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| David Nebenzahl... |
 Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:56 pm |
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Guest
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This inspired by the mini-thread in the thread up yonder about HP
DeskJet printers. Actually something of a reverse gloat, along the lines
of "my old printer still works; does yours?".
Got my HP LaserJet 2100M (600 DPI w/PostScript capability) ca. 2000. Not
only is the printer still working perfectly, but I'm still using the
same cartridge I got with it!
Which is a little puzzling; while the printer hasn't exactly been used
in a production environment, I have put plenty of pages through it:
printed out many entire manuals, etc. I'm just waiting for the cartridge
to empty out, but it still hasn't come close. (I even have a 2nd
cartridge I got with the printer, still in its foil package.)
One thing I really don't like about this, and really most HP printers
that I've used, is that it hates to print on the back of printed sheets.
Usually it eats/shreds about half the sheets one tries to print this
way. Yeah, I know, you can get HPs with "duplex" options, but to me,
that's utter bullshit. I remember the old Panasonic laser printer my old
office had. It was a huge beast, and certainly no better than the HP we
also had at the time (LJ 4???), but the Panasonic would feed *any* paper
you put into it, even if it had just been run through the printer on one
side. I'd always use it to print out my manuals on 2 sides for proofing.
Other than this, the LaserJet is a fine piece of equipment.
--
Who needs a junta or a dictatorship when you have a Congress
blowing Wall Street, using the media as a condom?
- harvested from Usenet |
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| Warren Block... |
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:46 pm |
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Guest
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David Nebenzahl <nobody at (no spam) but.us.chickens> wrote:
[quote]This inspired by the mini-thread in the thread up yonder about HP
DeskJet printers. Actually something of a reverse gloat, along the lines
of "my old printer still works; does yours?".
Got my HP LaserJet 2100M (600 DPI w/PostScript capability) ca. 2000. Not
only is the printer still working perfectly, but I'm still using the
same cartridge I got with it!
Which is a little puzzling; while the printer hasn't exactly been used
in a production environment, I have put plenty of pages through it:
printed out many entire manuals, etc. I'm just waiting for the cartridge
to empty out, but it still hasn't come close. (I even have a 2nd
cartridge I got with the printer, still in its foil package.)
One thing I really don't like about this, and really most HP printers
that I've used, is that it hates to print on the back of printed sheets.
Usually it eats/shreds about half the sheets one tries to print this
way.
[/quote]
Check that there's still some tread on the rollers, and maybe the
separation pad.
[quote]Yeah, I know, you can get HPs with "duplex" options, but to me,
that's utter bullshit.
[/quote]
All the duplexers do is flip the paper over so it can refeed. Printing
on the blank side of once-printed paper shouldn't be a problem.
Several brands of big office copier/printers used to provide me with
lots of hundred-page PostScript misprints. That once-printed paper
worked fine in LaserJet 4050 and 4350 printers.
--
Warren Block * Rapid City, South Dakota * USA |
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| Trevor Wilson... |
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:17 pm |
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"David Nebenzahl" <nobody at (no spam) but.us.chickens> wrote in message
news:4af0d11b$0$4059$822641b3 at (no spam) news.adtechcomputers.com...
[quote]This inspired by the mini-thread in the thread up yonder about HP DeskJet
printers. Actually something of a reverse gloat, along the lines of "my
old printer still works; does yours?".
[/quote]
**I was just saying to my partner last week, that what I hated most about my
HP Laserjet 5MP (ca. 1994) was that the damned thing refuses to stop
working. I've fed it with more than a dozen cartridges (around 60,000 pages)
and it simply works and works perfectly. Print resolution is flawless, paper
jams almst unheard of (one every thousand pages or so). I've even been using
re-filled cartridges (despite HP's dire warnings), which cost around
AUS$60.00 apiece and it just won't stop. As of 2009, it can only be regarded
as a slug (6 pages/min), but it does the job. Damn it! I really wanted an
excuse to buy one of those all bells & whistles, HP colour laser printers.
