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| TBerk... |
 Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 11:05 am |
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Changing the clock seems like a cheat.
If businesses are affected by the differences in sunup/set then adjust
your schedule accordingly.
I hear "the kids have to go to school in the dark..." or some such
foolishness. No they don't, they go when it's 'time to go', and that
is based on,,, what exactly?
The guy who proposed this (or gets the credit anyway) wanted more
after-work daylight to accomplish his activities, changing the
timepieces seems a stupid way to accomplish this.
berk |
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| Mike Collins... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 12:40 pm |
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On Nov 1, 9:05 pm, TBerk <bayareab... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
[quote]Changing the clock seems like a cheat.
If businesses are affected by the differences in sunup/set then adjust
your schedule accordingly.
I hear "the kids have to go to school in the dark..." or some such
foolishness. No they don't, they go when it's 'time to go', and that
is based on,,, what exactly?
The guy who proposed this (or gets the credit anyway) wanted more
after-work daylight to accomplish his activities, changing the
timepieces seems a stupid way to accomplish this.
berk
[/quote]
Daylight savings time is an inspired confidence trick. Imagine if the
government told you to get up an hour earlier each day. Would utter an
expletive and refuse. But people happily change their clocks twice a
year. In England most people want to stay on daylight savings time
throughout the year. We tried it for a few years in the late 1960's. I
hated it. |
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| Quadibloc... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 1:14 pm |
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On Nov 1, 3:40 pm, Mike Collins <acridiniumes... at (no spam) googlemail.com>
wrote:
[quote]Daylight savings time is an inspired confidence trick. Imagine if the
government told you to get up an hour earlier each day. Would utter an
expletive and refuse. But people happily change their clocks twice a
year.
[/quote]
Yes; it works more simply because people doing different things all
need the clock to coordinate their schedules, so people go to work an
hour earlier, their children go to school an hour earlier, stores open
an hour earlier, and all the TV programs are on an hour earlier. If
the government tried to say that *everything* is to happen an hour
earlier *without* the clock moving, such an attempt would be likely to
collapse in confusion.
John Savard |
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| Chris.B... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:21 pm |
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Daylight saving time was originally a philanthropic gesture to give
factory workers free time in daylight when long working hours under
poor lighting conditions were far more commonplace. Now everybody goes
home to watch TV and browse, instead of enjoying daylight in the fresh
air, it no longer makes as much sense to adjust the clocks. |
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| Dave Typinski... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 11:41 pm |
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TBerk <bayareaberk at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
[quote]
Changing the clock seems like a cheat.
If businesses are affected by the differences in sunup/set then adjust
your schedule accordingly.
I hear "the kids have to go to school in the dark..." or some such
foolishness. No they don't, they go when it's 'time to go', and that
is based on,,, what exactly?
[/quote]
Absolutely nothing as far as I can tell. Most of Arizona gets along
just fine without the oscillation in local time with which the rest of
the US is burdened.* Their kids don't get lost on the way to school
and their factories seem to have no problems with darkness. The golf
courses in Scottsdale also run just fine.
I don't get it either. In my opinion, we should simply switch
everything to UTC and have done with it. As that would make sense, I
give it a very low probability of happening.
* Yeah, and parts of Indiana. Because someone will mention it...
--
Dave |
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| Quadibloc... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:54 am |
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On Nov 2, 4:53 am, William Hamblen <william.hamb... at (no spam) earthlink.net>
wrote:
[quote]Daylight saving time doesn't
save daylight, there's just as much as there always is, and doesn't
save electricity.
[/quote]
Oh, it does save electricity - depending on one's latitude and other
factors. If it didn't, it would not have been persisted in. I'm sure
that the results of DST in terms of electricity consumption were
tracked when DST was instituted or extended in wartime, at least.
