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| Roger Conroy... |
 Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:15 am |
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Guest
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"Eugene Griessel" <eugene at (no spam) dynagen.co.za> wrote in message
news:fs15f5t3ige8044v9bvmul3oldq6goeqhu at (no spam) 4ax.com...
[quote]On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 09:36:38 +0200, "Roger Conroy"
rogerconroy at (no spam) nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:
The Hebrew Bible does not mention pyramids at all.
Which is strange - as surely they would have seen the Giza pyramids at
least (which had been standing for quite a while before the alleged
entry of the Israelites to Egypt. Or this could be one more bit of
evidence (which is getting quite compelling) that the Exodus never
happened - or at least nothing like what the bible recounts.
It is well established that the pyramid builders were "tax conscripts" -
Egyptian citizens paying their taxes in the form of labour instead of a
fraction of their crops..
T'was a bit more complex than that - there was a core group of skilled
people who were paid (or at least as paid as one could get in a
cashless society) and in constant employ of the Pyramid Builders Inc.
company. These were the masons, the architects, etc. The vast
majority of the labourers were either seasonally employed (when they
were not farming) or corvee labour. However there is some compelling
evidence that the latter option was neither popular with the labourers
nor the builders. Fascinating subject all round - went and listened
to old Zahi Hawass when he was here last year(?) although he
concentrated mainly on the new finds and relegated the pyramids to a
footnote in his lecture.
Eugene L Griessel
The young have aspirations that never come to pass.
The old have reminiscences of what never happened.
- I post only from Sci.Military.Naval -
[/quote]
Hawass is fascinating! I've never been to Egypt but I've seen him in many
National Geographic TV shows.
Yup "corvee" is the word I was looking for! |
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| Jack Linthicum... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:29 am |
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Guest
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On Nov 5, 1:20 am, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" <atlas-
bug... at (no spam) invalid.invalid> wrote:
[quote]In article
MPG.255c0175fa8a7a3a... at (no spam) news.bytemine.n
et>,
tankfixer <paul.carr... at (no spam) gmail.com
wrote:
In article <hcsqjt$qm... at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org>, raymond-
oh... at (no spam) hotmail.com says...
"Frogwatch" <ohara... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:43d1c157-46f4-4d25-aadd-7ef7170f4920 at (no spam) j19g2000yqk.googlegroups.com....
On Nov 4, 2:32 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <raymond-oh... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
"Frogwatch" <ohara... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272 at (no spam) v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com...
My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to know
how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have anything to do
with CNC) from an entire career spent working at IBM followed by
another career spent working at a university machine shop and also
working as a policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at
making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people (us
science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see him aging and
resting his eyes more every year and I know somethign will suddenly
happen to him without any notice.
When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of knowledge
and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing little to
replace such people and the new guys just do not have the store of odd
useful things in their heads. How on earth can we save such useful
skills?
It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be to
somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful form than
writing but how?
When I tell him something I want to have done, he always says "You
know you're crazy" to which I reply 'Yeah, but I know YOU can do it"
and he laughs and sure enough a few days later he has an answer.
Somehow, my problem must trigger things stored in the back of his mind
from 40 years ago that have not been used since then and he recalls
it. Is there some way we can preserve this?
We need some way to download people's memories and then use keywords
and key concepts to retrieve the related info. Not as good as having
the person to do it but at least it would not be entirely lost.
no one knows how to build a pyramid anymore either. the eath keeps
spinning.
We do not need pyramids, we do need skilled toolmakers
=====================================================================
stores are full of tools.
Where do they come from ?
The tool fairy ?
China
computers have replaced machinists.
and the pyramid architects were very skilled craftsmen.
new times and new methods. that's all.
[/quote]
One should know what one is talking about before making such a
statement
http://www.salaryexpert.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=browse.Tool-and-Die-Maker-salary-data-details&PositionId=4086&CityId=300 |
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| La N... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:57 am |
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Guest
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Roger Conroy wrote:
[quote]"tankfixer" <paul.carrier at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.255c024f23d66e278bf at (no spam) news.bytemine.net...
In article <MPG.255bbf9c81e1cec098993f at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org>,
mborgerson at (no spam) comcast.net says...
In article <df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272
at (no spam) v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, ohara5.0 at (no spam) mindspring.com says...
My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to
know how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have
anything to do with CNC) from an entire career spent working at
IBM followed by another career spent working at a university
machine shop and also working as a policeman. Not only do I rely
on him for his skill at making things but I rely on his judgement
concerning people (us science geeks are bad with such people
skills). I see him aging and resting his eyes more every year and
I know somethign will suddenly happen to him without any notice.
When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of
knowledge and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing
little to replace such people and the new guys just do not have
the store of odd useful things in their heads. How on earth can
we save such useful skills?
The classic way to maintain such knowlege is the apprenticeship
system. Can you assign a worker to spend the next year or two with
your machinist? That system worked out well in a small company I
used to work for. We had an apprentice machinist who worked with our
senior guy for several years before the older man retired. I
was sort of an apprentice to my boss in the area of analog
electronics. I was a decent programmer and digital designer, but
had only basic analog electronics. He worked me through from
simple to more complex circuits. Given his personality, there was a lot
of yelling
involved at times----but I learned a lot that way.
