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| António Marques... |
 Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:16 am |
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We're told _islam_ means 'submission' or similar in arabic.
- was a word 'islam' attested before Islam?
- does 'islam' have an independent existence today, or is it only used
to refer to the religion?
- are there cognates in other AA languages? |
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| Yusuf B Gursey... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:16 am |
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On Nov 5, 11:16 am, António Marques <m... at (no spam) sapo.pt> wrote:
[quote]We're told _islam_ means 'submission' or similar in arabic.
- was a word 'islam' attested before Islam?
- does 'islam' have an independent existence today, or is it only used
to refer to the religion?
[/quote]
the original classical arabic secular meanings are not in general use
anymore, it normally refers to religion. note what are believd to be
the original monotheists before Muhammad are refered to as "muslims"
as well. Thus Jesus and the other Prophets and their original
followers are considered "muslims".
[quote]- are there cognates in other AA languages?
[/quote]
the root salima "to be safe, sound" is a genuine Arabic word, with
cognates in other but the use of 'aslama ("he submitted", the finite
verbal form of 'isla:m) as a techical religious term is probably
borrowed from Aramaic, acc. Jeffreys "The Foreign Vocabulary of the
Qur'an" p. 62 -63 found online for free:
http://answering-islam.org/Books/Jeffery/Vocabulary/part2.htm |
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| Yusuf B Gursey... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:16 am |
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On Nov 5, 1:27 pm, António Marques <m... at (no spam) sapo.pt> wrote:
[quote]Harlan Messinger wrote:
Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
On Nov 5, 11:16 am, António Marques <m... at (no spam) sapo.pt> wrote:
We're told _islam_ means 'submission' or similar in arabic.
- was a word 'islam' attested before Islam?
- does 'islam' have an independent existence today, or is it only used
to refer to the religion?
the original classical arabic secular meanings are not in general use
anymore, it normally refers to religion. note what are believd to be
the original monotheists before Muhammad are refered to as "muslims"
as well. Thus Jesus and the other Prophets and their original
followers are considered "muslims".
Interesting. Then what word is used in Arabic to mean what we mean by
"Muslim"?
I think you're implying a distinction they don't make.
[/quote]
yes. they are considered to be different only in details of religious
law that for some reason God has not seen fit to reveal yet. |
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| Yusuf B Gursey... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:16 am |
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Guest
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On Nov 5, 12:39 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y... at (no spam) theworld.com> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 5, 11:16 am, António Marques <m... at (no spam) sapo.pt> wrote:
We're told _islam_ means 'submission' or similar in arabic.
- was a word 'islam' attested before Islam?
- does 'islam' have an independent existence today, or is it only used
to refer to the religion?
the original classical arabic secular meanings are not in general use
anymore, it normally refers to religion. note what are believd to be
the original monotheists before Muhammad are refered to as "muslims"
as well. Thus Jesus and the other Prophets and their original
followers are considered "muslims".
- are there cognates in other AA languages?
the root salima "to be safe, sound" is a genuine Arabic word, with
cognates in other but the use of 'aslama ("he submitted", the finite
verbal form of 'isla:m) as a techical religious term is probably
borrowed from Aramaic, acc. Jeffreys "The Foreign Vocabulary of the
Qur'an" p. 62 -63 found online for free:
http://answering-islam.org/Books/Jeffery/Vocabulary/part2.htm
[/quote]
the section also says that muslim-un (-un / -u is the nomiantive case
ending) was in use in Pre-Islamic Arabia (and gives a Safaitic
inscription as a reference to this), but that al-'isla:m-u "would seem
to have been formed by Muhammad himself". NB islamic tradition
mentions a rival prophet (considered a false prophet by muslims),
contemporary with Muhammad named musaylima(t) , diminuitive of "muslim" |
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| Ruud Harmsen... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:50 am |
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Thu, 05 Nov 2009 16:16:28 +0000: António Marques <m.ap at (no spam) sapo.pt>: in
sci.lang:
[quote]We're told _islam_ means 'submission' or similar in arabic.
- was a word 'islam' attested before Islam?
[/quote]
salaam meaning peace is of the same root.
[quote]- does 'islam' have an independent existence today, or is it only used
to refer to the religion?
- are there cognates in other AA languages?
[/quote]
Shalom!
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.eu |
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| Harlan Messinger... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:07 pm |
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Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
[quote]On Nov 5, 11:16 am, António Marques <m... at (no spam) sapo.pt> wrote:
We're told _islam_ means 'submission' or similar in arabic.