John Savard |
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| Quadibloc... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:10 am |
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On Nov 2, 5:44 am, Davoud <s... at (no spam) sky.net> wrote:
[quote]They get by. It's only part of the state, in any case. That's the same
Indiana, by the way, where a law was proposed to make Pi = 3 because
the Bible sez that Pi = 3. Sanity prevailed.
[/quote]
No, that is not true at all; that never happened in Indiana.
What _was_ proposed was a law to make Pi equal to 3 1/5, so that
Indiana wouldn't have to pay licensing fees when it changed its school
textbooks to reflect the wonderful new discovery by Edwin J. Goodwin
of how to square the circle with straightedge and compass. No molten
seas were involved at all.
John Savard |
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| Martin Brown... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:07 am |
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Dave Typinski wrote:
[quote]TBerk <bayareaberk at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
Changing the clock seems like a cheat.
If businesses are affected by the differences in sunup/set then adjust
your schedule accordingly.
I hear "the kids have to go to school in the dark..." or some such
foolishness. No they don't, they go when it's 'time to go', and that
is based on,,, what exactly?
Absolutely nothing as far as I can tell. Most of Arizona gets along
just fine without the oscillation in local time with which the rest of
the US is burdened.* Their kids don't get lost on the way to school
and their factories seem to have no problems with darkness. The golf
courses in Scottsdale also run just fine.
[/quote]
People visiting from out of state do get confused though. I was boggled
to find that hotel check-in time was an hour later than expected.
It makes more sense at higher latitudes like the UK where the summer
daytime is extremely long and the winter sun barely scrapes over the
horizon. But even there it is the daylight saving time which would save
most lives. The statistics are clear enough leaving for work in the dark
and coming home in the light has fewer accidents than going to work in
the light and returning tired in the dark.
[quote]
I don't get it either. In my opinion, we should simply switch
everything to UTC and have done with it. As that would make sense, I
give it a very low probability of happening.
* Yeah, and parts of Indiana. Because someone will mention it...
[/quote]
Must make the trains and planes timetables a nightmare.
Regards,
Martin Brown |
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| Quadibloc... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:43 am |
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On Nov 2, 7:31 am, Chris L Peterson <c... at (no spam) alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
[quote]Studies have shown that it does save some energy. My question (which
I've never seen addressed) is if that small energy savings justifies the
expense of the time shift itself- software and hardware must compensate,
there must be lost productivity during the transition, and I read last
year of a study showing a rise in heart attacks during the transition
(the same thing happens to people who have traveled by air and are
experiencing jet lag). It doesn't seem to me that the benefits are
justified by the expense.
[/quote]
While it is an inconvenience, as long as we remain dependent on fossil
fuel for energy, it would seem that almost anything within reason
would be justified. If this were not the case, if energy supplies
simply were not a serious problem, then we could do away with daylight
savings time - and the other significant problem, car accidents for
people returning home from work, could be dealt with by putting in
brighter streetlamps. (But then there's light pollution...)
John Savard |
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| William Hamblen... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:53 am |
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On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 00:21:13 -0800 (PST), "Chris.B" <chris.b at (no spam) nypost.dk>
wrote:
[quote]Daylight saving time was originally a philanthropic gesture to give
factory workers free time in daylight when long working hours under
poor lighting conditions were far more commonplace. Now everybody goes
home to watch TV and browse, instead of enjoying daylight in the fresh
air, it no longer makes as much sense to adjust the clocks.
[/quote]
Benjamin Franklin proposed in a satirical article that Parisians
should set their clocks ahead because no-one in Paris rose before
noon, and it would save candles. The Germans and the British did it
for real in 1916 as a wartime measure. Daylight saving time doesn't
save daylight, there's just as much as there always is, and doesn't
save electricity.
Bud |
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| Davoud... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 7:44 am |
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Dave Typinski:
[quote]* Yeah, and parts of Indiana. Because someone will mention it...
[/quote]
Martin Brown:
[quote]Must make the trains and planes timetables a nightmare.
[/quote]
They get by. It's only part of the state, in any case. That's the same
Indiana, by the way, where a law was proposed to make Pi = 3 because
the Bible sez that Pi = 3. Sanity prevailed.
