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| Joerg... |
 Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:01 pm |
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Guest
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Jim Thompson wrote:
[quote]On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 17:37:28 -0800, Joerg <invalid at (no spam) invalid.invalid
wrote:
Jim Thompson wrote:
On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 17:16:34 -0800, Joerg <invalid at (no spam) invalid.invalid
wrote:
Jim Thompson wrote:
On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 16:55:33 -0800, Joerg <invalid at (no spam) invalid.invalid
wrote:
JeffM wrote:
Joerg wrote:
In contrast to just about any other CAD company I know
Cadsoft trusts their users. You are given a license code
and they trust that you won't leak that to others.
So no dongles, MAC-locks and other such nonsense.
On top of that they allow you to spool another copy
onto your laptop for road use,
at least that's what my license says.
I find that a very fair policy.
I challenge you to name any competitor that's this generous.
That's nice as far as it goes--right up to the DRM.
Cadsoft's style of distrust simply takes another form.
It's still distrust.
Their treatment of Markus speaks volumes.
As I said in the part you snipped he has used clandestinely generated
work. Probably a perfectly honest mistake but IMHO Cadsoft cannot be
blamed for that.
The very same thing would happen if you unknowingly bought a used car
where some hacker had tampered with the ECU. When the smog check guys
find out they will take away your rights to drive that car.
True hackers know how to switch back to "factory" settings during
inspection ;-)
Yeah, but the not so honest guys make an engine "run good", take your
check, high-tail it and then the NOX is way over the limit or something.
Which you won't find out until a year later when smog is due, and then
the guy is long gone.
It's particularly easy to pass smog tests now that the bureaucrats
simply plug into an ECU port... dummies ;-)
Out here they still hang a probe into the tail pipe.
Arizona only does that with really old stuff, like carbureted w/o ECU,
and heavy trucks.
So how do they think they can avoid fraud? Or to say it more bluntly,
were they even thinking?
Joerg, You fret too much about the wrong things. Move to AZ or NV and
enjoy the good life, while you have a chance.
[/quote]
Try to sell a house here :-)
So far life is good out here. If they impose the net receipts tax it'll
be less good. Then again, that will cause hefty layoffs and more work
for outsiders like me.
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM. |
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| Joerg... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:48 pm |
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JeffM wrote:
[quote]Joerg wrote:
As I said in the part you snipped
he has used clandestinely generated work.
Well, *you* use library parts generated by others.
[/quote]
Nope. I don't. As I understood it he used part of a schematic on several
of his designs, not just a library part.
[quote]What I see is you looking down your nose at those who do likewise.
[/quote]
Huh?
[quote]Probably a perfectly honest mistake
but IMHO Cadsoft cannot be blamed for that.
Markus was a paid-up customer of Cadsoft.
It would have been trivial for them to get him out of his bind.
As always, it's the LEGIT users who get screwed by DRM.
[/quote]
Yep, they probably could have been a bit more cordial in this case. OTOH
if word gets around suddenly dozens of others want the same service and
that's where it becomes dicey.
[quote]That Cadsoft doesn't recognize this about DRM
makes them yet another for the DO NOT PURCHASE list.
[/quote]
Everybody has his own list. I would instantly upgrade to Eagle V5 if
they hadn't screwed up the hierarchy again. Because other than for the
lack of a hierachy it's perfect.
[quote]Screwing your customers is a STUPID business model.
I don't know what the solution to piracy is
but I do know that DRM AIN'T IT.
[/quote]
Well, while we are at it, what do you propose then?
[quote]The very same thing would happen
if you unknowingly bought a used car
where some hacker had tampered with the ECU.
When the smog check guys find out
He didn't go to the smog check guys.
He went to the factory guys WHO HE HAD PAID.
NO ONE TOLD HIM ABOUT THIS SHIT AHEAD OF TIME.
[/quote]
How come I knew of this before I bought Eagle? For some reason the same
must be true for most others. Else there'd be lots of flak about it on
the rather busy Eagle newsgroups, and there isn't.
