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PCB Encapsulants to Annoy Copy Pirates...

Author

Message

D from BC...

Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 4:16 pm

Guest

I'd like to pot my smt pcb with the nastiest sh*t possible to make it
hell for copy cats..

So far I've found:

http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/832ht.html
'Extremely difficult to remove - grants incredible technology
protection '

Besides epoxy.. Are there alternatives?

ex: Very very hot melt? Low melting point glass?

D from BC
Amateur smps designer
British Columbia, Canada
Posted to sci.electronics.design

MooseFET...

Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 4:35 pm

Guest

On Nov 2, 1:16 pm, D from BC <myrealaddr... at (no spam) comic.com> wrote:
[quote]I'd like to pot my smt pcb with the nastiest sh*t possible to make it
hell for copy cats..

So far I've found:

http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/832ht.html
'Extremely difficult to remove - grants incredible technology
protection '

Besides epoxy.. Are there alternatives?

ex: Very very hot melt? Low melting point glass?
[/quote]
Make a nice aluminum housing for it and put it together with left
handed screws.

You can get chips marked with your company part number if you order
enough. Make your part number for a 74HC04 be LM324 and etc.

Make it all "firmware" in a FPGA and use a coin cell battery to keep
the FPGA always powered on. If they open it up poof goes the code.

mpm...

Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 4:54 pm

Guest

On Nov 2, 7:10 pm, Archimedes' Lever <OneBigLe... at (no spam) InfiniteSeries.Org>
wrote:
[quote]On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 22:28:03 -0000, "TTman" <someone... at (no spam) ntlworld.com
wrote:

"D from BC" <myrealaddr... at (no spam) comic.com> wrote in message
news:dddue5hrjdthg692kk7s5kgcti5kjkvfkr at (no spam) 4ax.com...
I'd like to pot my smt pcb with the nastiest sh*t possible to make it
hell for copy cats..

So far I've found:

http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/832ht.html
'Extremely difficult to remove - grants incredible technology
protection '

Besides epoxy.. Are there alternatives?

Araldaite 2014- grey epoxy. I use it, very, very good stuff !

Take a Dremel with a round rubber drum sanding attachment of about 1/2"
diameter.

Grind off all the ID marks on the chips.

Then, pot it in "Stycast".

No, epoxy is what you need. Most anything else can be removed one way
or another too easily.

There are high adhesion polyurethane potting compounds, but they are
far more costly.

An alternative to fully potting it, would be to do the chip grind thing,
and then 'paint' the epoxy over those chip-top locations. You could also
'paint' over the traces until the build up is high enough to hide them,
but they can be traced via continuity tests usually.

You could also build a small trace array that you selectively cut and
bridge to complete uniquely "keyed" circuits ala Dongle Key technology.

You could make each circuit unique, yet the same, yet harder to copy.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
[/quote]
Could you also throw 'em a curveball by re-printing bogus ID's on the
chips?

Something within the limits of credulity...
I'm not suggesting you paint "555" on the top of a TMS340 or anything
like that...

If you chose your part numbers carefully, you might send them on a
wild goose chase... Smile

TTman...

Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:28 pm

Guest

"D from BC" <myrealaddress at (no spam) comic.com> wrote in message
news:dddue5hrjdthg692kk7s5kgcti5kjkvfkr at (no spam) 4ax.com...
[quote]I'd like to pot my smt pcb with the nastiest sh*t possible to make it
hell for copy cats..

So far I've found:

http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/832ht.html
'Extremely difficult to remove - grants incredible technology
protection '

Besides epoxy.. Are there alternatives?
[/quote]
Araldaite 2014- grey epoxy. I use it, very, very good stuff !

D from BC...

Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:39 pm

Guest

Tim Williams...

Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:51 pm

Guest

On Nov 2, 8:35 pm, MooseFET <kensm... at (no spam) rahul.net> wrote:
[quote]Make it all "firmware" in a FPGA and use a coin cell battery to keep
the FPGA always powered on. If they open it up poof goes the code.
[/quote]
Planned obsolescence, too. Good idea!

D: what about x-rays? Do they make lead oxide-filled epoxy? It's
pretty trivial to x-ray through potting otherwise. ;-)

Tim

Jon Slaughter...

Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 7:06 pm

Guest

D from BC wrote:
[quote]On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 22:28:03 -0000, "TTman" <someone.pc at (no spam) ntlworld.com
wrote:

"D from BC" <myrealaddress at (no spam) comic.com> wrote in message
news:dddue5hrjdthg692kk7s5kgcti5kjkvfkr at (no spam) 4ax.com...
I'd like to pot my smt pcb with the nastiest sh*t possible to make
it hell for copy cats..

So far I've found:

http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/832ht.html
'Extremely difficult to remove - grants incredible technology
protection '

Besides epoxy.. Are there alternatives?

Araldaite 2014- grey epoxy. I use it, very, very good stuff !

Neato..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Araldite
'Highmark Manufacturing uses Araldite in the manufacture of advanced
ballistic protection body armor'

While on wiki. I came across this tidbit...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epoxy_resin
'Vinegar is an effective and safe solvent to clean up tools, brushes,
skin, and most surfaces contaminated with epoxy resin or hardener.'

Huh..didn't know that..
[/quote]
When you try something let us(me) know how it goes?

Archimedes' Lever...

Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 7:10 pm

Guest

On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 22:28:03 -0000, "TTman" <someone.pc at (no spam) ntlworld.com>
wrote:

[quote]
"D from BC" <myrealaddress at (no spam) comic.com> wrote in message
news:dddue5hrjdthg692kk7s5kgcti5kjkvfkr at (no spam) 4ax.com...
I'd like to pot my smt pcb with the nastiest sh*t possible to make it
hell for copy cats..

So far I've found:

http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/832ht.html
'Extremely difficult to remove - grants incredible technology
protection '

Besides epoxy.. Are there alternatives?

Araldaite 2014- grey epoxy. I use it, very, very good stuff !

[/quote]

Take a Dremel with a round rubber drum sanding attachment of about 1/2"
diameter.

Grind off all the ID marks on the chips.

Then, pot it in "Stycast".

No, epoxy is what you need. Most anything else can be removed one way
or another too easily.

There are high adhesion polyurethane potting compounds, but they are
far more costly.

An alternative to fully potting it, would be to do the chip grind thing,
and then 'paint' the epoxy over those chip-top locations. You could also
'paint' over the traces until the build up is high enough to hide them,
but they can be traced via continuity tests usually.

You could also build a small trace array that you selectively cut and
bridge to complete uniquely "keyed" circuits ala Dongle Key technology.

You could make each circuit unique, yet the same, yet harder to copy.

John Larkin...

Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 7:57 pm

Guest

On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 13:16:28 -0800, D from BC
<myrealaddress at (no spam) comic.com> wrote:

[quote]I'd like to pot my smt pcb with the nastiest sh*t possible to make it
hell for copy cats..

So far I've found:

http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/832ht.html
'Extremely difficult to remove - grants incredible technology
protection '

Besides epoxy.. Are there alternatives?

ex: Very very hot melt? Low melting point glass?

D from BC
Amateur smps designer
British Columbia, Canada
Posted to sci.electronics.design
[/quote]
The disadvantages of potting generally far outweigh the likelihood
that someone will copy your design. And if they're determined, they
will anyhow.

John

Greegor...

Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:03 pm

Guest

How do you like getting products made that way?

Hammy...

Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:09 pm

Guest

On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 13:16:28 -0800, D from BC
<myrealaddress at (no spam) comic.com> wrote:

[quote]I'd like to pot my smt pcb with the nastiest sh*t possible to make it
hell for copy cats..

So far I've found:

http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/832ht.html
'Extremely difficult to remove - grants incredible technology
protection '

Besides epoxy.. Are there alternatives?

ex: Very very hot melt? Low melting point glass?

D from BC
Amateur smps designer
British Columbia, Canada
Posted to sci.electronics.design
[/quote]
Patent it. Thats what everybody else does.

What did you invent a time machine ?

D from BC...

Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:15 pm

Guest

On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 18:06:09 -0600, "Jon Slaughter"
<Jon_Slaughter at (no spam) Hotmail.com> wrote:

[quote]D from BC wrote:
On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 22:28:03 -0000, "TTman" <someone.pc at (no spam) ntlworld.com
wrote:

"D from BC" <myrealaddress at (no spam) comic.com> wrote in message
news:dddue5hrjdthg692kk7s5kgcti5kjkvfkr at (no spam) 4ax.com...
I'd like to pot my smt pcb with the nastiest sh*t possible to make
it hell for copy cats..