It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be to
somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful form
than writing but how?
Other than the Vulcan Mind Meld, an apprentice may be the best way.
Most really good technicians don't seem to mind teaching the next
generation---if you give them the time and resources.
Unfortunately our society too often says that people who make things
with their hands are somehow less worthy of respect..
I've heard that in Japan the Emperor's budget pays subsidies for
aprentices of the ancient arts such as sword making and that the
master craftsmen are very highly regarded. Perhaps we gaijin could
pick up a lesson or two from them.
[/quote]
Strange. In Canada people who make things with hands are usually members of
unions and often make much more money than those who work in human/social
services. Therefore, those who pick up a tool are deemed to be worth more
$$$ than those who help people who are down and out.
- nilita |
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| Frogwatch... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:24 am |
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Guest
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On Nov 5, 10:54 am, "La N" <nilita2004NOS... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
[quote]Eugene Griessel wrote:
On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 10:57:30 GMT, "La N" <nilita2004NOS... at (no spam) yahoo.com
wrote:
Roger Conroy wrote:
"tankfixer" <paul.carr... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.255c024f23d66e278bf at (no spam) news.bytemine.net...
In article <MPG.255bbf9c81e1cec0989... at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org>,
mborger... at (no spam) comcast.net says...
In article <df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272
at (no spam) v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, ohara... at (no spam) mindspring.com says...
My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to
know how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have
anything to do with CNC) from an entire career spent working at
IBM followed by another career spent working at a university
machine shop and also working as a policeman. Not only do I rely
on him for his skill at making things but I rely on his judgement
concerning people (us science geeks are bad with such people
skills). I see him aging and resting his eyes more every year
and I know somethign will suddenly happen to him without any
notice. When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store
of knowledge and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are
doing little to replace such people and the new guys just do not
have the store of odd useful things in their heads. How on
earth can we save such useful skills?
The classic way to maintain such knowlege is the apprenticeship
system. Can you assign a worker to spend the next year or two with
your machinist? That system worked out well in a small company I
used to work for. We had an apprentice machinist who worked with
our senior guy for several years before the older man retired. I
was sort of an apprentice to my boss in the area of analog
electronics. I was a decent programmer and digital designer, but
had only basic analog electronics. He worked me through from
simple to more complex circuits. Given his personality, there
was a lot of yelling
involved at times----but I learned a lot that way.
It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be
to somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful
form than writing but how?
Other than the Vulcan Mind Meld, an apprentice may be the best
way. Most really good technicians don't seem to mind teaching the
next generation---if you give them the time and resources.
Unfortunately our society too often says that people who make
things with their hands are somehow less worthy of respect..
I've heard that in Japan the Emperor's budget pays subsidies for
aprentices of the ancient arts such as sword making and that the
master craftsmen are very highly regarded. Perhaps we gaijin could
pick up a lesson or two from them.
Strange. In Canada people who make things with hands are usually
members of unions and often make much more money than those who work
in human/social services. Therefore, those who pick up a tool are
deemed to be worth more $$$ than those who help people who are down
and out.
It is thus in most places - you might pay the plumber more than a
doctor but you would not want to do his job and you sneer at those who
do!
I don't begrudge their (tradesmen) wages at all. I was just stymied to hear
there are those who dont't believe think they make a decent wage. It just
bothers me to think that tool handlers are valued more in $ocioeconomic
term$ than those who work with people - whether it be teachers, social
workers, child care workers, etc.
- nilita
[/quote]
My machinist is off today for an eye operation (glaucoma) and another
employee told me he is not 75, he is 77, YIKES.
Last year, we needed to make some slots in something .003" wide and
the thinnest slitting saws you can normally buy are .006" thick. I
finally found a company in Syracuse, NY selling slitting saws .003"
thick and called them. I got an old German guy who refused to sell
them to me because he said "You'll break them". He refused to sell
them until he talked to our old machinist and was convinced he knew
what he was doing.
Ten years ago when we started selling our product, we were using a
borrowed lathe and mill that were made in the early 40s. The
machinist was getting extreme tolerances out of these old worn out
machines simply because he knew how. When we licensed the technology
to a big company, they sent a machinist down to see how we were making
these things. When he saw these old machines and how it was being
done his jaw dropped in shock. Now, then years later they still talk
about that.
I tell the machinist that when he decides he cannot work anymore, I'll
pay him to sit in a lawn chair with a glass of iced tea and order
people around. |
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| tankfixer... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:18 am |
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Guest
|
In article <ucyIm.50611$Db2.2797 at (no spam) edtnps83>, nilita2004NOSPAM at (no spam) yahoo.com
says...
[quote]
Roger Conroy wrote:
"tankfixer" <paul.carrier at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.255c024f23d66e278bf at (no spam) news.bytemine.net...