[quote]they will take away your rights to drive that car.
If **the Ford factory guys** came in the middle of the night
and crippled my car because I had tinkered with it,
I'd be plenty pissed.
If they did that after I had let a trusted mechanic work on it
and he had been denied the don't-ever-do list by the factory
my level of anger would be off the chart.
Jim Thompson wrote:
True hackers know how to switch back to "factory" settings
during inspection ;-)
Exactly. DRM doesn't affect *real* pirates.
Only LEGIT customers get screwed by DRM.
[/quote]
Well, do not accept or copy schematic sections from unknown sources and
you'll be just fine. In the same way that I assume you do not simply
click "download" on any sort of program from the web that you find
interesting.
[quote]Clueless companies don't deserve to have any more customers
and only clueless companies use this stupid fad in their products.
Frankly, dongles are more honest.
[/quote]
I will never buy a product with a dongle, and many others won't either.
Never have.
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM. |
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| Michael A. Terrell... |
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:07 am |
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Joerg wrote:
[quote]
Jim Thompson wrote:
On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 16:55:33 -0800, Joerg <invalid at (no spam) invalid.invalid
wrote:
JeffM wrote:
Joerg wrote:
In contrast to just about any other CAD company I know
Cadsoft trusts their users. You are given a license code
and they trust that you won't leak that to others.
So no dongles, MAC-locks and other such nonsense.
On top of that they allow you to spool another copy
onto your laptop for road use,
at least that's what my license says.
I find that a very fair policy.
I challenge you to name any competitor that's this generous.
That's nice as far as it goes--right up to the DRM.
Cadsoft's style of distrust simply takes another form.
It's still distrust.
Their treatment of Markus speaks volumes.
As I said in the part you snipped he has used clandestinely generated
work. Probably a perfectly honest mistake but IMHO Cadsoft cannot be
blamed for that.
The very same thing would happen if you unknowingly bought a used car
where some hacker had tampered with the ECU. When the smog check guys
find out they will take away your rights to drive that car.
True hackers know how to switch back to "factory" settings during
inspection ;-)
Yeah, but the not so honest guys make an engine "run good", take your
check, high-tail it and then the NOX is way over the limit or something.
Which you won't find out until a year later when smog is due, and then
the guy is long gone.
It's particularly easy to pass smog tests now that the bureaucrats
simply plug into an ECU port... dummies ;-)
Out here they still hang a probe into the tail pipe.
[/quote]
The car, or the driver?
--
The movie 'Deliverance' isn't a documentary! |
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| Jim Thompson... |
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:29 am |
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Guest
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On Fri, 06 Nov 2009 01:07:07 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
<mike.terrell at (no spam) earthlink.net> wrote:
[quote]
Joerg wrote:
Jim Thompson wrote:
On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 16:55:33 -0800, Joerg <invalid at (no spam) invalid.invalid
wrote:
JeffM wrote:
Joerg wrote:
In contrast to just about any other CAD company I know
Cadsoft trusts their users. You are given a license code
and they trust that you won't leak that to others.
So no dongles, MAC-locks and other such nonsense.
On top of that they allow you to spool another copy
onto your laptop for road use,
at least that's what my license says.
I find that a very fair policy.
I challenge you to name any competitor that's this generous.
That's nice as far as it goes--right up to the DRM.
Cadsoft's style of distrust simply takes another form.
It's still distrust.
Their treatment of Markus speaks volumes.
As I said in the part you snipped he has used clandestinely generated
work. Probably a perfectly honest mistake but IMHO Cadsoft cannot be
blamed for that.
The very same thing would happen if you unknowingly bought a used car
where some hacker had tampered with the ECU. When the smog check guys
find out they will take away your rights to drive that car.
True hackers know how to switch back to "factory" settings during
inspection ;-)
Yeah, but the not so honest guys make an engine "run good", take your
check, high-tail it and then the NOX is way over the limit or something.
Which you won't find out until a year later when smog is due, and then
the guy is long gone.
