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| Author |
Message |
| William Black... |
 Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:50 pm |
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Guest
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Eugene Griessel wrote:
This particular ancient had probably done
[quote]a long apprenticeship in one of those dismal and dingy workshops in a
dockyard in England with peanuts for pay. That sort of training is no
longer economically feasible -
[/quote]
That'll be why traditional craft apprenticeships are becoming more
common in the UK...
--
William Black
"Any number under six"
The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat
single handed with a quarterstaff. |
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| William Black... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:52 pm |
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Guest
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Roger Conroy wrote:
[quote]A Craftsman is the person who's resignation/retirement/death can ruin your
business.
[/quote]
A craftsman is someone who should normally have an apprentice.
Mind you, it's over 25 years since I had one...
--
William Black
"Any number under six"
The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat
single handed with a quarterstaff. |
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| Dan... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:07 pm |
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Frogwatch wrote:
[quote]On Nov 5, 10:54 am, "La N" <nilita2004NOS... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
Eugene Griessel wrote:
On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 10:57:30 GMT, "La N" <nilita2004NOS... at (no spam) yahoo.com
wrote:
Roger Conroy wrote:
"tankfixer" <paul.carr... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.255c024f23d66e278bf at (no spam) news.bytemine.net...
In article <MPG.255bbf9c81e1cec0989... at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org>,
mborger... at (no spam) comcast.net says...
In article <df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272
at (no spam) v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, ohara... at (no spam) mindspring.com says...
My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to
know how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have
anything to do with CNC) from an entire career spent working at
IBM followed by another career spent working at a university
machine shop and also working as a policeman. Not only do I rely
on him for his skill at making things but I rely on his judgement
concerning people (us science geeks are bad with such people
skills). I see him aging and resting his eyes more every year
and I know somethign will suddenly happen to him without any
notice. When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store
of knowledge and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are
doing little to replace such people and the new guys just do not
have the store of odd useful things in their heads. How on
earth can we save such useful skills?
The classic way to maintain such knowlege is the apprenticeship
system. Can you assign a worker to spend the next year or two with
your machinist? That system worked out well in a small company I
used to work for. We had an apprentice machinist who worked with
our senior guy for several years before the older man retired. I
was sort of an apprentice to my boss in the area of analog
electronics. I was a decent programmer and digital designer, but
had only basic analog electronics. He worked me through from
simple to more complex circuits. Given his personality, there
was a lot of yelling
involved at times----but I learned a lot that way.
It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be
to somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful
form than writing but how?
Other than the Vulcan Mind Meld, an apprentice may be the best
way. Most really good technicians don't seem to mind teaching the
next generation---if you give them the time and resources.
Unfortunately our society too often says that people who make
things with their hands are somehow less worthy of respect..
I've heard that in Japan the Emperor's budget pays subsidies for
aprentices of the ancient arts such as sword making and that the
master craftsmen are very highly regarded. Perhaps we gaijin could
pick up a lesson or two from them.
Strange. In Canada people who make things with hands are usually
members of unions and often make much more money than those who work
in human/social services. Therefore, those who pick up a tool are
deemed to be worth more $$$ than those who help people who are down
and out.
It is thus in most places - you might pay the plumber more than a
doctor but you would not want to do his job and you sneer at those who
do!
I don't begrudge their (tradesmen) wages at all. I was just stymied to hear
there are those who dont't believe think they make a decent wage. It just
bothers me to think that tool handlers are valued more in $ocioeconomic
term$ than those who work with people - whether it be teachers, social
workers, child care workers, etc.
- nilita
My machinist is off today for an eye operation (glaucoma) and another
employee told me he is not 75, he is 77, YIKES.
Last year, we needed to make some slots in something .003" wide and
the thinnest slitting saws you can normally buy are .006" thick. I
finally found a company in Syracuse, NY selling slitting saws .003"
thick and called them. I got an old German guy who refused to sell
them to me because he said "You'll break them". He refused to sell
them until he talked to our old machinist and was convinced he knew
what he was doing.
Ten years ago when we started selling our product, we were using a
borrowed lathe and mill that were made in the early 40s. The
machinist was getting extreme tolerances out of these old worn out
machines simply because he knew how. When we licensed the technology
to a big company, they sent a machinist down to see how we were making
these things. When he saw these old machines and how it was being
done his jaw dropped in shock. Now, then years later they still talk
about that.