- was a word 'islam' attested before Islam?
- does 'islam' have an independent existence today, or is it only used
to refer to the religion?
the original classical arabic secular meanings are not in general use
anymore, it normally refers to religion. note what are believd to be
the original monotheists before Muhammad are refered to as "muslims"
as well. Thus Jesus and the other Prophets and their original
followers are considered "muslims".
[/quote]
Interesting. Then what word is used in Arabic to mean what we mean by
"Muslim"? |
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| António Marques... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:27 pm |
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Harlan Messinger wrote:
[quote]Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
On Nov 5, 11:16 am, António Marques <m... at (no spam) sapo.pt> wrote:
We're told _islam_ means 'submission' or similar in arabic.
- was a word 'islam' attested before Islam?
- does 'islam' have an independent existence today, or is it only used
to refer to the religion?
the original classical arabic secular meanings are not in general use
anymore, it normally refers to religion. note what are believd to be
the original monotheists before Muhammad are refered to as "muslims"
as well. Thus Jesus and the other Prophets and their original
followers are considered "muslims".
Interesting. Then what word is used in Arabic to mean what we mean by
"Muslim"?
[/quote]
I think you're implying a distinction they don't make. |
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| António Marques... |
| Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:56 pm |
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Well, thank you all for the discussion,
On Nov 5, 7:53 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y... at (no spam) theworld.com> wrote:
[quote]the section also says that muslim-un (-un / -u is the nomiantive case
ending) was in use in Pre-Islamic Arabia (and gives a Safaitic
inscription as a reference to this), but that al-'isla:m-u "would seem
to have been formed by Muhammad himself".
[/quote]
Speaking of whom, are there cognates of 'Muhammad', 'Ahmad' in other
AA languages?
[quote]NB islamic tradition
mentions a rival prophet (considered a false prophet by muslims),
contemporary with Muhammad named musaylima(t) , diminuitive of "muslim"
[/quote]
And this is one interesting piece of information I had no idea of. |
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| Yusuf B Gursey... |
| Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:57 am |
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On Nov 10, 9:56 pm, António Marques <ento... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]Well, thank you all for the discussion,
On Nov 5, 7:53 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y... at (no spam) theworld.com> wrote:
the section also says that muslim-un (-un / -u is the nomiantive case
ending) was in use in Pre-Islamic Arabia (and gives a Safaitic
inscription as a reference to this), but that al-'isla:m-u "would seem
to have been formed by Muhammad himself".
Speaking of whom, are there cognates of 'Muhammad', 'Ahmad' in other
AA languages?
[/quote]
Hamida (3rd pers. sing. perfect) means in arabic "praise, eulogize,
approve of; commend, laud, extol" Hammada is the intensive form,
"to praise highly (someone)". from the this one has the passive
participle muHammad(un) (the things in paranthesis are the nominal
case endings) "praised, commendable, laudable". from the first form
one has the elative adjective 'aHmad(u) "more (most) laudable, more
(most) commendable". these are arabic dervatives of the verbal forms.
looking for cognates of the roots (verbs) is easier. BDB, the old
etymological dictionary of Biblical Hebrew gives the following
West Semitic cognates: Biblical Hebrew HAmad "desire, take pleasure
in" = Aramaic (not in Syriac) Hămad ; Sabaic <Hmdm> "in gratitude
[praise]".
arab tradition gives muHammad as a pre-islamic proper name.
[quote]
NB islamic tradition
mentions a rival prophet (considered a false prophet by muslims),
contemporary with Muhammad named musaylima(t) , diminuitive of "muslim"
And this is one interesting piece of information I had no idea of.
[/quote]
more later. |
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| Yusuf B Gursey... |
| Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:27 am |
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Guest
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On Nov 11, 11:57Â am, Yusuf B Gursey <y... at (no spam) theworld.com> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 10, 9:56 pm, António Marques <ento... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
Well, thank you all for the discussion,
On Nov 5, 7:53 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y... at (no spam) theworld.com> wrote:
the section also says that muslim-un (-un / -u is the nomiantive case
ending) was in use in Pre-Islamic Arabia (and gives a Safaitic
inscription as a reference to this), but that al-'isla:m-u "would seem
to have been formed by Muhammad himself".
Speaking of whom, are there cognates of 'Muhammad', 'Ahmad' in other
AA languages?