FWIW: In the time I've owned the HP, I've thrown out four ink jet printers,
of various brands. They are, on the whole, utter crap. My HP will probably
still be working well into the next millenium.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au |
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| D Yuniskis... |
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:34 pm |
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David Nebenzahl wrote:
[quote]Got my HP LaserJet 2100M (600 DPI w/PostScript capability) ca. 2000. Not
only is the printer still working perfectly, but I'm still using the
same cartridge I got with it!
Which is a little puzzling; while the printer hasn't exactly been used
in a production environment, I have put plenty of pages through it:
printed out many entire manuals, etc. I'm just waiting for the cartridge
[/quote]
Most toner cartridges are designed for thousands of pages.
(e.g., 5,000 pages -- 10 reams of paper)
[quote]to empty out, but it still hasn't come close. (I even have a 2nd
cartridge I got with the printer, still in its foil package.)
[/quote]
I've had the same problem -- though I consider it an *annoyance*!
I routinely rescue color printers (not the cheap inkjets), run
them until they run out of ink/toner and then scrap/recycle them.
Unfortunately, even printing 8.5x11 photos (i.e., 100% ink coverage)
I haven't been able to "empty" any of them! I've been concentrating
on a Phaser 8200 for the past year and it looks like there are
still many months more of service left in the "ink tray" :<
[quote]One thing I really don't like about this, and really most HP printers
that I've used, is that it hates to print on the back of printed sheets.
Usually it eats/shreds about half the sheets one tries to print this
[/quote]
You've either got bad rollers, a bad fuser or "off brand" toner.
I haven't had problems with any LJ (I currently have an LJ4M+
and an LJ6P) printing "back side" (the LJ4M+ has the optional
duplexer so it *wants* to print "verso")
[quote]way. Yeah, I know, you can get HPs with "duplex" options, but to me,
that's utter bullshit. I remember the old Panasonic laser printer my old
office had. It was a huge beast, and certainly no better than the HP we
also had at the time (LJ 4???), but the Panasonic would feed *any* paper
you put into it, even if it had just been run through the printer on one
side. I'd always use it to print out my manuals on 2 sides for proofing.
Other than this, the LaserJet is a fine piece of equipment.
[/quote]
I couldn't *kill* my LJii! I finally had to get rid of it as
the electric costs were ridiculous (though the toner carts
were awful cheap!) |
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| D Yuniskis... |
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:45 pm |
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Guest
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Trevor Wilson wrote:
[quote]"David Nebenzahl" <nobody at (no spam) but.us.chickens> wrote in message
news:4af0d11b$0$4059$822641b3 at (no spam) news.adtechcomputers.com...
This inspired by the mini-thread in the thread up yonder about HP DeskJet
printers. Actually something of a reverse gloat, along the lines of "my
old printer still works; does yours?".
**I was just saying to my partner last week, that what I hated most about my
HP Laserjet 5MP (ca. 1994) was that the damned thing refuses to stop
working. I've fed it with more than a dozen cartridges (around 60,000 pages)
and it simply works and works perfectly. Print resolution is flawless, paper
jams almst unheard of (one every thousand pages or so). I've even been using
re-filled cartridges (despite HP's dire warnings), which cost around
AUS$60.00 apiece and it just won't stop. As of 2009, it can only be regarded
as a slug (6 pages/min), but it does the job. Damn it! I really wanted an
excuse to buy one of those all bells & whistles, HP colour laser printers.
[/quote]
Think carefully before buying color. Decide what you really need
from the printer (I recall going through this exercise at a company
where we were *designing* a printer). I use different printers
for different jobs.
E.g., LJ6P for low volume B&W printing -- when I want to
print a web page or "copy" a document (using a scanner);
LJ4M+ for big B&W jobs (I think it is 12PPM and duplexes
so it saves me paper); a Sony DPP-EX50 for postcard photographs;
Phaser 560 for high volume color "documents"; other "solid
inkj" phasers for large color photos; R1800 for big photos
and/or CD labels; etc.
If all you need is "multicolor business documents" (i.e., where
ICM isn't important) you can more effectively trade money for
speed, reduced supply costs, etc. OTOH, if you want to print
photos, you will find the cost of printing "business documents"
to be much higher than you would like.