I guess I'm in the minority on DST; extend it year 'round and double it
in the summer would be my choice.
Davoud
--
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.
usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm |
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| jeffinputnam... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 7:56 am |
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Davoud wrote:
[quote]Dave Typinski:
* Yeah, and parts of Indiana. Because someone will mention it...
Martin Brown:
Must make the trains and planes timetables a nightmare.
They get by. It's only part of the state, in any case. That's the same
Indiana, by the way, where a law was proposed to make Pi = 3 because
the Bible sez that Pi = 3. Sanity prevailed.
I guess I'm in the minority on DST; extend it year 'round and double it
in the summer would be my choice.
Davoud
[/quote]
On the solstice someone needs to go outside and when the sun is directly
overhead declare that to be noon then leave the clocks alone.
J |
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| Martin Brown... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 7:57 am |
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William Hamblen wrote:
[quote]On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 00:21:13 -0800 (PST), "Chris.B" <chris.b at (no spam) nypost.dk
wrote:
Daylight saving time was originally a philanthropic gesture to give
factory workers free time in daylight when long working hours under
poor lighting conditions were far more commonplace. Now everybody goes
home to watch TV and browse, instead of enjoying daylight in the fresh
air, it no longer makes as much sense to adjust the clocks.
Benjamin Franklin proposed in a satirical article that Parisians
should set their clocks ahead because no-one in Paris rose before
noon, and it would save candles. The Germans and the British did it
for real in 1916 as a wartime measure. Daylight saving time doesn't
save daylight, there's just as much as there always is, and doesn't
save electricity.
[/quote]
Actually it does significantly reduce the incidence of accidents both on
the road and the railways. The latter effect was first observed during
WWI. Essentially travelling home tired and in the dark is intrinsically
more dangerous. In the UK at least there is a net saving in electric
lighting from having daylight saving time in the summer. Using DST in
the winter has been tried but even though it saved lives it was
unpopular - mostly with dairy farmers who had to get up even earlier.
Even with DST it doesn't really go dark here in the UK summer until 11pm
and we never get properly dark out of astronomical twilight.
There was a surreal private members UK debate about it a couple of years
back - it came to nought
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2007-01-26b.1674.1
But the minister did concede that the transport research laboratory
estimate of 100 lives and 400 KSI would be saved by adopting permanent
daylight saving time and/or double daylight saving in summer.
Regards,
Martin Brown |
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| Chris L Peterson... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:31 am |
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On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 05:53:13 -0600, William Hamblen
<william.hamblen at (no spam) earthlink.net> wrote:
[quote]Benjamin Franklin proposed in a satirical article that Parisians
should set their clocks ahead because no-one in Paris rose before
noon, and it would save candles. The Germans and the British did it
for real in 1916 as a wartime measure. Daylight saving time doesn't
save daylight, there's just as much as there always is, and doesn't
save electricity.
[/quote]
Studies have shown that it does save some energy. My question (which
I've never seen addressed) is if that small energy savings justifies the
expense of the time shift itself- software and hardware must compensate,
there must be lost productivity during the transition, and I read last
year of a study showing a rise in heart attacks during the transition
(the same thing happens to people who have traveled by air and are
experiencing jet lag). It doesn't seem to me that the benefits are
justified by the expense.
_________________________________________________
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com |
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| TBerk... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:48 pm |
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On Nov 2, 2:07 am, Martin Brown <|||newspam... at (no spam) nezumi.demon.co.uk>
wrote:
[quote]It makes more sense at higher latitudes like the UK where the summer
daytime is extremely long and the winter sun barely scrapes over the
horizon. But even there it is the daylight saving time which would save
most lives. The statistics are clear enough leaving for work in the dark
and coming home in the light has fewer accidents than going to work in
the light and returning tired in the dark.
[/quote]
So, have go to work in the Dark then.
berk |
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