I tell the machinist that when he decides he cannot work anymore, I'll
pay him to sit in a lawn chair with a glass of iced tea and order
people around.
[/quote]
You'll lose your Republican ID card for that, you know...
Damned Commies.
Dan |
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| Eugene Griessel... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:28 pm |
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Guest
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On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 17:50:32 +0000, William Black
<william.black at (no spam) hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
[quote]Eugene Griessel wrote:
This particular ancient had probably done
a long apprenticeship in one of those dismal and dingy workshops in a
dockyard in England with peanuts for pay. That sort of training is no
longer economically feasible -
That'll be why traditional craft apprenticeships are becoming more
common in the UK...
[/quote]
Slave labour for peanuts? Pull the other one!.
Eugene L Griessel
If the sort of people who are needed to make socialism work existed
then one would not need socialism.
- I post only from Sci.Military.Naval - |
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| William Black... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:38 pm |
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Guest
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Eugene Griessel wrote:
[quote]On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 17:50:32 +0000, William Black
william.black at (no spam) hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
Eugene Griessel wrote:
This particular ancient had probably done
a long apprenticeship in one of those dismal and dingy workshops in a
dockyard in England with peanuts for pay. That sort of training is no
longer economically feasible -
That'll be why traditional craft apprenticeships are becoming more
common in the UK...
Slave labour for peanuts? Pull the other one!.
[/quote]
Not peanuts these days.
High youth unemployment, decent qualification system and a reasonably
high minimum wage means it's an attractive proposition for a lot of kids.
--
William Black
"Any number under six"
The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat
single handed with a quarterstaff. |
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| Frogwatch... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:54 pm |
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Guest
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On Nov 5, 8:46 pm, ha4h-g... at (no spam) KENT.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-
tickle-me wrote:
[quote]Eugene Griessel <eug... at (no spam) dynagen.co.za> writes:
On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 10:57:30 GMT, "La N" <nilita2004NOS... at (no spam) yahoo.com
wrote:
Roger Conroy wrote:
"tankfixer" <paul.carr... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.255c024f23d66e278bf at (no spam) news.bytemine.net...
In article <MPG.255bbf9c81e1cec0989... at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org>,
mborger... at (no spam) comcast.net says...
In article <df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272
at (no spam) v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, ohara... at (no spam) mindspring.com says...
decades. These men are notorious for the stringent criteria they
apply to potential appies! I know of one lady potter (she already had
a fine arts degree and had being throwing pots for years) who went and
"worked" with one - to learn his skills. He used her like a slave,
basically, and did not pay her at all! All part of learnng the craft..
That's the truth. Sadly however, it is less and less possible for people
to make the necessary sacrifices and remain able to support
themselves. The Japanese social welfare system is extracting more money
from individuals than ever before, and opportunity to study under a
master craftsman or not, there are simply very few who can afford to go
into such tutelage these days. NGO's do arise who try to subsidize such
people, leading to other problems, as you can imagine. It takes very
strong and determined individuals indeed: one follower of an old but
able Aikido shihan drives a taxi just so that he can regulate his time
to follow his teacher around wherever he goes.
[/quote]
"Craftsman" tools are no longer very good unfortunately although
certainly better than the usual "Harbor Freight" chinese trash.
Even today, the best tolerances are achieved by hand production. This
is true both in optics fabrication and in tool and die making. As my
machinist says, "When two dry parts have "stiction", (they actually
stick together from Van der Waals forces) you cannot get them any
better conforming, the tolerance is as good as it can get". You will
not get such close fits from CNC. Even parts made on optical diamond
turning systems have visible tool marks that prevent stiction whereas
a good worker can achieve invisible tool marks and good stiction.
The most useful quality this old guy has is his knowledge of materials
like "Yes, Macor is completely Ultra-High Vacuum compatible but it's a
bitch to get good tolerances with it" and similar. He will even
machine Beryllium as long as he can do it in an oil bath. He is worth
his weight in gold.