Hamida (3rd pers. sing. perfect) means in arabic "praise, eulogize,
approve of; commend, laud, extol" Hammada is the intensive form,
"to praise highly (someone)". from the this one has the passive
participle muHammad(un) (the things in paranthesis are the nominal
case endings) "praised, commendable, laudable". from the first form
one has the elative adjective 'aHmad(u) "more (most) laudable, more
(most) commendable". these are arabic dervatives of the verbal forms.
looking for cognates of the roots (verbs) is easier. BDB, the old
etymological dictionary of Biblical Hebrew gives the following
West Semitic cognates: Biblical Hebrew HAmad "desire, take pleasure
in" = Aramaic (not in Syriac) Hămad ; Sabaic <Hmdm> "in gratitude
[praise]".
arab tradition gives muHammad as a pre-islamic proper name.
[/quote]
from Enc. of Islam II "Muhammad"
<<
Muhammad , the Prophet of Islam .
....
The name “Muh.ammad†is reported to have occurred previously among the
Arabs (e.g. Ibn Durayd, ed. Wüstenfeld, 6 f.; Ibn Sa`d, i/1, 111 f.)
and therefore need not be regarded as an epithet adopted later in life
by the Prophet. It should be noted, however, that the brief section on
such persons given by Ibn Saʿd has the heading, “Account of those who
were named Muh.ammad in the days of the dja:hiliyya [q.v.] in the hope
of being called to prophethood which had been predictedâ€, which
indicates the tendentious nature of some of these accounts. The fact
that the sources say frequently that in his youth Muh.ammad was called
Ami:n, a common Arab name meaning “faithful, trustworthyâ€, suggests
the possibility that this could have been his given name, a masculine
form from the same root as his mother's name, A:mina. The name
Muh.ammada for women occurs several times in the Syrian Book of the
Himyarites.
[quote]
[/quote]
also there is an inscription in a grotto in the Hijaz saying "I am
Muhmmad b. Abdullah" (without any epithets), the second in a list of
names, the first being an unknown personage (probably the scribe),
along with Muhammad's followers, in a place where they have been said
to have taken refuge during battle. the suthenticity of the
inscription was not challenged in a scholarly journal.
[quote]
NB islamic tradition
mentions a rival prophet (considered a false prophet by muslims),
contemporary with Muhammad named musaylima(t) , diminuitive of "muslim"
And this is one interesting piece of information I had no idea of.
more later.[/quote] |
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| Yusuf B Gursey... |
| Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:46 am |
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Guest
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On Nov 10, 9:56 pm, António Marques <ento... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]Well, thank you all for the discussion,
On Nov 5, 7:53 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y... at (no spam) theworld.com> wrote:
the section also says that muslim-un (-un / -u is the nomiantive case
ending) was in use in Pre-Islamic Arabia (and gives a Safaitic
inscription as a reference to this), but that al-'isla:m-u "would seem
to have been formed by Muhammad himself".
Speaking of whom, are there cognates of 'Muhammad', 'Ahmad' in other
AA languages?
NB islamic tradition
mentions a rival prophet (considered a false prophet by muslims),
contemporary with Muhammad named musaylima(t) , diminuitive of "muslim"
And this is one interesting piece of information I had no idea of.
[/quote]
actually, it is usually regarded as a dimunitiveof maslama(t) , but
that is of the same root.
from Enc. of Islam II "Musaylima"
<<
Musaylima b. H.abi:b, Abu: Thuma:ma , a man of Banu: H.ani:fa who
lived al-Yama:ma and led a large section of his tribe in revolt during
the wars of the ridda [q.v.].
The suggestion of some European scholars (as in the article in EI 1)
that Musaylima is a contemptuous diminutive of Maslama appears to be
mistaken. Because he claimed to be a prophet he is often called al-
Kadhdha:b, the liar or false prophet.
....
About the end of the year 10 (beginning of 632) Musaylima is said to
have written a letter to Muh.ammad suggesting some division of spheres
of authority, but the suggestion was rebuffed by Muh.ammad. His
following among Banu: H.ani:fa increased greatly after Muh.ammad's
death, and he was felt to be a serious threat to the nascent Islamic
state. Abu: Bakr therefore sent a large army against him under Kha:lid
b. al-Wali:d. A fierce battle took place at al-`Ak.raba:' [q.v.] with
its centre in a walled garden or orchard (h.adi:k.a), which came to be
known as “the garden of death” because of the numbers on both sides
killed there. The Muslims were victorious, but lost many k.urra:' or
K.ur'a:n-reciters. Responsibility for the death of Musaylima was
claimed by various men, including Wah.shi:, the Abyssinian slave who
had killed H.amza. Shortly before this battle Musaylima is said to
have married Sadja:h. [q.v.], the prophetess of the tribe of Tami:m.