It's particularly easy to pass smog tests now that the bureaucrats
simply plug into an ECU port... dummies ;-)
Out here they still hang a probe into the tail pipe.
The car, or the driver?
[/quote]
Don't give the Californicators any new ideas. They know about
Methane, but didn't think about tax-paying humans 
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
California is a truly beautiful state.
Too bad it's been so thoroughly fucked over by liberals. |
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| Joerg... |
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:40 am |
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Michael A. Terrell wrote:
[quote]Joerg wrote:
Jim Thompson wrote:
[/quote]
[...]
[quote]It's particularly easy to pass smog tests now that the bureaucrats
simply plug into an ECU port... dummies ;-)
Out here they still hang a probe into the tail pipe.
The car, or the driver?
[/quote]
Depending on your driving style to the place possibly both. Sometimes
the driver doesn't pass and then gets a ride in the sheriff's car.
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM. |
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| langwadt at (no spam) fonz.dk... |
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:13 pm |
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Guest
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On 6 Nov., 19:57, John Devereux <j... at (no spam) devereux.me.uk> wrote:
[quote]Joerg <inva... at (no spam) invalid.invalid> writes:
Nico Coesel wrote:
Joerg <inva... at (no spam) invalid.invalid> wrote:
[...]
A few sentences later, quote "This evil schema part creaped into
quite some of my designs with which the only option I have now is
to recapture their schemas from scratch!"
[...]
When it comes to importing stuff that was made with illegal hackware I
see that differently. This case was unfortunate in that the guy who
imported it obviously did not know that the designer had used an
illegal copy. But as I said, in the same way if you receive a fake
100-Euro bill the same thing can happen in that the cashier at the
Hema store refuses it and you have no rights other than sue the guy
who gave it to you.
From the above it sounds more like they won't accept the fake bill *and
then they confiscate all your genuine money too*.
If it just rejected the part with a warning "part MC68HC11 created with
illegal copy", and allowed you to delete it, that would be more
reasonable. Why deliberatly infect the designs of honest customers?
CAD companies must pay their employees, pay into their health plan,
pay rent, heating, taxes and, oh, preferably turn a little
profit. Cadsoft's way of protection is, for me, definitely superior to
other alternatives such as MAC-lock or those dreaded dongles.
I agree it is better, but that does not make it acceptable.
IMO one of the great advantages of using a product like Eagle with good
community support would have been the ability to share libraries with
other users. But this is unthinkable given the above.
[/quote]
sounds like a strange way to attract new and keep old customers
it prevents someone who's used a cracked version from buying a legal
copy, because
it won't accept the old designs
it prevents someone with a legal copy with possibly contaminated
designs from buying
an upgrade
and I guess any design could become contaminated if anyone who worked
on it got his
key stolen and it got out in the open
-Lasse |
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| Nico Coesel... |
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:54 pm |
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Guest
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Joerg <invalid at (no spam) invalid.invalid> wrote:
[quote]JeffM wrote:
JeffM wrote:
The product called Cadsoft EAGLE is infected with DRM.
If you give it the opportunity,
it will lock you out of your work product.
http://tinyurl.com/TheEAGLE-Virus
Baron wrote:
Total bull !
Your statement shows you to be a fool of few words
and of fewer actual ideas.
I suggest a reading comprehension course.
Markus described the whole sad tale.
Quote "... just because I once copied a voltage regulator (I think it
was) out of a design which aparently was made by some third party with a
cracked version."
A few sentences later, quote "This evil schema part creaped into quite
some of my designs with which the only option I have now is to recapture
their schemas from scratch!"
[/quote]
If this is true, then Cadsoft should be avoided. A piece of software
should not throw away or cripple files under any circumstance. If it
does, it is useless. Period.
--
Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply
indicates you are not using the right tools...
"If it doesn't fit, use a bigger hammer!"
-------------------------------------------------------------- |
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| Joerg... |
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:23 pm |
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Guest
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Nico Coesel wrote:
[quote]Joerg <invalid at (no spam) invalid.invalid> wrote:
JeffM wrote:
JeffM wrote:
The product called Cadsoft EAGLE is infected with DRM.
