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| Science Forum Index » Logic Forum » EINSTEINIANA AS PERPETUUM MOBILE... |
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| Pentcho Valev... |
 Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:16 pm |
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Guest
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http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SR/barn_pole.html
"These are the props. You own a barn, 40m long, with automatic doors
at either end, that can be opened and closed simultaneously by a
switch. You also have a pole, 80m long, which of course won't fit in
the barn. Now someone takes the pole and tries to run (at nearly the
speed of light) through the barn with the pole horizontal. Special
Relativity (SR) says that a moving object is contracted in the
direction of motion: this is called the Lorentz Contraction. So, if
the pole is set in motion lengthwise, then it will contract in the
reference frame of a stationary observer.....So, as the pole passes
through the barn, there is an instant when it is completely within the
barn. At that instant, you close both doors simultaneously, with your
switch. Of course, you open them again pretty quickly, but at least
momentarily you had the contracted pole shut up in your barn. The
runner emerges from the far door unscathed.....If the doors are kept
shut the rod will obviously smash into the barn door at one end. If
the door withstands this the leading end of the rod will come to rest
in the frame of reference of the stationary observer. There can be no
such thing as a rigid rod in relativity so the trailing end will not
stop immediately and the rod will be compressed beyond the amount it
was Lorentz contracted. If it does not explode under the strain and it
is sufficiently elastic it will come to rest and start to spring back
to its natural shape but since it is too big for the barn the other
end is now going to crash into the back door and the rod will be
trapped in a compressed state inside the barn."
Note that, if the diameter of the rod is equal to the diameter of the
barn's hole, Einsteinians will obtain a twofold decrease in the rod's
volume as well! Essentially without spending any work! Therefore both
the force exerted by the compressed rod on the doors and the work this
(enormous?) force can do for Einsteinians are just free lunch. What a
breathtaking discovery! And yet Einsteinians seem reluctant to develop
the scenario further - what is the magnitude of the force, how much
work can be extracted etc. Students should just imagine first the dull
Newtonian world where the 80m long rod does not want to hide inside
the 40m long barn, then the miraculous Einsteinian world where the rod
would hide even inside a 4 cm long barn, and that is enough. Green
lights appear in students' eyes and the tunes of "Divine Einstein" and
"Yes we all believe in relativity, relativity, relativity" quickly
fill the spacetime.
Pentcho Valev
pvalev at (no spam) yahoo.com |
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| Don Stockbauer... |
| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:06 am |
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Guest
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On Nov 4, 3:45 am, "Peter Webb" <webbfam... at (no spam) DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au>
wrote:
[quote]"Pentcho Valev" <pva... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4ce57f48-4e4d-4dcd-9b82-4f4bc810f025 at (no spam) k17g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SR/barn_pole.html
"These are the props. You own a barn, 40m long, with automatic doors
at either end, that can be opened and closed simultaneously by a
switch. You also have a pole, 80m long, which of course won't fit in
the barn. Now someone takes the pole and tries to run (at nearly the
speed of light) through the barn with the pole horizontal. Special
Relativity (SR) says that a moving object is contracted in the
direction of motion: this is called the Lorentz Contraction. So, if
the pole is set in motion lengthwise, then it will contract in the
reference frame of a stationary observer.....So, as the pole passes
through the barn, there is an instant when it is completely within the
barn. At that instant, you close both doors simultaneously,
"Simultaneously" ?
What does that mean, exactly?
You should learn a little about SR. There is no concept of absolute
simultaniety. Events which appear simultaneous in one frame don't appear
simultaneous in a different reference frame (and indeed may not even appear
simultaneous in the same reference frame, depending upon how you choose to
interpret the word "simultaneous").
If you do learn about SR, you will eventually be able to explain what
happens in this thought experiment from both relevant inertial frames - the
barn's and the pole's reference frames.
Just to whet your appetite to learn SR, an observer in the inertial frame of
the barn could "see" both doors open simultaneously, but from the
perspective of the pole they are not simultaneous and the first door opens
and closes before the second door.
Its really quite simple when you understand the maths, you might like to
think about buying a beginners guide to Relativity. There are many
available, including a very good one by Einstein himself.
If there is anything you don't undertsand in whatever book you buy, feel
free to ask questions and I am sure people will want to help.
HTH, a good luck learning physics!