[quote]FWIW: In the time I've owned the HP, I've thrown out four ink jet printers,
of various brands. They are, on the whole, utter crap. My HP will probably
still be working well into the next millenium.
[/quote]
HP inkjets are total crap. Some of the high end Epson's are
respectible -- *if* you maintain them well (I have an R1800,
SC3000 and SP2000P which have all performed well -- though
Photoshop doesn't like the oversized pages on the SC3000) |
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| David Nebenzahl... |
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:57 pm |
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Guest
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On 11/3/2009 5:46 PM Warren Block spake thus:
[quote]David Nebenzahl <nobody at (no spam) but.us.chickens> wrote:
One thing I really don't like about this, and really most HP printers
that I've used, is that it hates to print on the back of printed sheets.
Usually it eats/shreds about half the sheets one tries to print this
way.
Check that there's still some tread on the rollers, and maybe the
separation pad.
[/quote]
Nope. Not the problem. It's inherent in the lousy HP feeder design. I've
never seen a LaserJet that would print on the back side of just-printed
sheets even when brand new.
--
Who needs a junta or a dictatorship when you have a Congress
blowing Wall Street, using the media as a condom?
- harvested from Usenet |
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| Jeff Liebermann... |
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:35 pm |
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On Tue, 03 Nov 2009 16:56:06 -0800, David Nebenzahl
<nobody at (no spam) but.us.chickens> wrote:
[quote]This inspired by the mini-thread in the thread up yonder about HP
DeskJet printers. Actually something of a reverse gloat, along the lines
of "my old printer still works; does yours?".
[/quote]
A better question would be "What's the useful lifetime of your
printer" or perhaps "How many pages did you print before it ended up
at the recyclers"?
[quote]Got my HP LaserJet 2100M (600 DPI w/PostScript capability) ca. 2000. Not
only is the printer still working perfectly, but I'm still using the
same cartridge I got with it!
[/quote]
I used to have one of those at home. The HP2100 series will do
1200dpi, which looks really nice for photos. However, the stupid
driver install defaults to 600dpi. Most people fail to notice until I
change the settings.
<http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/Document.jsp?objectID=bpl06416&locale=en_US&prodSeriesId=25469&prodTypeId=18972#A3>
My 2100n worked ok but had a few issues. The fuser and fan are
thermostatically controlled and would cycle all night, which tended to
keep me awake. I don't mind listening to noise when it's printing,
but don't need the noise when it's idle. The power saving standby
function apparently didn't include the fan. 10 pages per minute was a
bit slow for me.
My current 2200dtn solved these problems. It uses the same cartridge,
prints on both sides, does not make noise when in standby, has 2
trays, and never seems to jam if I use decent paper (except when
printing my tax returns).
Incidentally, on the paper issue, I've found that thin 16 lb paper
tends to jam far more often than the 22 and 24 lb stock I'm currently
using. I've fixed many a paper jam problem by simply switching paper.
My neighbor is into recycling everything which includes saving old
printed pages and printing on the back side. The result is toner all
over rubber parts of the fuser roller assembly, where the previously
printed toner transfers to the roller when heated.
[quote]Which is a little puzzling; while the printer hasn't exactly been used
in a production environment, I have put plenty of pages through it:
printed out many entire manuals, etc. I'm just waiting for the cartridge
to empty out, but it still hasn't come close. (I even have a 2nd
cartridge I got with the printer, still in its foil package.)
[/quote]
The 96A cartridge is rated for 5000 pages in econo mode (600dpi). My
guess s about 4000 at 1200dpi. That's about 2-3 times what you might
get from some of HP's low end printers, such as the HP1012 with a 12A
cartridge (rated at 2000 pages).
However, my favorite office production printer (of the week), the HP
LaserJet 4300, uses a 39A cartridge, which is rated for 16,000 pages.
Some vendors claim up to 30,000 pages, but I don't believe it. Last
year, my tax prep customers averaged about 18,000 pages per cartridge.