In article <MPG.255bbf9c81e1cec098993f at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org>,
mborgerson at (no spam) comcast.net says...
In article <df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272
at (no spam) v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, ohara5.0 at (no spam) mindspring.com says...
My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to
know how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have
anything to do with CNC) from an entire career spent working at
IBM followed by another career spent working at a university
machine shop and also working as a policeman. Not only do I rely
on him for his skill at making things but I rely on his judgement
concerning people (us science geeks are bad with such people
skills). I see him aging and resting his eyes more every year and
I know somethign will suddenly happen to him without any notice.
When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of
knowledge and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing
little to replace such people and the new guys just do not have
the store of odd useful things in their heads. How on earth can
we save such useful skills?
The classic way to maintain such knowlege is the apprenticeship
system. Can you assign a worker to spend the next year or two with
your machinist? That system worked out well in a small company I
used to work for. We had an apprentice machinist who worked with our
senior guy for several years before the older man retired. I
was sort of an apprentice to my boss in the area of analog
electronics. I was a decent programmer and digital designer, but
had only basic analog electronics. He worked me through from
simple to more complex circuits. Given his personality, there was a lot
of yelling
involved at times----but I learned a lot that way.
It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be to
somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful form
than writing but how?
Other than the Vulcan Mind Meld, an apprentice may be the best way.
Most really good technicians don't seem to mind teaching the next
generation---if you give them the time and resources.
Unfortunately our society too often says that people who make things
with their hands are somehow less worthy of respect..
I've heard that in Japan the Emperor's budget pays subsidies for
aprentices of the ancient arts such as sword making and that the
master craftsmen are very highly regarded. Perhaps we gaijin could
pick up a lesson or two from them.
Strange. In Canada people who make things with hands are usually members of
unions and often make much more money than those who work in human/social
services. Therefore, those who pick up a tool are deemed to be worth more
$$$ than those who help people who are down and out.
[/quote]
Don't worry, the SEIU union thugs will get to Canada soon and corrupt
those who help people.. |
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| tankfixer... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:18 am |
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Guest
|
In article <atlas-bugged-B8DCD6.22201504112009 at (no spam) aries.ka.weretis.net>,
atlas-bugged at (no spam) invalid.invalid says...
[quote]
In article
MPG.255c0175fa8a7a3a8be at (no spam) news.bytemine.n
et>,
tankfixer <paul.carrier at (no spam) gmail.com
wrote:
In article <hcsqjt$qmg$1 at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org>, raymond-
ohara at (no spam) hotmail.com says...
"Frogwatch" <ohara5.0 at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:43d1c157-46f4-4d25-aadd-7ef7170f4920 at (no spam) j19g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 4, 2:32 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <raymond-oh... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
"Frogwatch" <ohara... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272 at (no spam) v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com...
My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to know
how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have anything to do
with CNC) from an entire career spent working at IBM followed by
another career spent working at a university machine shop and also
working as a policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at
making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people (us
science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see him aging and
resting his eyes more every year and I know somethign will suddenly
happen to him without any notice.
When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of knowledge
and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing little to
replace such people and the new guys just do not have the store of odd
useful things in their heads. How on earth can we save such useful
skills?
It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be to
somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful form than
writing but how?
When I tell him something I want to have done, he always says "You
know you're crazy" to which I reply 'Yeah, but I know YOU can do it"
and he laughs and sure enough a few days later he has an answer.
Somehow, my problem must trigger things stored in the back of his mind
from 40 years ago that have not been used since then and he recalls
it. Is there some way we can preserve this?
We need some way to download people's memories and then use keywords
and key concepts to retrieve the related info. Not as good as having
the person to do it but at least it would not be entirely lost.
no one knows how to build a pyramid anymore either. the eath keeps
spinning.
We do not need pyramids, we do need skilled toolmakers
======================================================================
stores are full of tools.
Where do they come from ?
The tool fairy ?
China
[/quote]
I know this.
Our friend may be unaware of it. |
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| Eugene Griessel... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:28 am |
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Guest
|
On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 07:18:37 -0800, tankfixer <paul.carrier at (no spam) gmail.com>
wrote:
[quote]In article <atlas-bugged-B8DCD6.22201504112009 at (no spam) aries.ka.weretis.net>,
atlas-bugged at (no spam) invalid.invalid says...
In article
MPG.255c0175fa8a7a3a8be at (no spam) news.bytemine.n
et>,
tankfixer <paul.carrier at (no spam) gmail.com
wrote:
In article <hcsqjt$qmg$1 at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org>, raymond-
ohara at (no spam) hotmail.com says...
"Frogwatch" <ohara5.0 at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:43d1c157-46f4-4d25-aadd-7ef7170f4920 at (no spam) j19g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 4, 2:32 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <raymond-oh... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
"Frogwatch" <ohara... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272 at (no spam) v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com...
My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to know
how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have anything to do
with CNC) from an entire career spent working at IBM followed by
another career spent working at a university machine shop and also
working as a policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at
making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people (us
science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see him aging and
resting his eyes more every year and I know somethign will suddenly
happen to him without any notice.