Peter Webb
[/quote]
Boy, that's telling him.
I'm sure he'll quit these repetitious, false postings now. |
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| Peter Webb... |
| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:45 am |
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Guest
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"Pentcho Valev" <pvalev at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4ce57f48-4e4d-4dcd-9b82-4f4bc810f025 at (no spam) k17g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
[quote]http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SR/barn_pole.html
"These are the props. You own a barn, 40m long, with automatic doors
at either end, that can be opened and closed simultaneously by a
switch. You also have a pole, 80m long, which of course won't fit in
the barn. Now someone takes the pole and tries to run (at nearly the
speed of light) through the barn with the pole horizontal. Special
Relativity (SR) says that a moving object is contracted in the
direction of motion: this is called the Lorentz Contraction. So, if
the pole is set in motion lengthwise, then it will contract in the
reference frame of a stationary observer.....So, as the pole passes
through the barn, there is an instant when it is completely within the
barn. At that instant, you close both doors simultaneously,
[/quote]
"Simultaneously" ?
What does that mean, exactly?
You should learn a little about SR. There is no concept of absolute
simultaniety. Events which appear simultaneous in one frame don't appear
simultaneous in a different reference frame (and indeed may not even appear
simultaneous in the same reference frame, depending upon how you choose to
interpret the word "simultaneous").
If you do learn about SR, you will eventually be able to explain what
happens in this thought experiment from both relevant inertial frames - the
barn's and the pole's reference frames.
Just to whet your appetite to learn SR, an observer in the inertial frame of
the barn could "see" both doors open simultaneously, but from the
perspective of the pole they are not simultaneous and the first door opens
and closes before the second door.
Its really quite simple when you understand the maths, you might like to
think about buying a beginners guide to Relativity. There are many
available, including a very good one by Einstein himself.
If there is anything you don't undertsand in whatever book you buy, feel
free to ask questions and I am sure people will want to help.
HTH, a good luck learning physics!
Peter Webb |
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| John Jones... |
| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:24 pm |
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Guest
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Pentcho Valev wrote:
[quote]http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SR/barn_pole.html
"These are the props. You own a barn, 40m long, with automatic doors
at either end, that can be opened and closed simultaneously by a
switch. You also have a pole, 80m long, which of course won't fit in
the barn. Now someone takes the pole and tries to run (at nearly the
speed of light) through the barn with the pole horizontal. Special
Relativity (SR) says that a moving object is contracted in the
direction of motion: this is called the Lorentz Contraction. So, if
the pole is set in motion lengthwise, then it will contract in the
reference frame of a stationary observer.....So, as the pole passes
through the barn, there is an instant when it is completely within the
barn. At that instant, you close both doors simultaneously, with your
switch. Of course, you open them again pretty quickly, but at least
momentarily you had the contracted pole shut up in your barn. The
runner emerges from the far door unscathed.....If the doors are kept
shut the rod will obviously smash into the barn door at one end. If
the door withstands this the leading end of the rod will come to rest
in the frame of reference of the stationary observer. There can be no
such thing as a rigid rod in relativity so the trailing end will not
stop immediately and the rod will be compressed beyond the amount it
was Lorentz contracted. If it does not explode under the strain and it
is sufficiently elastic it will come to rest and start to spring back
to its natural shape but since it is too big for the barn the other
end is now going to crash into the back door and the rod will be
trapped in a compressed state inside the barn."
Note that, if the diameter of the rod is equal to the diameter of the
barn's hole, Einsteinians will obtain a twofold decrease in the rod's
volume as well! Essentially without spending any work! Therefore both
the force exerted by the compressed rod on the doors and the work this
(enormous?) force can do for Einsteinians are just free lunch. What a
breathtaking discovery! And yet Einsteinians seem reluctant to develop
the scenario further - what is the magnitude of the force, how much
work can be extracted etc. Students should just imagine first the dull
Newtonian world where the 80m long rod does not want to hide inside
the 40m long barn, then the miraculous Einsteinian world where the rod
would hide even inside a 4 cm long barn, and that is enough. Green
lights appear in students' eyes and the tunes of "Divine Einstein" and
"Yes we all believe in relativity, relativity, relativity" quickly
fill the spacetime.
Pentcho Valev
pvalev at (no spam) yahoo.com[/quote] |
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