One time I wanted to cut tiny comb-like structures in alumina. He
devised a wire saw with .002" brass wire onto which a slurry of
diamond was fed to imbed into the brass wire that slowly rubbed
against the alumina cutting the notches. It would index every .005"
to cut another notch. The wire was carried in grooves of a 3"
diameter threaded spool and would reverse direction when it reached
the end of the spool to keep the wear on the wire even, truly friggin
amazing. |
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| Ray O'Hara... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:53 pm |
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Guest
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"tankfixer" <paul.carrier at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.255c0175fa8a7a3a8be at (no spam) news.bytemine.net...
[quote]In article <hcsqjt$qmg$1 at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org>, raymond-
ohara at (no spam) hotmail.com says...
"Frogwatch" <ohara5.0 at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:43d1c157-46f4-4d25-aadd-7ef7170f4920 at (no spam) j19g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 4, 2:32 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <raymond-oh... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
"Frogwatch" <ohara... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272 at (no spam) v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com...
My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to
know
how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have anything to do
with CNC) from an entire career spent working at IBM followed by
another career spent working at a university machine shop and also
working as a policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at
making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people (us
science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see him aging and
resting his eyes more every year and I know somethign will suddenly
happen to him without any notice.
When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of knowledge
and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing little to
replace such people and the new guys just do not have the store of
odd
useful things in their heads. How on earth can we save such useful
skills?
It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be to
somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful form
than
writing but how?
When I tell him something I want to have done, he always says "You
know you're crazy" to which I reply 'Yeah, but I know YOU can do it"
and he laughs and sure enough a few days later he has an answer.
Somehow, my problem must trigger things stored in the back of his
mind
from 40 years ago that have not been used since then and he recalls
it. Is there some way we can preserve this?
We need some way to download people's memories and then use keywords
and key concepts to retrieve the related info. Not as good as having
the person to do it but at least it would not be entirely lost.
no one knows how to build a pyramid anymore either. the eath keeps
spinning.
We do not need pyramids, we do need skilled toolmakers
======================================================================
stores are full of tools.
Where do they come from ?
The tool fairy ?
[/quote]
machines. these things called computers do the hard work.
they aren't hand forged anymore. |
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| Ray O'Hara... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:58 pm |
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Guest
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"Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthicum at (no spam) earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:2d12a365-70ed-4d3f-b46e-445da0ef5c7c at (no spam) 31g2000vbf.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 5, 1:20 am, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" <atlas-
bug... at (no spam) invalid.invalid> wrote:
[quote]In article
MPG.255c0175fa8a7a3a... at (no spam) news.bytemine.n
et>,
tankfixer <paul.carr... at (no spam) gmail.com
wrote:
In article <hcsqjt$qm... at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org>, raymond-
oh... at (no spam) hotmail.com says...
"Frogwatch" <ohara... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:43d1c157-46f4-4d25-aadd-7ef7170f4920 at (no spam) j19g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 4, 2:32 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <raymond-oh... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
"Frogwatch" <ohara... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272 at (no spam) v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com...
My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to
know
how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have anything to
do
with CNC) from an entire career spent working at IBM followed by
another career spent working at a university machine shop and also
working as a policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at
making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people (us
science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see him aging
and
resting his eyes more every year and I know somethign will
suddenly
happen to him without any notice.
When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of
knowledge
and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing little to
replace such people and the new guys just do not have the store of
odd
useful things in their heads. How on earth can we save such useful
skills?
It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be to
somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful form
than
writing but how?
When I tell him something I want to have done, he always says "You
know you're crazy" to which I reply 'Yeah, but I know YOU can do
it"
and he laughs and sure enough a few days later he has an answer.
Somehow, my problem must trigger things stored in the back of his
mind
from 40 years ago that have not been used since then and he
recalls
it. Is there some way we can preserve this?
We need some way to download people's memories and then use
keywords
and key concepts to retrieve the related info. Not as good as
having
the person to do it but at least it would not be entirely lost.
no one knows how to build a pyramid anymore either. the eath keeps
spinning.
We do not need pyramids, we do need skilled toolmakers
======================================================================
stores are full of tools.
Where do they come from ?
The tool fairy ?
China
computers have replaced machinists.
and the pyramid architects were very skilled craftsmen.
new times and new methods. that's all.