When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of knowledge
and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing little to
replace such people and the new guys just do not have the store of odd
useful things in their heads. How on earth can we save such useful
skills?
It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be to
somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful form than
writing but how?
When I tell him something I want to have done, he always says "You
know you're crazy" to which I reply 'Yeah, but I know YOU can do it"
and he laughs and sure enough a few days later he has an answer.
Somehow, my problem must trigger things stored in the back of his mind
from 40 years ago that have not been used since then and he recalls
it. Is there some way we can preserve this?
We need some way to download people's memories and then use keywords
and key concepts to retrieve the related info. Not as good as having
the person to do it but at least it would not be entirely lost.
no one knows how to build a pyramid anymore either. the eath keeps
spinning.
We do not need pyramids, we do need skilled toolmakers
======================================================================
stores are full of tools.
Where do they come from ?
The tool fairy ?
China
I know this.
Our friend may be unaware of it.
[/quote]
I suggest you look up what a toolmaker does - it is a highly
specialised trade. These are the people who are largely responsible
for the machines, jigs, etc. that turn out the tools your store is
full of.
Eugene L Griessel
The probability of someone watching you is proportional to the
stupidity of your action.
- I post only from Sci.Military.Naval - |
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| Eugene Griessel... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:30 am |
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Guest
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On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 11:15:35 +0200, "Roger Conroy"
<rogerconroy at (no spam) nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:
[quote]
"Eugene Griessel" <eugene at (no spam) dynagen.co.za> wrote in message
news:fs15f5t3ige8044v9bvmul3oldq6goeqhu at (no spam) 4ax.com...
On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 09:36:38 +0200, "Roger Conroy"
rogerconroy at (no spam) nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:
The Hebrew Bible does not mention pyramids at all.
Which is strange - as surely they would have seen the Giza pyramids at
least (which had been standing for quite a while before the alleged
entry of the Israelites to Egypt. Or this could be one more bit of
evidence (which is getting quite compelling) that the Exodus never
happened - or at least nothing like what the bible recounts.
It is well established that the pyramid builders were "tax conscripts" -
Egyptian citizens paying their taxes in the form of labour instead of a
fraction of their crops..
T'was a bit more complex than that - there was a core group of skilled
people who were paid (or at least as paid as one could get in a
cashless society) and in constant employ of the Pyramid Builders Inc.
company. These were the masons, the architects, etc. The vast
majority of the labourers were either seasonally employed (when they
were not farming) or corvee labour. However there is some compelling
evidence that the latter option was neither popular with the labourers
nor the builders. Fascinating subject all round - went and listened
to old Zahi Hawass when he was here last year(?) although he
concentrated mainly on the new finds and relegated the pyramids to a
footnote in his lecture.
Eugene L Griessel
The young have aspirations that never come to pass.
The old have reminiscences of what never happened.
- I post only from Sci.Military.Naval -
Hawass is fascinating! I've never been to Egypt but I've seen him in many
National Geographic TV shows.
Yup "corvee" is the word I was looking for!
[/quote]
One of the things he alluded to was just how many new tombs are found
due to broken sewage pipes! And often the pipes have leaked into
these places so a lot of the excavating gets done with the rich ripe
smell of shit hanging around. Who said being an archaeologist was all
roses!
He is a very compelling speaker - got the gift of the gab!
Eugene L Griessel
The probability of someone watching you is proportional to the
stupidity of your action.
- I post only from Sci.Military.Naval - |
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| Eugene Griessel... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:30 am |
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Guest
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On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 10:57:30 GMT, "La N" <nilita2004NOSPAM at (no spam) yahoo.com>
wrote:
[quote]Roger Conroy wrote:
"tankfixer" <paul.carrier at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.255c024f23d66e278bf at (no spam) news.bytemine.net...
In article <MPG.255bbf9c81e1cec098993f at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org>,
mborgerson at (no spam) comcast.net says...
In article <df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272
at (no spam) v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, ohara5.0 at (no spam) mindspring.com says...
My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to
know how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have
anything to do with CNC) from an entire career spent working at
IBM followed by another career spent working at a university
machine shop and also working as a policeman. Not only do I rely
on him for his skill at making things but I rely on his judgement
concerning people (us science geeks are bad with such people
skills). I see him aging and resting his eyes more every year and
I know somethign will suddenly happen to him without any notice.
When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of
knowledge and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing
little to replace such people and the new guys just do not have
the store of odd useful things in their heads. How on earth can
we save such useful skills?
The classic way to maintain such knowlege is the apprenticeship
system. Can you assign a worker to spend the next year or two with
your machinist? That system worked out well in a small company I
used to work for. We had an apprentice machinist who worked with our
senior guy for several years before the older man retired. I
was sort of an apprentice to my boss in the area of analog
electronics. I was a decent programmer and digital designer, but
had only basic analog electronics. He worked me through from
simple to more complex circuits. Given his personality, there was a lot
of yelling
involved at times----but I learned a lot that way.
It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be to
somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful form
than writing but how?