So far I've found:

http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/832ht.html
'Extremely difficult to remove - grants incredible technology
protection '

Besides epoxy.. Are there alternatives?

Araldaite 2014- grey epoxy. I use it, very, very good stuff !

Neato..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Araldite
'Highmark Manufacturing uses Araldite in the manufacture of advanced
ballistic protection body armor'

While on wiki. I came across this tidbit...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epoxy_resin
'Vinegar is an effective and safe solvent to clean up tools, brushes,
skin, and most surfaces contaminated with epoxy resin or hardener.'

Huh..didn't know that..

When you try something let us(me) know how it goes?
[/quote]
It'll be awhile..
I just started the pcb design.
Might be potting in Jan 2010.

D from BC
Amateur smps designer
British Columbia, Canada
Posted to sci.electronics.design

D from BC...

Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:37 pm

Guest

On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 16:10:52 -0800, Archimedes' Lever
<OneBigLever at (no spam) InfiniteSeries.Org> wrote:

[quote]On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 22:28:03 -0000, "TTman" <someone.pc at (no spam) ntlworld.com
wrote:

"D from BC" <myrealaddress at (no spam) comic.com> wrote in message
news:dddue5hrjdthg692kk7s5kgcti5kjkvfkr at (no spam) 4ax.com...
I'd like to pot my smt pcb with the nastiest sh*t possible to make it
hell for copy cats..

So far I've found:

http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/832ht.html
'Extremely difficult to remove - grants incredible technology
protection '

Besides epoxy.. Are there alternatives?

Araldaite 2014- grey epoxy. I use it, very, very good stuff !

Take a Dremel with a round rubber drum sanding attachment of about 1/2"
diameter.

Grind off all the ID marks on the chips.
[/quote]
I might try a solvent to smudge the ID on the IC.

[quote]
Then, pot it in "Stycast".

No, epoxy is what you need. Most anything else can be removed one way
or another too easily.

There are high adhesion polyurethane potting compounds, but they are
far more costly.
[/quote]
In addition to adhesion, the potting has to resist solvent/chemical
baths that pirates may use.

[quote]
An alternative to fully potting it, would be to do the chip grind thing,
and then 'paint' the epoxy over those chip-top locations. You could also
'paint' over the traces until the build up is high enough to hide them,
but they can be traced via continuity tests usually.

You could also build a small trace array that you selectively cut and
bridge to complete uniquely "keyed" circuits ala Dongle Key technology.

You could make each circuit unique, yet the same, yet harder to copy.
[/quote]
Maybe I could do some micro wire jumpers running through the epoxy.
If tools are used to remove the epoxy, the pirates might buzz through
the wires by accident.

D from BC...

Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:49 pm

Guest

On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 16:57:55 -0800, John Larkin
<jjlarkin at (no spam) highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

[quote]On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 13:16:28 -0800, D from BC
myrealaddress at (no spam) comic.com> wrote:

I'd like to pot my smt pcb with the nastiest sh*t possible to make it
hell for copy cats..

So far I've found:

http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/832ht.html
'Extremely difficult to remove - grants incredible technology
protection '

Besides epoxy.. Are there alternatives?

ex: Very very hot melt? Low melting point glass?

D from BC
Amateur smps designer
British Columbia, Canada
Posted to sci.electronics.design

The disadvantages of potting generally far outweigh the likelihood
that someone will copy your design. And if they're determined, they
will anyhow.

John
[/quote]
Potting will make me feel good? :)

This might be ironic.
It's possible the first people to tear into the epoxy potting will not
be Asian copy cats but instead US patent owners who suspect their
patent is being used without permission.

Joel Koltner...

Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:54 pm

Guest

"D from BC" <myrealaddress at (no spam) comic.com> wrote in message
news:8b2ve5tmtarghq32lpn3d10mkonetfati6 at (no spam) 4ax.com...
[quote]It's possible the first people to tear into the epoxy potting will not
be Asian copy cats but instead US patent owners who suspect their
patent is being used without permission.
[/quote]
Hmm... I wonder if you can be made to reveal your design
schematics/software/etc. if a patent holder is able to convince a judge that
there's a very good change you're infringing on their patent, yet you have
made it effectively impossible for an outside party to determine as much?

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