The problem is that the stock HP carts cost about $120. There are
refills available for as little at $30, but the chip on these carts do
not show toner status. They also require a minor button pushing
ordeal to get rid of the "non-HP cart inserted" message.
[quote]One thing I really don't like about this, and really most HP printers
that I've used, is that it hates to print on the back of printed sheets.
Usually it eats/shreds about half the sheets one tries to print this
way.
[/quote]
True. The printers expect the pages to be flat. Pages that have gone
through the printer tend to be slightly warped. That causes paper
jams. Remelting the toner on the back side of the page sometimes
causes the toner to stick to the rubber roller in the fuser, causing
exit jams. Paper doesn't like to slide smoothly off the stack in the
tray when there's printing on the back side. That's an especially bad
problem if you print a stack of paper, and then feed the stack back
through the printer again to print on the back side. The pages will
stick together. The rubber "feet" above the feed tray don't like to
push against printed paper, where the black areas are much slicker
than the unprinted white paper. It's usually not a problem with a
fairly new printer, but after the rubber feet get worn and slick,
things tend to slide.
[quote]Yeah, I know, you can get HPs with "duplex" options, but to me,
that's utter bullshit.
[/quote]
Ummmm... well, ok. The duplexer will slow down the printer, even when
printing one page on one side. The duplexers I have on various 2100,
4200, 4300, and older HP printers work just fine. I can't say the
same for flipping over the stack and feeding the pages through again.
[quote]I remember the old Panasonic laser printer my old
office had. It was a huge beast, and certainly no better than the HP we
also had at the time (LJ 4???), but the Panasonic would feed *any* paper
you put into it, even if it had just been run through the printer on one
side. I'd always use it to print out my manuals on 2 sides for proofing.
[/quote]
I suppose that's an advantage if you run a mix of paper. The printers
I run into all run 20, 22, or 24 lb white paper in the main tray, and
some heavier stock (for cover sheets) in the 2nd tray. Sometimes,
some colored paper in the 3rd tray and possibly an envelope feeder or
pile of envelopes in the "multipurpose" tray.
Incidentally, many of my customers are buying office copiers that can
also act as a printer. This is becoming quite common. Printing speed
is greatly improved and it eliminates a redundant printer. However,
just try juggling paper around reprinting the back side in one of
these high end office copiers. They get some of their speed and
reliability by being optimized for a limited range of paper weights
and types, and will screw up badly if fed used, damaged, or wrong
paper.
[quote]Other than this, the LaserJet is a fine piece of equipment.
[/quote]
Yep. Plug:
<http://www.fixyourownprinter.com>
<http://www.printerworks.com>
<http://partsurfer.hp.com>
One reason I like HP is that I can get information, parts, refurbs,
software, hacks, 3rd party parts, etc.
--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl at (no spam) cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
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| Jeff Liebermann... |
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:46 pm |
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Guest
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On Tue, 03 Nov 2009 19:45:34 -0700, D Yuniskis
<not.going.to.be at (no spam) seen.com> wrote:
[quote]HP inkjets are total crap.
[/quote]
Not really. The DesignJet plotters are quite nice. Also, every
vendor has its winners and losers. Current HP inkjet printers seem to
be aimed at the very bottom of the market. They're little better than
throw aways. However, some of the more expensive HP inkjet printers
are tolerable.
[quote]Some of the high end Epson's are
respectible -- *if* you maintain them well (I have an R1800,
SC3000 and SP2000P which have all performed well -- though
Photoshop doesn't like the oversized pages on the SC3000)
[/quote]
Yep. However, I don't like Epson because of the difficulty in
obtaining parts, and their refill protection scheme. In addition,
having access to parts is often not enough as proprietary software is
required to align and calibrate the printer. There is a hack:
<http://www.ssclg.com/epsone.shtml>
<http://inkjetprinterhelp.us/epsonSSC.html>
to get around this, but Epson also juggles the firmware to compensate.
Epson may make better high end inkjet printers, but if I can't
maintain them, they'll probably end up at the recyclers.
I dunno about the "oversized pages" problem. I use various HP
plotters for large format print jobs but don't use Photoshop.