If you give it the opportunity,
it will lock you out of your work product.
http://tinyurl.com/TheEAGLE-Virus
Baron wrote:
Total bull !
Your statement shows you to be a fool of few words
and of fewer actual ideas.
I suggest a reading comprehension course.
Markus described the whole sad tale.
Quote "... just because I once copied a voltage regulator (I think it
was) out of a design which aparently was made by some third party with a
cracked version."
A few sentences later, quote "This evil schema part creaped into quite
some of my designs with which the only option I have now is to recapture
their schemas from scratch!"
If this is true, then Cadsoft should be avoided. A piece of software
should not throw away or cripple files under any circumstance. If it
does, it is useless. Period.
[/quote]
When it comes to importing stuff that was made with illegal hackware I
see that differently. This case was unfortunate in that the guy who
imported it obviously did not know that the designer had used an illegal
copy. But as I said, in the same way if you receive a fake 100-Euro bill
the same thing can happen in that the cashier at the Hema store refuses
it and you have no rights other than sue the guy who gave it to you.
CAD companies must pay their employees, pay into their health plan, pay
rent, heating, taxes and, oh, preferably turn a little profit. Cadsoft's
way of protection is, for me, definitely superior to other alternatives
such as MAC-lock or those dreaded dongles.
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM. |
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| John Devereux... |
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:57 pm |
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Guest
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Joerg <invalid at (no spam) invalid.invalid> writes:
[quote]Nico Coesel wrote:
Joerg <invalid at (no spam) invalid.invalid> wrote:
[/quote]
[...]
[quote]A few sentences later, quote "This evil schema part creaped into
quite some of my designs with which the only option I have now is
to recapture their schemas from scratch!"
[/quote]
[...]
[quote]When it comes to importing stuff that was made with illegal hackware I
see that differently. This case was unfortunate in that the guy who
imported it obviously did not know that the designer had used an
illegal copy. But as I said, in the same way if you receive a fake
100-Euro bill the same thing can happen in that the cashier at the
Hema store refuses it and you have no rights other than sue the guy
who gave it to you.
[/quote]
From the above it sounds more like they won't accept the fake bill *and
then they confiscate all your genuine money too*.
If it just rejected the part with a warning "part MC68HC11 created with
illegal copy", and allowed you to delete it, that would be more
reasonable. Why deliberatly infect the designs of honest customers?
[quote]CAD companies must pay their employees, pay into their health plan,
pay rent, heating, taxes and, oh, preferably turn a little
profit. Cadsoft's way of protection is, for me, definitely superior to
other alternatives such as MAC-lock or those dreaded dongles.
[/quote]
I agree it is better, but that does not make it acceptable.
IMO one of the great advantages of using a product like Eagle with good
community support would have been the ability to share libraries with
other users. But this is unthinkable given the above.
--
John Devereux |
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| Nico Coesel... |
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:08 pm |
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Guest
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Joerg <invalid at (no spam) invalid.invalid> wrote:
[quote]Nico Coesel wrote:
Joerg <invalid at (no spam) invalid.invalid> wrote:
JeffM wrote:
JeffM wrote:
The product called Cadsoft EAGLE is infected with DRM.
If you give it the opportunity,
it will lock you out of your work product.
http://tinyurl.com/TheEAGLE-Virus
Baron wrote:
Total bull !
Your statement shows you to be a fool of few words
and of fewer actual ideas.
I suggest a reading comprehension course.
Markus described the whole sad tale.
Quote "... just because I once copied a voltage regulator (I think it
was) out of a design which aparently was made by some third party with a
cracked version."
A few sentences later, quote "This evil schema part creaped into quite
some of my designs with which the only option I have now is to recapture
their schemas from scratch!"
If this is true, then Cadsoft should be avoided. A piece of software
should not throw away or cripple files under any circumstance. If it
does, it is useless. Period.