W.G. Palgrave, travelling in Nadjd in 1862, found Musaylima regarded
as a prophet, and people quoted what Palgrave calls “burlesque
imitations” of the K.ur'a:n, though he does not reproduce any.
....
W.G. Palgrave, Narrative of a year's journey through Central and
Eastern Arabia, London 1865, i, 382.
....
(W. Montgomery Watt) |
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| Yusuf B Gursey... |
| Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:53 am |
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Guest
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On Nov 11, 4:27Â pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y... at (no spam) theworld.com> wrote:
[quote]from Enc. of Islam II "Muhammad"
[/quote]
by Assia Maria Harwazinski
[quote]
Â
Muhammad , the Prophet of Islam .
...
The name “Muh.ammad†is reported to have occurred previously among the
Arabs (e.g. Ibn Durayd, ed. Wüstenfeld, 6 f.; Ibn Sa`d, i/1, 111 f.)
and therefore need not be regarded as an epithet adopted later in life
by the Prophet. It should be noted, however, that the brief section on
such persons given by Ibn Saʿd has the heading, “Account of those who
were named Muh.ammad in the days of the dja:hiliyya [q.v.] in the hope
of being called to prophethood which had been predictedâ€, which
indicates the tendentious nature of some of these accounts. The fact
that the sources say frequently that in his youth Muh.ammad was called
Ami:n, a common Arab name meaning “faithful, trustworthyâ€, suggests
the possibility that this could have been his given name, a masculine
form from the same root as his mother's name, A:mina. The name
Muh.ammada for women occurs several times in the Syrian Book of the
Himyarites.
 [/quote] |
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| Yusuf B Gursey... |
| Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:07 pm |
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Guest
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On Nov 11, 4:46 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y... at (no spam) theworld.com> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 10, 9:56 pm, António Marques <ento... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
Well, thank you all for the discussion,
On Nov 5, 7:53 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y... at (no spam) theworld.com> wrote:
NB islamic tradition
mentions a rival prophet (considered a false prophet by muslims),
contemporary with Muhammad named musaylima(t) , diminuitive of "muslim"
And this is one interesting piece of information I had no idea of.
actually, it is usually regarded as a dimunitiveof maslama(t) , but
that is of the same root.
[/quote]
from Encyclopedia of the Qur'an "Musaylima"
<<
Musaylima
Musaylima b. Thuma:ma b. Kabi:r b. H.abi:b b. al-H.a:rith b. `Abd al-
H.a:rith, a leader of the Banu: H.ani:fa and rival of the Prophet.
Muslim sources derisively nickname him “Musaylima the liar” (al-
kadhdha:b, see lie ). Musaylima is a diminutive form of Maslama; this
can be deduced from a verse of `Uma:ra b. `Ukayl (Mubarrad, Ka:mil,
iii, 26).
....
The belief in the prophethood of Musaylima survived among his
believers in the first decades of Islam. His adherents used to gather
in the mosque of the Banu: Hani:fa in Ku:fa and the call la: ila:ha
illa: lla:h wa-Musaylima rasu:lu lla:h was heard from the minaret.
`Abdalla:h b. Mas`u:d ordered the detention of the followers of
Musaylima. Some repented and were released. Those who clung to their
faith were executed.
M.J. Kister
>> |
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| Yusuf B Gursey... |
| Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm |
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Guest
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On Nov 11, 4:27Â pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y... at (no spam) theworld.com> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 11, 11:57Â am, Yusuf B Gursey <y... at (no spam) theworld.com> wrote:
On Nov 10, 9:56 pm, António Marques <ento... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
Well, thank you all for the discussion,
On Nov 5, 7:53 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y... at (no spam) theworld.com> wrote:
the section also says that muslim-un (-un / -u is the nomiantive case
ending) was in use in Pre-Islamic Arabia (and gives a Safaitic
inscription as a reference to this), but that al-'isla:m-u "would seem
to have been formed by Muhammad himself".
Speaking of whom, are there cognates of 'Muhammad', 'Ahmad' in other
AA languages?