Other than the Vulcan Mind Meld, an apprentice may be the best way.
Most really good technicians don't seem to mind teaching the next
generation---if you give them the time and resources.
Unfortunately our society too often says that people who make things
with their hands are somehow less worthy of respect..
I've heard that in Japan the Emperor's budget pays subsidies for
aprentices of the ancient arts such as sword making and that the
master craftsmen are very highly regarded. Perhaps we gaijin could
pick up a lesson or two from them.
Strange. In Canada people who make things with hands are usually members of
unions and often make much more money than those who work in human/social
services. Therefore, those who pick up a tool are deemed to be worth more
$$$ than those who help people who are down and out.
[/quote]
It is thus in most places - you might pay the plumber more than a
doctor but you would not want to do his job and you sneer at those who
do!
One of the issues in this thread is, to sum up, craftsmen versus
artisans. How do you define, in this context, a "craftsman"? I
suppose one definition would be "that artisan that other artisans gaze
at in admiration when he is at work". A craftsman, to me, appears to
be at one with what he does. He extracts the ultimate from his tools
and materials. I well remember when a complicated (and contorted and
convoluted) brass seawater inlet pipe needed replacing. A wizened old
ancient was dispatched from the pipeshop to do the dirty - it took him
half the day to negotiate the engineroom ladder and we awaited, with
trepidation, his imminent demise with every step he took. He hauled
out a battered old folding wooden ruler (the type that chippies use)
and started taking measurements, jotting them down on the back of the
proverbial cigarette packet. We looked at each other and silently
shook our heads. Two days later the pipe was delivered. It fitted
perfectly - even the holes in the flanges lining up perfectly. A
craftsman had been at work. This particular ancient had probably done
a long apprenticeship in one of those dismal and dingy workshops in a
dockyard in England with peanuts for pay. That sort of training is no
longer economically feasible - all appies want to be tradesman like
yesterday and even during their apprenticeship they want a good
salary! In Japan you have what I think is defined as "living cultural
legends" - master craftmen who have laboured at their skills for
decades. These men are notorious for the stringent criteria they
apply to potential appies! I know of one lady potter (she already had
a fine arts degree and had being throwing pots for years) who went and
"worked" with one - to learn his skills. He used her like a slave,
basically, and did not pay her at all! All part of learnng the craft.
Eugene L Griessel
The probability of someone watching you is proportional to the
stupidity of your action.
- I post only from Sci.Military.Naval - |
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| La N... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:54 am |
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Guest
|
Eugene Griessel wrote:
[quote]On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 10:57:30 GMT, "La N" <nilita2004NOSPAM at (no spam) yahoo.com
wrote:
Roger Conroy wrote:
"tankfixer" <paul.carrier at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.255c024f23d66e278bf at (no spam) news.bytemine.net...
In article <MPG.255bbf9c81e1cec098993f at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org>,
mborgerson at (no spam) comcast.net says...
In article <df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272
at (no spam) v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, ohara5.0 at (no spam) mindspring.com says...
My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to
know how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have
anything to do with CNC) from an entire career spent working at
IBM followed by another career spent working at a university
machine shop and also working as a policeman. Not only do I rely
on him for his skill at making things but I rely on his judgement
concerning people (us science geeks are bad with such people
skills). I see him aging and resting his eyes more every year
and I know somethign will suddenly happen to him without any
notice. When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store
of knowledge and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are
doing little to replace such people and the new guys just do not
have the store of odd useful things in their heads. How on
earth can we save such useful skills?
The classic way to maintain such knowlege is the apprenticeship
system. Can you assign a worker to spend the next year or two with
your machinist? That system worked out well in a small company I
used to work for. We had an apprentice machinist who worked with
our senior guy for several years before the older man retired. I
was sort of an apprentice to my boss in the area of analog
electronics. I was a decent programmer and digital designer, but
had only basic analog electronics. He worked me through from
simple to more complex circuits. Given his personality, there
was a lot of yelling
involved at times----but I learned a lot that way.
It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be
to somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful
form than writing but how?
Other than the Vulcan Mind Meld, an apprentice may be the best
way. Most really good technicians don't seem to mind teaching the
next generation---if you give them the time and resources.
Unfortunately our society too often says that people who make
things with their hands are somehow less worthy of respect..
I've heard that in Japan the Emperor's budget pays subsidies for
aprentices of the ancient arts such as sword making and that the
master craftsmen are very highly regarded. Perhaps we gaijin could
pick up a lesson or two from them.
Strange. In Canada people who make things with hands are usually
members of unions and often make much more money than those who work
in human/social services. Therefore, those who pick up a tool are
deemed to be worth more $$$ than those who help people who are down
and out.
It is thus in most places - you might pay the plumber more than a
doctor but you would not want to do his job and you sneer at those who
do!
[/quote]
I don't begrudge their (tradesmen) wages at all. I was just stymied to hear
there are those who dont't believe think they make a decent wage. It just
bothers me to think that tool handlers are valued more in $ocioeconomic
term$ than those who work with people - whether it be teachers, social
workers, child care workers, etc.