[/quote]
One should know what one is talking about before making such a
statement
http://www.salaryexpert.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=browse.Tool-and-Die-Maker-salary-data-details&PositionId=4086&CityId=300
=========================================================================
They are not hand forged Jack.
cutting machines run by computers get them to tolerances undreamed of.
http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2006/04/how_hand_tools_are_made.html |
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| Ray O'Hara... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:04 pm |
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Guest
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"tankfixer" <paul.carrier at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.255c8caab97c6d1a8c2 at (no spam) news.bytemine.net...
[quote]In article <atlas-bugged-B8DCD6.22201504112009 at (no spam) aries.ka.weretis.net>,
atlas-bugged at (no spam) invalid.invalid says...
In article
MPG.255c0175fa8a7a3a8be at (no spam) news.bytemine.n
et>,
tankfixer <paul.carrier at (no spam) gmail.com
wrote:
In article <hcsqjt$qmg$1 at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org>, raymond-
ohara at (no spam) hotmail.com says...
"Frogwatch" <ohara5.0 at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:43d1c157-46f4-4d25-aadd-7ef7170f4920 at (no spam) j19g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 4, 2:32 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <raymond-oh... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
"Frogwatch" <ohara... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272 at (no spam) v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com...
My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to
know
how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have anything to
do
with CNC) from an entire career spent working at IBM followed by
another career spent working at a university machine shop and
also
working as a policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill
at
making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people (us
science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see him aging
and
resting his eyes more every year and I know somethign will
suddenly
happen to him without any notice.
When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of
knowledge
and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing little to
replace such people and the new guys just do not have the store
of odd
useful things in their heads. How on earth can we save such
useful
skills?
It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be
to
somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful form
than
writing but how?
When I tell him something I want to have done, he always says
"You
know you're crazy" to which I reply 'Yeah, but I know YOU can do
it"
and he laughs and sure enough a few days later he has an answer.
Somehow, my problem must trigger things stored in the back of his
mind
from 40 years ago that have not been used since then and he
recalls
it. Is there some way we can preserve this?
We need some way to download people's memories and then use
keywords
and key concepts to retrieve the related info. Not as good as
having
the person to do it but at least it would not be entirely lost.
no one knows how to build a pyramid anymore either. the eath keeps
spinning.
We do not need pyramids, we do need skilled toolmakers
======================================================================
stores are full of tools.
Where do they come from ?
The tool fairy ?
China
I know this.
Our friend may be unaware of it.
[/quote]
as to unaware. hand tools are made here.
Craftsman runs TV ads showing how Chinese workers covet the American made
tools
http://www.stillmadeinusa.com/tools.html
Most Craftsman and Stanley/B&D tools are made here. |
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| Frogwatch... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:05 pm |
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Guest
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On Nov 5, 11:52 pm, Fred J. McCall <fjmcc... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]"Ray O'Hara" <raymond-oh... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
:
:"Fred J. McCall" <fjmcc... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
:news:dd37f5hqr82gv45qdb967g9r8be24fv2kk at (no spam) 4ax.com...
:> "Ray O'Hara" <raymond-oh... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
:
:> ::> :"tankfixer" <paul.carr... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
:> :news:MPG.255c0175fa8a7a3a8be at (no spam) news.bytemine.net...
:> :
:> :> Where do they come from ?
:> :> The tool fairy ?
:> :
:> :machines. these things called computers do the hard work.
:> :they aren't hand forged anymore.
:> :
:
:> No, the guy who builds the original article (usually by hand) does the
:> hard work. That's followed by the hard work of telling the computer
:> how to build what you want.
:
:> You've no experience at all with how this stuff works, do you?
:
:
: its all done with machines. there is no need for a mock-up;
:CADCAM Fred.
:
I repeat. You've no experience at all with how this stuff works, do
you?
--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson
[/quote]
Ray:
No "mock-ups"? Are you kidding? CNC enables better "mock-ups" before
actually going thru the trouble of cutting real metal (or plastic or
composite etc). There are materials specifically made to be used to
be easily machined into mock-ups to ensure fit and form before the
final CNC code is written.
However, for one-of-a-kind projects, CNC is a waste of time unless the
project requires complicated moves. Here is a good example; we are
building a new x-ray detector. The body is simply a stainless block
with a cylinder bored in it and a hole in the side and will be made by
hand. It will have a closely fitting sleeve of Macor made by hand.