Hamida (3rd pers. sing. perfect) means in arabic "praise, eulogize,
approve of; commend, laud, extol" Hammada is the intensive form,
"to praise highly (someone)". from the this one has the passive
participle muHammad(un) (the things in paranthesis are the nominal
case endings) "praised, commendable, laudable". from the first form
one has the elative adjective 'aHmad(u) "more (most) laudable, more
(most) commendable". these are arabic dervatives of the verbal forms.
looking for cognates of the roots (verbs) is easier. BDB, the old
etymological dictionary of Biblical Hebrew gives the following
West Semitic cognates: Biblical Hebrew HAmad "desire, take pleasure
in" = Aramaic (not in Syriac) Hămad ; Sabaic <Hmdm> "in gratitude
[praise]".
arab tradition gives muHammad as a pre-islamic proper name.
from Enc. of Islam II "Muhammad"
Â
Muhammad , the Prophet of Islam .
...
The name “Muh.ammad†is reported to have occurred previously among the
Arabs (e.g. Ibn Durayd, ed. Wüstenfeld, 6 f.; Ibn Sa`d, i/1, 111 f.)
and therefore need not be regarded as an epithet adopted later in life
by the Prophet. It should be noted, however, that the brief section on
such persons given by Ibn Saʿd has the heading, “Account of those who
were named Muh.ammad in the days of the dja:hiliyya [q.v.] in the hope
of being called to prophethood which had been predictedâ€, which
indicates the tendentious nature of some of these accounts. The fact
that the sources say frequently that in his youth Muh.ammad was called
Ami:n, a common Arab name meaning “faithful, trustworthyâ€, suggests
the possibility that this could have been his given name, a masculine
form from the same root as his mother's name, A:mina. The name
Muh.ammada for women occurs several times in the Syrian Book of the
Himyarites.
Â
also there is an inscription in a grotto in the Hijaz saying "I am
Muhmmad b. Abdullah" (without any epithets), the second in a list of
names, the first being an unknown personage (probably the scribe),
along with Muhammad's followers, in a place where they have been said
to have taken refuge during  battle. the suthenticity of the
inscription was not challenged in a scholarly journal.
[/quote]
the inscriptions are to be found at (the most relevant one is the
second)
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/hamid1.html
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/hamid2.html
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/hamid3.html
the journal references are:
[1] M. Hamidullah, "Some Arabic Inscriptions Of Medinah Of The Early
Years Of Hijrah", Islamic Culture, 1939, Volume XIII, p. 438.
[2] G. C. Miles, "Early Islamic Inscriptions Near Ta'if In The Hijaz",
Journal Of Near Eastern Studies, 1948, Volume VII, p. 240.
[3] Y. H. Safadi, Islamic Calligraphy, 1979, Shambhala Publications,
Inc.: Boulder (Colorado), p. 15.
[4] A. Grohmann, "The Problem Of Dating Early Qur'ans", Der Islam,
1958, p. 221. |
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| DKleinecke... |
| Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:42 pm |
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Guest
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On Nov 11, 2:07 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y... at (no spam) theworld.com> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 11, 4:46 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y... at (no spam) theworld.com> wrote:
On Nov 10, 9:56 pm, António Marques <ento... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
Well, thank you all for the discussion,
On Nov 5, 7:53 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y... at (no spam) theworld.com> wrote:
NB islamic tradition
mentions a rival prophet (considered a false prophet by muslims),
contemporary with Muhammad named musaylima(t) , diminuitive of "muslim"
And this is one interesting piece of information I had no idea of.
actually, it is usually regarded as a dimunitiveof maslama(t) , but
that is of the same root.
from Encyclopedia of the Qur'an "Musaylima"
Musaylima
Musaylima b. Thuma:ma b. Kabi:r b. H.abi:b b. al-H.a:rith b. `Abd al-
H.a:rith, a leader of the Banu: H.ani:fa and rival of the Prophet.
Muslim sources derisively nickname him “Musaylima the liar” (al-
kadhdha:b, see lie ). Musaylima is a diminutive form of Maslama; this
can be deduced from a verse of `Uma:ra b. `Ukayl (Mubarrad, Ka:mil,
iii, 26).
...
The belief in the prophethood of Musaylima survived among his
believers in the first decades of Islam. His adherents used to gather
in the mosque of the Banu: Hani:fa in Ku:fa and the call la: ila:ha
illa: lla:h wa-Musaylima rasu:lu lla:h was heard from the minaret.
`Abdalla:h b. Mas`u:d ordered the detention of the followers of
Musaylima. Some repented and were released. Those who clung to their
faith were executed.
M.J. Kister
[/quote]
Does Kister indicate where he got that story? I don't find it in al-
Tabari. |
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