- nilita |
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| Roger Conroy... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:33 am |
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Guest
|
"Eugene Griessel" <eugene at (no spam) dynagen.co.za> wrote in message
news:h395f5lafvmtq21rh85i6ec0mp2jk1965v at (no spam) 4ax.com...
[quote]On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 11:15:35 +0200, "Roger Conroy"
rogerconroy at (no spam) nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:
"Eugene Griessel" <eugene at (no spam) dynagen.co.za> wrote in message
news:fs15f5t3ige8044v9bvmul3oldq6goeqhu at (no spam) 4ax.com...
On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 09:36:38 +0200, "Roger Conroy"
rogerconroy at (no spam) nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:
The Hebrew Bible does not mention pyramids at all.
Which is strange - as surely they would have seen the Giza pyramids at
least (which had been standing for quite a while before the alleged
entry of the Israelites to Egypt. Or this could be one more bit of
evidence (which is getting quite compelling) that the Exodus never
happened - or at least nothing like what the bible recounts.
It is well established that the pyramid builders were "tax conscripts" -
Egyptian citizens paying their taxes in the form of labour instead of a
fraction of their crops..
T'was a bit more complex than that - there was a core group of skilled
people who were paid (or at least as paid as one could get in a
cashless society) and in constant employ of the Pyramid Builders Inc.
company. These were the masons, the architects, etc. The vast
majority of the labourers were either seasonally employed (when they
were not farming) or corvee labour. However there is some compelling
evidence that the latter option was neither popular with the labourers
nor the builders. Fascinating subject all round - went and listened
to old Zahi Hawass when he was here last year(?) although he
concentrated mainly on the new finds and relegated the pyramids to a
footnote in his lecture.
Eugene L Griessel
The young have aspirations that never come to pass.
The old have reminiscences of what never happened.
- I post only from Sci.Military.Naval -
Hawass is fascinating! I've never been to Egypt but I've seen him in many
National Geographic TV shows.
Yup "corvee" is the word I was looking for!
One of the things he alluded to was just how many new tombs are found
due to broken sewage pipes! And often the pipes have leaked into
these places so a lot of the excavating gets done with the rich ripe
smell of shit hanging around. Who said being an archaeologist was all
roses!
He is a very compelling speaker - got the gift of the gab!
Eugene L Griessel
The probability of someone watching you is proportional to the
stupidity of your action.
- I post only from Sci.Military.Naval -
[/quote]
If he ever comes to SA on a public lecture tour I'm buying the first ticket!
I'm still kicking myself for missing Stephen Hawking's lecture. |
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| Jeffrey Hamilton... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:47 am |
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Guest
|
tankfixer wrote:
[quote]In article <ucyIm.50611$Db2.2797 at (no spam) edtnps83>, nilita2004NOSPAM at (no spam) yahoo.com
says...
Roger Conroy wrote:
"tankfixer" <paul.carrier at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.255c024f23d66e278bf at (no spam) news.bytemine.net...
In article <MPG.255bbf9c81e1cec098993f at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org>,
mborgerson at (no spam) comcast.net says...
In article <df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272
at (no spam) v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, ohara5.0 at (no spam) mindspring.com says...
My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to
know how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have
anything to do with CNC) from an entire career spent working at
IBM followed by another career spent working at a university
machine shop and also working as a policeman. Not only do I rely
on him for his skill at making things but I rely on his judgement
concerning people (us science geeks are bad with such people
skills). I see him aging and resting his eyes more every year
and I know somethign will suddenly happen to him without any
notice. When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store
of knowledge and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are
doing little to replace such people and the new guys just do not
have the store of odd useful things in their heads. How on
earth can we save such useful skills?
The classic way to maintain such knowlege is the apprenticeship
system. Can you assign a worker to spend the next year or two with
your machinist? That system worked out well in a small company I
used to work for. We had an apprentice machinist who worked with
our senior guy for several years before the older man retired. I
was sort of an apprentice to my boss in the area of analog
electronics. I was a decent programmer and digital designer, but
had only basic analog electronics. He worked me through from
simple to more complex circuits. Given his personality, there
was a lot of yelling
involved at times----but I learned a lot that way.
It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be
to somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful
form than writing but how?
Other than the Vulcan Mind Meld, an apprentice may be the best
way. Most really good technicians don't seem to mind teaching the
next generation---if you give them the time and resources.
Unfortunately our society too often says that people who make
things with their hands are somehow less worthy of respect..
I've heard that in Japan the Emperor's budget pays subsidies for
aprentices of the ancient arts such as sword making and that the
master craftsmen are very highly regarded. Perhaps we gaijin could
pick up a lesson or two from them.
Strange. In Canada people who make things with hands are usually
members of unions and often make much more money than those who work
in human/social services. Therefore, those who pick up a tool are
deemed to be worth more $$$ than those who help people who are down
and out.
Don't worry, the SEIU union thugs will get to Canada soon and corrupt
those who help people..