--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl at (no spam) cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
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| Bob Larter... |
| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:06 am |
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Guest
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David Nebenzahl wrote:
[quote]On 11/3/2009 5:46 PM Warren Block spake thus:
David Nebenzahl <nobody at (no spam) but.us.chickens> wrote:
One thing I really don't like about this, and really most HP printers
that I've used, is that it hates to print on the back of printed
sheets. Usually it eats/shreds about half the sheets one tries to
print this way.
Check that there's still some tread on the rollers, and maybe the
separation pad.
Nope. Not the problem. It's inherent in the lousy HP feeder design. I've
never seen a LaserJet that would print on the back side of just-printed
sheets even when brand new.
[/quote]
Oh bullshit. I have nearly 30 years of experience with
HP/Canon/Apple/Brother lasers, & they handle double-sided printing
better than just about anything else on the market. You're obviously
doing it wrong. See my other post in this thread for tips.
--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^--------------------------------------------------------------- |
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| Bob Larter... |
| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:06 am |
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Guest
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David Nebenzahl wrote:
[quote]One thing I really don't like about this, and really most HP printers
that I've used, is that it hates to print on the back of printed sheets.
Usually it eats/shreds about half the sheets one tries to print this
way. Yeah, I know, you can get HPs with "duplex" options, but to me,
that's utter bullshit. I remember the old Panasonic laser printer my old
office had. It was a huge beast, and certainly no better than the HP we
also had at the time (LJ 4???), but the Panasonic would feed *any* paper
you put into it, even if it had just been run through the printer on one
side. I'd always use it to print out my manuals on 2 sides for proofing.
[/quote]
It'll work better if you ensure that you print on the correct side of
the sheet first. Check your paper packet for an arrow, & a label saying
"Print this side first", & load your paper tray accordingly. It'll also
help to riffle the stack of paper before loading it into the cartridge.
Give the paper cartridge a shake to even up the edges before putting it
in the printer.
--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^--------------------------------------------------------------- |
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| Bob Larter... |
| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:06 am |
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Guest
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Warren Block wrote:
[quote]David Nebenzahl <nobody at (no spam) but.us.chickens> wrote:
This inspired by the mini-thread in the thread up yonder about HP
DeskJet printers. Actually something of a reverse gloat, along the lines
of "my old printer still works; does yours?".
Got my HP LaserJet 2100M (600 DPI w/PostScript capability) ca. 2000. Not
only is the printer still working perfectly, but I'm still using the
same cartridge I got with it!
Which is a little puzzling; while the printer hasn't exactly been used
in a production environment, I have put plenty of pages through it:
printed out many entire manuals, etc. I'm just waiting for the cartridge
to empty out, but it still hasn't come close. (I even have a 2nd
cartridge I got with the printer, still in its foil package.)
One thing I really don't like about this, and really most HP printers
that I've used, is that it hates to print on the back of printed sheets.
Usually it eats/shreds about half the sheets one tries to print this
way.
Check that there's still some tread on the rollers, and maybe the
separation pad.
[/quote]
That's good advice too, although it's unlikely to be a problem on a
printer that's still on its first(!) toner cartridge.
[quote]Yeah, I know, you can get HPs with "duplex" options, but to me,
that's utter bullshit.
All the duplexers do is flip the paper over so it can refeed. Printing
on the blank side of once-printed paper shouldn't be a problem.
Several brands of big office copier/printers used to provide me with
lots of hundred-page PostScript misprints. That once-printed paper
worked fine in LaserJet 4050 and 4350 printers.
[/quote]
Yep. I've never had any trouble printing on used paper with any
HP/Canon/Apple laser.
--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^--------------------------------------------------------------- |
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| David Nebenzahl... |
| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:07 am |
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Guest
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On 11/3/2009 8:35 PM Jeff Liebermann spake thus:
[quote]On Tue, 03 Nov 2009 16:56:06 -0800, David Nebenzahl
nobody at (no spam) but.us.chickens> wrote:
One thing I really don't like about this, and really most HP
printers that I've used, is that it hates to print on the back of
printed sheets. Usually it eats/shreds about half the sheets one
tries to print this way.
