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| Ruud Harmsen... |
 Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:48 am |
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Mon, 02 Nov 2009 11:15:34 GMT: John Atkinson <johnacko at (no spam) bigpond.com>:
in sci.lang:
[quote]Ruud Harmsen wrote:
LEE Sau Dan <danlee at (no spam) informatik.uni-freiburg.de>: in sci.lang:
"alan" == alan <in_flagrante at (no spam) hotmail.com> writes:
alan> The "final consonantism", however, is the same. BTW, if the
alan> -s in maths is not a plural morpheme, what is it?
What is the "-s" in the following words, then?
"linguistics", "phonetics", "informatics", "economics", "physics",
"optics", "mechanics", "hydraulics", "dynamics".
Linguistics is interesting, isn't it?
It may be interesting to look at the Dutch equivalents. Endings vary,
but none of them has a final s:
Linguïstiek, fonetiek, informatica, economie, fysica, optiek/optica,
mechanica, hydrauliek/hydraulica, dynamica.
Aren't those final "-a"s originally plurals too though -- Latin neuter
plurals?
[/quote]
I suppose so. But we don't feel them as plurals. But then, the
official plural of museum, musea, is often misinterpreted as singular
and given the incorrect plural "musea's".
[quote]The rest seem to be simply respelled loans from French.
[/quote]
Probably, yes.
[quote]Except for
"economie" which appears to be from the French for "economy' -- the
French for "economics" is "économique".
[/quote]
I recently learnt that French orthographe is not someone who spells
right, but equivalent to English orthography and Dutch orthografie.
Since the French got all these
[quote]from Latin too, it seems that they got changed from plural to singular
in the process (since Latin "-a" standardly > French "-e" mute in loans).
[/quote]
Media (originally the plural of medium) _I_ still interpret as plural
in Dutch, but hardly any of my fellow Dutch speakers still agrees: it
now invariably gets a singular verb.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com |
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| Christian Weisgerber... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:58 am |
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Peter T. Daniels <grammatim at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
[quote]Dr Johnson famously has "physick" alongside "musick." (One of
Webster's successes was the dismissal of those intrusive k's once and
for all.)
[/quote]
How did that make its way into British spelling?
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy at (no spam) mips.inka.de |
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| Harlan Messinger... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 7:51 am |
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Ruud Harmsen wrote:
[quote]Mon, 02 Nov 2009 15:33:15 +0800: LEE Sau Dan
danlee at (no spam) informatik.uni-freiburg.de>: in sci.lang:
"alan" == alan <in_flagrante at (no spam) hotmail.com> writes:
alan> The "final consonantism", however, is the same. BTW, if the
alan> -s in maths is not a plural morpheme, what is it?
What is the "-s" in the following words, then?
"linguistics", "phonetics", "informatics", "economics", "physics",
"optics", "mechanics", "hydraulics", "dynamics".
It may be interesting to look at the Dutch equivalents. Endings vary,
but none of them has a final s:
Linguïstiek, fonetiek, informatica, economie, fysica, optiek/optica,
mechanica, hydrauliek/hydraulica, dynamica.
[/quote]
French has "maths", first attested by the TLFi from 1856 as "abréviation
de mathématiques". Which leads to something I didn't realize, which
means my usage has always been incorrect: whereas the French names of
some other fields of study are "l'économique", "la linguistique",
"l'informatique", and "la physique", the French equivalent of
"mathematics" is "les mathématiques".
It's curious that this distinction found in the full form of the French
name for "mathematics" would correspond to the apparently
early-20th-century development in the UK English short form: The OED
shows attestations back only to 1911. Its etymology references the
French form "maths" and mentions its 1856 attestation, "Compare earlier
MATH n.3 and French maths (1856 in form math's)", which seems to imply a
conjectured connection. |
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| LEE Sau Dan... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:35 am |
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[quote]"Peter" == Peter T Daniels <grammatim at (no spam) verizon.net> writes:
[/quote]
alan> The "final consonantism", however, is the same. BTW, if the -s
alan> in maths is not a plural morpheme, what is it?
[quote]What is the "-s" in the following words, then?
"linguistics", "phonetics", "informatics", "economics",
"physics", "optics", "mechanics", "hydraulics", "dynamics".