The detector "window" has numerous O-80 threaded holes and a peculiar
triangular knife edge. It could be made by hand but the numerous tiny
threaded holes and knife edge make it better for CNC.
A good machinist will easily be able to determine if CNC or hand
making is better. A good designer will make it easy for the machinist
to determine this. I've noticed that synergy between the designer and
machinist is very important |
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| ... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:37 pm |
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Guest
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"Roger Conroy" <rogerconroy at (no spam) nospam.hotmail.com> writes:
[quote]"tankfixer" <paul.carrier at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.255c024f23d66e278bf at (no spam) news.bytemine.net...
In article <MPG.255bbf9c81e1cec098993f at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org>,
mborgerson at (no spam) comcast.net says...
In article <df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272
at (no spam) v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, ohara5.0 at (no spam) mindspring.com says...
My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to know
how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have anything to do
with CNC) from an entire career spent working at IBM followed by
another career spent working at a university machine shop and also
working as a policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at
making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people (us
science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see him aging and
resting his eyes more every year and I know somethign will suddenly
happen to him without any notice.
When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of knowledge
and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing little to
replace such people and the new guys just do not have the store of odd
useful things in their heads. How on earth can we save such useful
skills?
The classic way to maintain such knowlege is the apprenticeship system.
Can you assign a worker to spend the next year or two with your
machinist? That system worked out well in a small company I used
to work for. We had an apprentice machinist who worked with our
senior guy for several years before the older man retired. I
was sort of an apprentice to my boss in the area of analog electronics.
I was a decent programmer and digital designer, but had only basic
analog electronics. He worked me through from simple to more
complex circuits. Given his personality, there was a lot of yelling
involved at times----but I learned a lot that way.
It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be to
somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful form than
writing but how?
Other than the Vulcan Mind Meld, an apprentice may be the best way.
Most really good technicians don't seem to mind teaching the next
generation---if you give them the time and resources.
Unfortunately our society too often says that people who make things
with their hands are somehow less worthy of respect..
I've heard that in Japan the Emperor's budget pays subsidies for aprentices
of the ancient arts such as sword making and that the master craftsmen are
very highly regarded. Perhaps we gaijin could pick up a lesson or two from
them.
[/quote]
Yes, that is true. Many traditional arts are classified as important
cultural activities, and their master craftsmen are classified as
national treasures. It wasn't always so---I remember vaguely that at
some time in the 1950's or 60's the impressive temple at Nikko required
renovations and it took perhaps a decade to train enough apprentices to
handle some of the lowlier tasks involved. Since then much more emphasis
has been placed in Japanese society (by redistribution, I mean) on
maintaining a core of specialists in the arts, especially those required
to maintain the existing legion of national artifacts of tourist
interest, such as architecture. The same isn't the case for things not
related to the emperor or his family Shinto, so many arts related to
traditional clothing do die out (kimono seamsters/seamstresses and
painters earn a pittance, for example, and generally give up and take
other jobs to earn a living). It's probably true that if there's money
in it, and the government keeps its grubby hands away, there will be
people found to do those jobs. God knows there are enough interested
foreigners in Japan learning these things... |
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| ... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:46 pm |
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Guest
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Eugene Griessel <eugene at (no spam) dynagen.co.za> writes:
[quote]On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 10:57:30 GMT, "La N" <nilita2004NOSPAM at (no spam) yahoo.com
wrote:
Roger Conroy wrote:
"tankfixer" <paul.carrier at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.255c024f23d66e278bf at (no spam) news.bytemine.net...
In article <MPG.255bbf9c81e1cec098993f at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org>,
mborgerson at (no spam) comcast.net says...
In article <df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272
at (no spam) v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, ohara5.0 at (no spam) mindspring.com says...
decades. These men are notorious for the stringent criteria they
apply to potential appies! I know of one lady potter (she already had
a fine arts degree and had being throwing pots for years) who went and
"worked" with one - to learn his skills. He used her like a slave,
basically, and did not pay her at all! All part of learnng the craft.