When it comes to importing stuff that was made with illegal hackware I
see that differently. This case was unfortunate in that the guy who
imported it obviously did not know that the designer had used an illegal
[/quote]
That is why Cadsoft's behaviour is illegal under Dutch law. If you buy
something in Holland which appears to be stolen you'll still be the
rightful owner UNLESS you could have suspected you bought stolen goods
(ridiculous low price, weird circumstances, etc). Markus got the
schematic symbol in good faith and had no reason to doubt it. So
Markus is not part of the crime.
Cadsoft really should get to the root of the problem (for example by
disabling illegal copies) instead of incriminating their paying
customers. Besides I wonder how much time Cadsoft put in their copy
protection scheme. It might be more time than it would have taken to
fix some long standing issues.
--
Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply
indicates you are not using the right tools...
"If it doesn't fit, use a bigger hammer!"
-------------------------------------------------------------- |
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| JeffM... |
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:03 pm |
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Baron wrote:
[quote]There is no DRM in Eagle. Period !
DRM == Debiitating Restriction Measures[/quote]
aka a remote kill switch not under the user's control.
Big hint: DRM != Digital Rights Management
(When you surrender to DRM, **YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS**.)
[quote]Baron wrote:
plagiarist.
The guy copied something from someone else's work
to use in his own.
So he was trying to save himself some work.
I've no problem with that.
I have always assumed he was given full permission[/quote]
to reuse anything in the document he received.
....and I'm not real big on extension of
the pre-Internet "Permission Culture"
based on things that didn't have zero marginal cost.
[quote]But to try and assign blame on Eagle for his own actions...
Had Cadsoft made people **aware** that as a term of sale[/quote]
they were receiving a product with a remote kill switch,
THAT would be different.
A contract that doesn't reveal ALL of it's terms is NOT a contract.
Those corporations who use DRM
should be required to put BIG stickers on their products
and BIG notices on all of their Web pages stating that.
Otherwise it's a deceptive business practice. |
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| Joerg... |
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:11 pm |
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Guest
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John Devereux wrote:
[quote]Joerg <invalid at (no spam) invalid.invalid> writes:
Nico Coesel wrote:
Joerg <invalid at (no spam) invalid.invalid> wrote:
[...]
A few sentences later, quote "This evil schema part creaped into
quite some of my designs with which the only option I have now is
to recapture their schemas from scratch!"
[...]
When it comes to importing stuff that was made with illegal hackware I
see that differently. This case was unfortunate in that the guy who
imported it obviously did not know that the designer had used an
illegal copy. But as I said, in the same way if you receive a fake
100-Euro bill the same thing can happen in that the cashier at the
Hema store refuses it and you have no rights other than sue the guy
who gave it to you.
From the above it sounds more like they won't accept the fake bill *and
then they confiscate all your genuine money too*.
If it just rejected the part with a warning "part MC68HC11 created with
illegal copy", and allowed you to delete it, that would be more
reasonable. Why deliberatly infect the designs of honest customers?
[/quote]
We don't know whether it was just a model. Sounds more like part of a
schematic.
[quote]CAD companies must pay their employees, pay into their health plan,
pay rent, heating, taxes and, oh, preferably turn a little
profit. Cadsoft's way of protection is, for me, definitely superior to
other alternatives such as MAC-lock or those dreaded dongles.
I agree it is better, but that does not make it acceptable.
IMO one of the great advantages of using a product like Eagle with good
community support would have been the ability to share libraries with
other users. But this is unthinkable given the above.
[/quote]
Do we know it was actually a library part alone that caused this?
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM. |
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| Joerg... |
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:19 pm |
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Guest
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Nico Coesel wrote:
[quote]Joerg <invalid at (no spam) invalid.invalid> wrote:
Nico Coesel wrote:
Joerg <invalid at (no spam) invalid.invalid> wrote:
JeffM wrote:
JeffM wrote:
The product called Cadsoft EAGLE is infected with DRM.
If you give it the opportunity,
it will lock you out of your work product.
http://tinyurl.com/TheEAGLE-Virus
Baron wrote:
Total bull !