[/quote]
Peter> And none of the above is abbreviated/contracted to its first
Peter> syllable plus its final -s! ("Econ" is the only one that's
Peter> regularly abbreviated, and it doesn't become "econs," does
Peter> it?)
But "econ" has 2 syllables. "Maths" has got only one.
--
Lee Sau Dan §õ¦u´° ~{ at (no spam) nJX6X~}
E-mail: danlee at (no spam) informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee |
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| LEE Sau Dan... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:37 am |
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[quote]"Harlan" == Harlan Messinger <hmessinger.removethis at (no spam) comcast.net> writes:
[/quote]
Harlan> whereas the French names of some other fields of study are
Harlan> "l'économique", "la linguistique", "l'informatique", and "la
Harlan> physique", the French equivalent of "mathematics" is "les
Harlan> mathématiques".
Maybe, "les mathématiques" used to be considered a collection, a
collection of the branches of geometry, algebra, etc.?
--
Lee Sau Dan æŽå®ˆæ•¦ ~{ at (no spam) nJX6X~}
E-mail: danlee at (no spam) informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee |
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| Harlan Messinger... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:06 am |
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LEE Sau Dan wrote:
[quote]"Harlan" == Harlan Messinger <hmessinger.removethis at (no spam) comcast.net> writes:
Harlan> whereas the French names of some other fields of study are
Harlan> "l'économique", "la linguistique", "l'informatique", and "la
Harlan> physique", the French equivalent of "mathematics" is "les
Harlan> mathématiques".
Maybe, "les mathématiques" used to be considered a collection, a
collection of the branches of geometry, algebra, etc.?
[/quote]
Interesting conjecture. Along the lines of "the sciences" and "the
humanities", then. |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:12 am |
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On Nov 2, 11:58 am, na... at (no spam) mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) wrote:
[quote]Peter T. Daniels <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
Dr Johnson famously has "physick" alongside "musick." (One of
Webster's successes was the dismissal of those intrusive k's once and
for all.)
How did that make its way into British spelling?
[/quote]
There wasn't any standard spelling before Dr Johnson's Dictionary. He
didn't need to explain to anyone why he made the choices he did. But
they spent the rest of the 18th century trying to rationalize English
spelling (dictionary competition was big business), and Webster took
bits and pieces from here and there. |
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| Harlan Messinger... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:04 am |
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Peter T. Daniels wrote:
[quote]On Nov 2, 10:06 am, Harlan Messinger
hmessinger.removet... at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote:
LEE Sau Dan wrote:
"Harlan" == Harlan Messinger <hmessinger.removet... at (no spam) comcast.net> writes:
Harlan> whereas the French names of some other fields of study are
Harlan> "l'économique", "la linguistique", "l'informatique", and "la
Harlan> physique", the French equivalent of "mathematics" is "les
Harlan> mathématiques".
Maybe, "les mathématiques" used to be considered a collection, a
collection of the branches of geometry, algebra, etc.?
Interesting conjecture. Along the lines of "the sciences" and "the
humanities", then.
Is there reason to suppose a count noun "a mathematic"? Such that
geometry, algebra, etc., would be different mathematics, rather than
branches of mathematick?
[/quote]
Not that I know of. One doesn't speak of "a humanity" or "a liberal art"
either, so there is no necessary reason to suppose ?"a mathematic" and I
doubt it, but of course I can't say for sure.
[quote]Dr Johnson famously has "physick" alongside "musick." (One of
Webster's successes was the dismissal of those intrusive k's once and
for all.) But when was the science of physics named?[/quote] |
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| Joachim Pense... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:33 pm |
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Peter T. Daniels (in sci.lang):
[quote]On Nov 2, 10:06Â am, Harlan Messinger
hmessinger.removet... at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote:
LEE Sau Dan wrote:
"Harlan" == Harlan Messinger <hmessinger.removet... at (no spam) comcast.net
writes:
Harlan> whereas the French names of some other fields of study are
Harlan> "l'économique", "la linguistique", "l'informatique", and "la
Harlan> physique", the French equivalent of "mathematics" is "les
Harlan> mathématiques".
Maybe,  "les  mathématiques"  used  to  be considered  a  collection,
a collection of the branches of geometry, algebra, etc.?
