribution right, you'll never get rid of your foreign accent...
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
| Radovan GarabÃk http://kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk/~garabik/ |
| __..--^^^--..__ garabik at (no spam) kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk |
-----------------------------------------------------------
Antivirus alert: file .signature infected by signature virus.
Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me into your signature file to help me spread! |
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| Ruud Harmsen... |
| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:50 am |
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Guest
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Sat, 7 Nov 2009 05:03:32 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim at (no spam) verizon.net>: in sci.lang:
[quote]On Nov 7, 4:30 am, Ruud Harmsen <r... at (no spam) rudhar.eu> wrote:
Fri, 6 Nov 2009 20:36:42 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net>: in sci.lang:
On Nov 6, 5:29 pm, Ruud Harmsen <r... at (no spam) rudhar.eu> wrote:
Fri, 6 Nov 2009 04:26:02 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net>: in sci.lang:
Is there a reason to posit two phonemes /i/ and /y/ in the variety of
Spanish you're referring to?
You mean /i/ and /j/, no doubt. /y/ is the überhaupt vowel.
Irrelevant question, so I refuse to answer. Phoneme theory is just a
model that isn't always suitable to describe real world language
observations. The answer to your question doesn't interest me,
although I will read any answers other contributors might provide.
You wrote:
"But <y> in estoy, voy, soy, doy, hay etc. is always /j/ for all
speakers.
The word <y> meaning "and" is /i/ between vowels, but in
"cuarenta-y-tres" etc. is always /j/ and never coincides with <ll>. "
What justifies your statement regarding /j/ and /i/?
Question deliberately ignored for being uninteresting and irrelevant..
Yes, as we saw not long ago, your apparent previous understanding of
phonemics has regressed.
[/quote]
My question wasn't about phonemics, but about Spanish. You are fouling
the discussion again, by your personal attacks that contribute nothing
to the question I posed. I refuse to discuss this with you because I
know beforehand that you are not aiming at a solution, not at more
knowledge or better insight, but only at kicking others down in order
to look better yourself. You don't, on the contrary.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.eu
"A fome de estar vivo é tão intensa / Paixão que se alimenta de perigo"
(Camané, Fado Penélope, CD Na Linha da Vida)
("De honger om te leven is zo intens / Passie die zich voedt aan gevaar") |
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| Ruud Harmsen... |
| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 11:57 am |
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Guest
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Sat, 7 Nov 2009 08:23:00 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim at (no spam) verizon.net>: in sci.lang:
[quote]How is it not relevant to the phonemic inventory of Spanish, not to
know what phonemes are included in that inventory?
[/quote]
Again, all I wanted to know is whether in "rayos" and "reyes" what is
written as "y" sound different in all known kind of Spanish. Please
answer that question or if you don't know, wait until others do.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.eu
"A fome de estar vivo é tão intensa / Paixão que se alimenta de perigo"
(Camané, Fado Penélope, CD Na Linha da Vida)
("De honger om te leven is zo intens / Passie die zich voedt aan gevaar") |
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| Back to top |
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| Ruud Harmsen... |
| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:50 pm |
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Guest
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Sat, 7 Nov 2009 09:31:51 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim at (no spam) verizon.net>: in sci.lang:
[quote]On Nov 7, 11:57 am, Ruud Harmsen <r... at (no spam) rudhar.eu> wrote:
Sat, 7 Nov 2009 08:23:00 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net>: in sci.lang:
How is it not relevant to the phonemic inventory of Spanish, not to
know what phonemes are included in that inventory?
Again, all I wanted to know is whether in "rayos" and "reyes" what is
written as "y" sound different in all known kind of Spanish. Please
answer that question or if you don't know, wait until others do.
"Sound different" to whom? If they sound different to native speakers,
then they are phonemic; if not, then not. If they sound different to
non-Spanish-speakers but not to Spanish-speakers, then what does it
matter?
[/quote]
If you are ignorant about Spanish, please stay out of this thread.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.eu |
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| Ruud Harmsen... |
| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:59 pm |
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Guest
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Fri, 06 Nov 2009 11:00:49 +0100: Ruud Harmsen <rh at (no spam) rudhar.eu>: in
sci.lang:
[quote]I think it has been mentioned several times here, and I agree, that
Spanish speakers who distinguish between <ll> and <y> (<ll> being
pronounced as a palatal l) still exist, but are now a minority
worldwide.
For many speakers, in areas of Spain and almost everywhere in the
Americas, these two have merged. My question is: this is probably not
true for all positions of <y>?
[/quote]
http://liceu.uab.es/~joaquim/publicacions/SAMPA_Spanish_93.pdf
===
[...] and the affricate allophone of /y/ appear according to the
character of the preceding consonant.
/===
Allophone?
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.eu |
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