True. The printers expect the pages to be flat. Pages that have gone
through the printer tend to be slightly warped. That causes paper
jams.
[/quote]
Exactly. (And to the person in this thread who responded to this with
"bullshit", I say "bullshit!" right back atcha.)
In case I wasn't clear, the problem I was referring to was printing a
document on both front and back, where you first print the odd pages,
then run the stack back through on the other side and print the even pages.
Every non-duplexing HP LaserJet I've ever seen will fuck up and jam if
you try to do this. The problem, as you said, is the curl imparted to
the paper by the fuser. I have had some success taking the first-printed
stack and "working" it vigorously to remove the curl, but it's a pain in
the ass, and not guaranteed to work.
Since there are other laser printers that don't have this problem, I can
only conclude that HP LaserJets have inferior feed mechanisms.
And I do know what the hell I'm talking about: in a previous life I was
a printer (as in a real printing press, not desktop computer printers),
so I've dealt with lots of machines that eat paper.
--
Who needs a junta or a dictatorship when you have a Congress
blowing Wall Street, using the media as a condom?
- harvested from Usenet |
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| David Nebenzahl... |
| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:09 am |
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Guest
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On 11/3/2009 9:39 PM Bob Larter spake thus:
[quote]David Nebenzahl wrote:
One thing I really don't like about this, and really most HP printers
that I've used, is that it hates to print on the back of printed sheets.
Usually it eats/shreds about half the sheets one tries to print this
way. Yeah, I know, you can get HPs with "duplex" options, but to me,
that's utter bullshit. I remember the old Panasonic laser printer my old
office had. It was a huge beast, and certainly no better than the HP we
also had at the time (LJ 4???), but the Panasonic would feed *any* paper
you put into it, even if it had just been run through the printer on one
side. I'd always use it to print out my manuals on 2 sides for proofing.
It'll work better if you ensure that you print on the correct side of
the sheet first. Check your paper packet for an arrow, & a label saying
"Print this side first", & load your paper tray accordingly. It'll also
help to riffle the stack of paper before loading it into the cartridge.
Give the paper cartridge a shake to even up the edges before putting it
in the printer.
[/quote]
I've done all those things; none of them make the slightest difference.
(As a former printer, it's an automatic reflex for me to fan paper
before inserting it into a paper-eating machine.)
--
Who needs a junta or a dictatorship when you have a Congress
blowing Wall Street, using the media as a condom?
- harvested from Usenet |
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| Warren Block... |
| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:20 am |
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David Nebenzahl <nobody at (no spam) but.us.chickens> wrote:
[quote]On 11/3/2009 5:46 PM Warren Block spake thus:
David Nebenzahl <nobody at (no spam) but.us.chickens> wrote:
One thing I really don't like about this, and really most HP printers
that I've used, is that it hates to print on the back of printed sheets.
Usually it eats/shreds about half the sheets one tries to print this
way.
Check that there's still some tread on the rollers, and maybe the
separation pad.
Nope. Not the problem. It's inherent in the lousy HP feeder design.
[/quote]
Hmm. The LJ2100 feeder is kind of poor, like a lot of the earlier and
lower-end LaserJets. The 4050 and up have the best I've seen. I've got
some LJ2100s and will give this a try.
[quote]I've never seen a LaserJet that would print on the back side of
just-printed sheets even when brand new.
[/quote]
Have you tried a 4050 or newer?
--
Warren Block * Rapid City, South Dakota * USA |
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| David Nebenzahl... |
| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:26 am |
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Guest
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On 11/3/2009 9:20 PM Warren Block spake thus:
[quote]David Nebenzahl <nobody at (no spam) but.us.chickens> wrote:
I've never seen a LaserJet that would print on the back side of
just-printed sheets even when brand new.
Have you tried a 4050 or newer?
[/quote]
No; I should have said that my experience with these printers is as of
about 5 years ago. Let us know how the feeding experiment with the 4050
goes.
--
Who needs a junta or a dictatorship when you have a Congress
blowing Wall Street, using the media as a condom?
- harvested from Usenet |
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