[/quote]
That's the truth. Sadly however, it is less and less possible for people
to make the necessary sacrifices and remain able to support
themselves. The Japanese social welfare system is extracting more money
from individuals than ever before, and opportunity to study under a
master craftsman or not, there are simply very few who can afford to go
into such tutelage these days. NGO's do arise who try to subsidize such
people, leading to other problems, as you can imagine. It takes very
strong and determined individuals indeed: one follower of an old but
able Aikido shihan drives a taxi just so that he can regulate his time
to follow his teacher around wherever he goes. |
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| Fred J. McCall... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:46 pm |
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Guest
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"Ray O'Hara" <raymond-ohara at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
:
:"tankfixer" <paul.carrier at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
:news:MPG.255c0175fa8a7a3a8be at (no spam) news.bytemine.net...
:> In article <hcsqjt$qmg$1 at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org>, raymond-
:> ohara at (no spam) hotmail.com says...
:>>
:>> "Frogwatch" <ohara5.0 at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message
:>> news:43d1c157-46f4-4d25-aadd-7ef7170f4920 at (no spam) j19g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
:>> On Nov 4, 2:32 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <raymond-oh... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
:>> > "Frogwatch" <ohara... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message
:>> >
:>> > news:df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272 at (no spam) v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com...
:>> >
:>> >
:>> >
:>> > > My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to
:>> > > know
:>> > > how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have anything to do
:>> > > with CNC) from an entire career spent working at IBM followed by
:>> > > another career spent working at a university machine shop and also
:>> > > working as a policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at
:>> > > making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people (us
:>> > > science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see him aging and
:>> > > resting his eyes more every year and I know somethign will suddenly
:>> > > happen to him without any notice.
:>> > > When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of knowledge
:>> > > and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing little to
:>> > > replace such people and the new guys just do not have the store of
:>> > > odd
:>> > > useful things in their heads. How on earth can we save such useful
:>> > > skills?
:>> > > It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be to
:>> > > somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful form
:>> > > than
:>> > > writing but how?
:>> > > When I tell him something I want to have done, he always says "You
:>> > > know you're crazy" to which I reply 'Yeah, but I know YOU can do it"
:>> > > and he laughs and sure enough a few days later he has an answer.
:>> > > Somehow, my problem must trigger things stored in the back of his
:>> > > mind
:>> > > from 40 years ago that have not been used since then and he recalls
:>> > > it. Is there some way we can preserve this?
:>> > > We need some way to download people's memories and then use keywords
:>> > > and key concepts to retrieve the related info. Not as good as having
:>> > > the person to do it but at least it would not be entirely lost.
:>> >
:>> > no one knows how to build a pyramid anymore either. the eath keeps
:>> > spinning.
:>>
:>> We do not need pyramids, we do need skilled toolmakers
:>>
:>>
:>> ======================================================================
:>>
:>> stores are full of tools.
:>
:> Where do they come from ?
:> The tool fairy ?
:
:machines. these things called computers do the hard work.
:they aren't hand forged anymore.
:
No, the guy who builds the original article (usually by hand) does the
hard work. That's followed by the hard work of telling the computer
how to build what you want.
You've no experience at all with how this stuff works, do you?
--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson |
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| Ray O'Hara... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:04 pm |
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Guest
|
"Fred J. McCall" <fjmccall at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dd37f5hqr82gv45qdb967g9r8be24fv2kk at (no spam) 4ax.com...
[quote]"Ray O'Hara" <raymond-ohara at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
:
:"tankfixer" <paul.carrier at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
:news:MPG.255c0175fa8a7a3a8be at (no spam) news.bytemine.net...
:> In article <hcsqjt$qmg$1 at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org>, raymond-
:> ohara at (no spam) hotmail.com says...
:
:>> "Frogwatch" <ohara5.0 at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message
:
news:43d1c157-46f4-4d25-aadd-7ef7170f4920 at (no spam) j19g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
:>> On Nov 4, 2:32 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <raymond-oh... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
:>> > "Frogwatch" <ohara... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message
:
:
news:df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272 at (no spam) v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com...
:
:
:
:>> > > My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to
:>> > > know
:>> > > how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have anything to
do
:>> > > with CNC) from an entire career spent working at IBM followed by
:>> > > another career spent working at a university machine shop and also
:>> > > working as a policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at
:>> > > making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people (us
:>> > > science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see him aging
and
:>> > > resting his eyes more every year and I know somethign will
suddenly
:>> > > happen to him without any notice.