[/quote]
As a rule, here in Canada we've found the enemy of working people, is the
Conservatives and their ilk.
cheers.....Jeff |
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| Roger Conroy... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:15 pm |
|
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|
Guest
|
"Eugene Griessel" <eugene at (no spam) dynagen.co.za> wrote in message
news:utc5f5p3qk2irpnju4juob1sd9v8hbvk6u at (no spam) 4ax.com...
[quote]On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 10:57:30 GMT, "La N" <nilita2004NOSPAM at (no spam) yahoo.com
wrote:
Roger Conroy wrote:
"tankfixer" <paul.carrier at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.255c024f23d66e278bf at (no spam) news.bytemine.net...
In article <MPG.255bbf9c81e1cec098993f at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org>,
mborgerson at (no spam) comcast.net says...
In article <df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272
at (no spam) v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, ohara5.0 at (no spam) mindspring.com says...
My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to
know how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have
anything to do with CNC) from an entire career spent working at
IBM followed by another career spent working at a university
machine shop and also working as a policeman. Not only do I rely
on him for his skill at making things but I rely on his judgement
concerning people (us science geeks are bad with such people
skills). I see him aging and resting his eyes more every year and
I know somethign will suddenly happen to him without any notice.
When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of
knowledge and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing
little to replace such people and the new guys just do not have
the store of odd useful things in their heads. How on earth can
we save such useful skills?
The classic way to maintain such knowlege is the apprenticeship
system. Can you assign a worker to spend the next year or two with
your machinist? That system worked out well in a small company I
used to work for. We had an apprentice machinist who worked with our
senior guy for several years before the older man retired. I
was sort of an apprentice to my boss in the area of analog
electronics. I was a decent programmer and digital designer, but
had only basic analog electronics. He worked me through from
simple to more complex circuits. Given his personality, there was a
lot
of yelling
involved at times----but I learned a lot that way.
It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be to
somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful form
than writing but how?
Other than the Vulcan Mind Meld, an apprentice may be the best way.
Most really good technicians don't seem to mind teaching the next
generation---if you give them the time and resources.
Unfortunately our society too often says that people who make things
with their hands are somehow less worthy of respect..
I've heard that in Japan the Emperor's budget pays subsidies for
aprentices of the ancient arts such as sword making and that the
master craftsmen are very highly regarded. Perhaps we gaijin could
pick up a lesson or two from them.
Strange. In Canada people who make things with hands are usually members
of
unions and often make much more money than those who work in human/social
services. Therefore, those who pick up a tool are deemed to be worth more
$$$ than those who help people who are down and out.
It is thus in most places - you might pay the plumber more than a
doctor but you would not want to do his job and you sneer at those who
do!
One of the issues in this thread is, to sum up, craftsmen versus
artisans. How do you define, in this context, a "craftsman"? I
suppose one definition would be "that artisan that other artisans gaze
at in admiration when he is at work". A craftsman, to me, appears to
be at one with what he does. He extracts the ultimate from his tools
and materials. I well remember when a complicated (and contorted and
convoluted) brass seawater inlet pipe needed replacing. A wizened old
ancient was dispatched from the pipeshop to do the dirty - it took him
half the day to negotiate the engineroom ladder and we awaited, with
trepidation, his imminent demise with every step he took. He hauled
out a battered old folding wooden ruler (the type that chippies use)
and started taking measurements, jotting them down on the back of the
proverbial cigarette packet. We looked at each other and silently
shook our heads. Two days later the pipe was delivered. It fitted
perfectly - even the holes in the flanges lining up perfectly. A
craftsman had been at work. This particular ancient had probably done
a long apprenticeship in one of those dismal and dingy workshops in a
dockyard in England with peanuts for pay. That sort of training is no
longer economically feasible - all appies want to be tradesman like
yesterday and even during their apprenticeship they want a good
salary! In Japan you have what I think is defined as "living cultural
legends" - master craftmen who have laboured at their skills for
decades. These men are notorious for the stringent criteria they
apply to potential appies! I know of one lady potter (she already had
a fine arts degree and had being throwing pots for years) who went and
"worked" with one - to learn his skills. He used her like a slave,
basically, and did not pay her at all! All part of learnng the craft.
Eugene L Griessel
The probability of someone watching you is proportional to the
stupidity of your action.
- I post only from Sci.Military.Naval -
[/quote]
A Craftsman is the person who's resignation/retirement/death can ruin your
business. |
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| Eugene Griessel... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:17 pm |
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Guest
|
On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 18:33:09 +0200, "Roger Conroy"
<rogerconroy at (no spam) nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:
[quote]
"Eugene Griessel" <eugene at (no spam) dynagen.co.za> wrote in message
news:h395f5lafvmtq21rh85i6ec0mp2jk1965v at (no spam) 4ax.com...
On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 11:15:35 +0200, "Roger Conroy"
rogerconroy at (no spam) nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:
"Eugene Griessel" <eugene at (no spam) dynagen.co.za> wrote in message
news:fs15f5t3ige8044v9bvmul3oldq6goeqhu at (no spam) 4ax.com...