Your statement shows you to be a fool of few words
and of fewer actual ideas.
I suggest a reading comprehension course.
Markus described the whole sad tale.
Quote "... just because I once copied a voltage regulator (I think it
was) out of a design which aparently was made by some third party with a
cracked version."
A few sentences later, quote "This evil schema part creaped into quite
some of my designs with which the only option I have now is to recapture
their schemas from scratch!"
If this is true, then Cadsoft should be avoided. A piece of software
should not throw away or cripple files under any circumstance. If it
does, it is useless. Period.
When it comes to importing stuff that was made with illegal hackware I
see that differently. This case was unfortunate in that the guy who
imported it obviously did not know that the designer had used an illegal
That is why Cadsoft's behaviour is illegal under Dutch law. If you buy
something in Holland which appears to be stolen you'll still be the
rightful owner UNLESS you could have suspected you bought stolen goods
(ridiculous low price, weird circumstances, etc). ...
[/quote]
Well, Dutch law seems to be, ahem, strange. AFAIK in pretty much any
other Western country you'd be required to hand over the stolen goods.
So if someone steals your car and sells it, can the new "owner" really
keep it when the Rijkspolitie stops him and finds out?
[quote]... Markus got the
schematic symbol in good faith and had no reason to doubt it. So
Markus is not part of the crime.
[/quote]
No, he is the victim of a criminal act committed by someone else.
[quote]Cadsoft really should get to the root of the problem (for example by
disabling illegal copies) instead of incriminating their paying
customers. ...
[/quote]
If you find the silver bullet in how to disable illegal copies I am sure
they would offer you a lucrative job instantly. But then you'd have to
move and learn Bavarian :-)
[quote]... Besides I wonder how much time Cadsoft put in their copy
protection scheme. It might be more time than it would have taken to
fix some long standing issues.
[/quote]
Agree, but only if they really have invested much time into that. I
believe that if they had sunk some energy into more important stuff like
hierarchical sheet structures they could have clocked tons of extra
sales. At least with some of my clients.
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM. |
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| Baron... |
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:19 pm |
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Guest
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JeffM wrote:
[quote]JeffM wrote:
The product called Cadsoft EAGLE is infected with DRM.
If you give it the opportunity,
it will lock you out of your work product.
http://tinyurl.com/TheEAGLE-Virus
Baron wrote:
Total bull !
Your statement shows you to be a fool of few words
and of fewer actual ideas.
I suggest a reading comprehension course.
[/quote]
There is no DRM in Eagle. Period !
[quote]Markus described the whole sad tale.
Though he was a paid-up user,
Cadsoft treated him like something to be scraped off their shoe.
Spoken like a plagiarist.
I suggest you learn what a word means before you use it.
http://google.com/search?q=define:plagiarist
[/quote]
I'm well aware of what the word means.
The guy copied something from someone else's work to use in his own.
So he was trying to save himself some work. I've no problem with that.
But to try and assign blame on Eagle for his own actions...
--
Best Regards:
Baron. |
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| JeffM... |
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:53 pm |
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Guest
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[quote]JeffM wrote:
I have always assumed he was given full permission
to reuse anything in the document he received.
Joerg wrote:
In that case the person giving him such permission has acted criminally,
by creating this work with an illegal copy of software. Very simple, IMHO.
[/quote]
You and I will never see eye to eye on "intellectual property".
e.g. In a time when tools make the creative process ever easier,
I see the ever-increasing time spans in laws
as a perversion of the intent of The Founding Fathers:
http://google.com/search?q=cache:xOpHk86NJYUJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_copyright_law+Berne-*+*-Authors-*-*-*-exclusive-Right-*-*-*-*-*-*+14.years+life-*-*-plus-50-*+life.plus.70.years+28.year+14.year+28.years+*-*-*-*-*-benefiting-*-*+Sonny.Bono+last+*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-securing+last+75-*+120-*+registration+last+last+for-*-Times
....and a remote kill switch THAT ISN'T REVEALED
is more than just bad faith; it is a breach of contract law. |
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