:>> > > When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of
knowledge
:>> > > and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing little to
:>> > > replace such people and the new guys just do not have the store of
:>> > > odd
:>> > > useful things in their heads. How on earth can we save such useful
:>> > > skills?
:>> > > It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be to
:>> > > somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful form
:>> > > than
:>> > > writing but how?
:>> > > When I tell him something I want to have done, he always says "You
:>> > > know you're crazy" to which I reply 'Yeah, but I know YOU can do
it"
:>> > > and he laughs and sure enough a few days later he has an answer.
:>> > > Somehow, my problem must trigger things stored in the back of his
:>> > > mind
:>> > > from 40 years ago that have not been used since then and he
recalls
:>> > > it. Is there some way we can preserve this?
:>> > > We need some way to download people's memories and then use
keywords
:>> > > and key concepts to retrieve the related info. Not as good as
having
:>> > > the person to do it but at least it would not be entirely lost.
:
:>> > no one knows how to build a pyramid anymore either. the eath keeps
:>> > spinning.
:
:>> We do not need pyramids, we do need skilled toolmakers
:
:
:>> ======================================================================
:
:>> stores are full of tools.
:
:> Where do they come from ?
:> The tool fairy ?
:
:machines. these things called computers do the hard work.
:they aren't hand forged anymore.
:
No, the guy who builds the original article (usually by hand) does the
hard work. That's followed by the hard work of telling the computer
how to build what you want.
You've no experience at all with how this stuff works, do you?
[/quote]
its all done with machines. there is no need for a mock-up;
CADCAM Fred. |
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| tankfixer... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:25 pm |
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Guest
|
In article <IkDIm.7105$6c2.3694 at (no spam) newsfe03.iad>, bberesford at (no spam) cogeco.ca
says...
[quote]
tankfixer wrote:
In article <ucyIm.50611$Db2.2797 at (no spam) edtnps83>, nilita2004NOSPAM at (no spam) yahoo.com
says...
Roger Conroy wrote:
"tankfixer" <paul.carrier at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.255c024f23d66e278bf at (no spam) news.bytemine.net...
In article <MPG.255bbf9c81e1cec098993f at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org>,
mborgerson at (no spam) comcast.net says...
In article <df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272
at (no spam) v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, ohara5.0 at (no spam) mindspring.com says...
My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to
know how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have
anything to do with CNC) from an entire career spent working at
IBM followed by another career spent working at a university
machine shop and also working as a policeman. Not only do I rely
on him for his skill at making things but I rely on his judgement
concerning people (us science geeks are bad with such people
skills). I see him aging and resting his eyes more every year
and I know somethign will suddenly happen to him without any
notice. When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store
of knowledge and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are
doing little to replace such people and the new guys just do not
have the store of odd useful things in their heads. How on
earth can we save such useful skills?
The classic way to maintain such knowlege is the apprenticeship
system. Can you assign a worker to spend the next year or two with
your machinist? That system worked out well in a small company I
used to work for. We had an apprentice machinist who worked with
our senior guy for several years before the older man retired. I
was sort of an apprentice to my boss in the area of analog
electronics. I was a decent programmer and digital designer, but
had only basic analog electronics. He worked me through from
simple to more complex circuits. Given his personality, there
was a lot of yelling
involved at times----but I learned a lot that way.
It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be
to somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful
form than writing but how?
Other than the Vulcan Mind Meld, an apprentice may be the best
way. Most really good technicians don't seem to mind teaching the
next generation---if you give them the time and resources.
Unfortunately our society too often says that people who make
things with their hands are somehow less worthy of respect..
I've heard that in Japan the Emperor's budget pays subsidies for
aprentices of the ancient arts such as sword making and that the
master craftsmen are very highly regarded. Perhaps we gaijin could
pick up a lesson or two from them.
Strange. In Canada people who make things with hands are usually
members of unions and often make much more money than those who work
in human/social services. Therefore, those who pick up a tool are
deemed to be worth more $$$ than those who help people who are down
and out.
Don't worry, the SEIU union thugs will get to Canada soon and corrupt
those who help people..
As a rule, here in Canada we've found the enemy of working people, is the
Conservatives and their ilk.
[/quote]
If you think unions are in it for working people you are deluded. |
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