On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 09:36:38 +0200, "Roger Conroy"
rogerconroy at (no spam) nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:
The Hebrew Bible does not mention pyramids at all.
Which is strange - as surely they would have seen the Giza pyramids at
least (which had been standing for quite a while before the alleged
entry of the Israelites to Egypt. Or this could be one more bit of
evidence (which is getting quite compelling) that the Exodus never
happened - or at least nothing like what the bible recounts.
It is well established that the pyramid builders were "tax conscripts" -
Egyptian citizens paying their taxes in the form of labour instead of a
fraction of their crops..
T'was a bit more complex than that - there was a core group of skilled
people who were paid (or at least as paid as one could get in a
cashless society) and in constant employ of the Pyramid Builders Inc.
company. These were the masons, the architects, etc. The vast
majority of the labourers were either seasonally employed (when they
were not farming) or corvee labour. However there is some compelling
evidence that the latter option was neither popular with the labourers
nor the builders. Fascinating subject all round - went and listened
to old Zahi Hawass when he was here last year(?) although he
concentrated mainly on the new finds and relegated the pyramids to a
footnote in his lecture.
Eugene L Griessel
The young have aspirations that never come to pass.
The old have reminiscences of what never happened.
- I post only from Sci.Military.Naval -
Hawass is fascinating! I've never been to Egypt but I've seen him in many
National Geographic TV shows.
Yup "corvee" is the word I was looking for!
One of the things he alluded to was just how many new tombs are found
due to broken sewage pipes! And often the pipes have leaked into
these places so a lot of the excavating gets done with the rich ripe
smell of shit hanging around. Who said being an archaeologist was all
roses!
He is a very compelling speaker - got the gift of the gab!
Eugene L Griessel
The probability of someone watching you is proportional to the
stupidity of your action.
- I post only from Sci.Military.Naval -
If he ever comes to SA on a public lecture tour I'm buying the first ticket!
[/quote]
Well he filled the Baxter auditorium - I was quite surprised that so
many Capetonians were even mildly interested.
[quote]I'm still kicking myself for missing Stephen Hawking's lecture.
[/quote]
Sorry to be cynical - but don't you mean Stephen Hawking's laptop's
lecture?
Eugene L Griessel
There are three kinds of death in this world. There's heart
death, there's brain death, and there's being off the network.
- I post only from Sci.Military.Naval - |
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| La N... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:27 pm |
|
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|
Guest
|
"Jeffrey Hamilton" <bberesford at (no spam) cogeco.ca> wrote in message
news:IkDIm.7105$6c2.3694 at (no spam) newsfe03.iad...
[quote]tankfixer wrote:
In article <ucyIm.50611$Db2.2797 at (no spam) edtnps83>, nilita2004NOSPAM at (no spam) yahoo.com
says...
Roger Conroy wrote:
"tankfixer" <paul.carrier at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.255c024f23d66e278bf at (no spam) news.bytemine.net...
In article <MPG.255bbf9c81e1cec098993f at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org>,
mborgerson at (no spam) comcast.net says...
In article <df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272
at (no spam) v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, ohara5.0 at (no spam) mindspring.com says...
My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to
know how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have
anything to do with CNC) from an entire career spent working at
IBM followed by another career spent working at a university
machine shop and also working as a policeman. Not only do I rely
on him for his skill at making things but I rely on his judgement
concerning people (us science geeks are bad with such people
skills). I see him aging and resting his eyes more every year
and I know somethign will suddenly happen to him without any
notice. When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store
of knowledge and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are
doing little to replace such people and the new guys just do not
have the store of odd useful things in their heads. How on
earth can we save such useful skills?
The classic way to maintain such knowlege is the apprenticeship
system. Can you assign a worker to spend the next year or two with
your machinist? That system worked out well in a small company I
used to work for. We had an apprentice machinist who worked with
our senior guy for several years before the older man retired. I
was sort of an apprentice to my boss in the area of analog
electronics. I was a decent programmer and digital designer, but
had only basic analog electronics. He worked me through from
simple to more complex circuits. Given his personality, there
was a lot of yelling
involved at times----but I learned a lot that way.
It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be
to somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful
form than writing but how?
Other than the Vulcan Mind Meld, an apprentice may be the best
way. Most really good technicians don't seem to mind teaching the
next generation---if you give them the time and resources.
Unfortunately our society too often says that people who make
things with their hands are somehow less worthy of respect..
I've heard that in Japan the Emperor's budget pays subsidies for
aprentices of the ancient arts such as sword making and that the
master craftsmen are very highly regarded. Perhaps we gaijin could
pick up a lesson or two from them.
Strange. In Canada people who make things with hands are usually
members of unions and often make much more money than those who work
in human/social services. Therefore, those who pick up a tool are
deemed to be worth more $$$ than those who help people who are down
and out.
Don't worry, the SEIU union thugs will get to Canada soon and corrupt
those who help people..
As a rule, here in Canada we've found the enemy of working people, is the
Conservatives and their ilk.
How true.[/quote] |
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