Interesting conjecture. Along the lines of "the sciences" and "the
humanities", then.
Is there reason to suppose a count noun "a mathematic"? Such that
geometry, algebra, etc., would be different mathematics, rather than
branches of mathematick?
[/quote]
The influential French group of mathematicians who published under the
pseudonym "Nicholas Bourbaki" called their book series "Éléments de
mathématique", making a point of the singular. I think that usage didn't
stick.
Joachim |
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| António Marques... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:22 pm |
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On Nov 2, 8:22 am, Ruud Harmsen <r... at (no spam) rudhar.eu> wrote:
[quote]Mon, 02 Nov 2009 15:33:15 +0800: LEE Sau Dan
dan... at (no spam) informatik.uni-freiburg.de>: in sci.lang:
"alan" == alan <in_flagra... at (no spam) hotmail.com> writes:
alan> The "final consonantism", however, is the same. BTW, if the
alan> -s in maths is not a plural morpheme, what is it?
What is the "-s" in the following words, then?
"linguistics", "phonetics", "informatics", "economics", "physics",
"optics", "mechanics", "hydraulics", "dynamics".
It may be interesting to look at the Dutch equivalents. Endings vary,
but none of them has a final s:
Linguïstiek, fonetiek, informatica, economie, fysica, optiek/optica,
mechanica, hydrauliek/hydraulica, dynamica.
[/quote]
You still hear many people using -as in portuguese - Humanísticas,
Matemáticas, Físico-Químicas. Afaict all of those are short forms for
'Ciências [something]', and that makes me believe the english forms
are a compromise: 'linguistic/mathematical/physical sciences' ->
linguistics/mathematics/physics. If that's correct, then the english -
s really *is* the plural morpheme. |
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| Joe Fineman... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:39 pm |
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"Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim at (no spam) verizon.net> writes:
[quote]But when was the science of physics named?
[/quote]
In the general sense (= natural philosophy), the word (or rather its
Greek etymon) goes back to Aristotle. More recently, it seems to be a
permanent term for what is left over after more special sciences have
staked their claims.
--
--- Joe Fineman joe_f at (no spam) verizon.net
||: The idea of appearing modest appeals to my vanity.  | |
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| Oliver Cromm... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:30 pm |
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* "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 2, 3:49 am, "alan" <in_flagra... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
On Nov 1, 11:33 pm, LEE Sau Dan <dan... at (no spam) informatik.uni-freiburg.de> wrote:
"alan" == alan <in_flagra... at (no spam) hotmail.com> writes:
alan> The "final consonantism", however, is the same. BTW, if the
alan> -s in maths is not a plural morpheme, what is it?
What is the "-s" in the following words, then?
"linguistics", "phonetics", "informatics", "economics", "physics",
"optics", "mechanics", "hydraulics", "dynamics".
I would have called them plural. While the online Merriam Webster seems to
think so as well, defining their function as "noun plural but singular in
construction" (in which case the -s *would* be a plural morpheme), the
online Cambridge prefers to think of them as "noun [U] " ("[U]" designating
" Uncountable or singular noun: a noun that has no plural" (in which case
the -s would *not* be a plural morpheme; I have, however, no idea what kind
of a morpheme that -s would be).
Since Peter doesn't consider it pluralizing, perhaps he could explain what
kind of a morpheme he'd call it . . .
It's what my mentor the late Assyriologist Erica Reiner would call a
"miscut." The morpheme isn't {s} but {ics}.
[/quote]
Great ,that explains "physical", "economical", "optical", "mechanical",
"hydraulic", "dynamic" etc. Some of them have an <ic> suffix, some an
<ical>.
Or not.
--
GUGEL, f., m., kapuze, mlat. cuculla, cucullus, ahd. cucalun cucullam
GRIMM, Deutsches Wörterbuch |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:16 pm |
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On Nov 2, 8:22 pm, António Marques <ento... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 2, 8:22 am, Ruud Harmsen <r... at (no spam) rudhar.eu> wrote:
Mon, 02 Nov 2009 15:33:15 +0800: LEE Sau Dan
dan... at (no spam) informatik.uni-freiburg.de>: in sci.lang:
"alan" == alan <in_flagra... at (no spam) hotmail.com> writes:
alan> The "final consonantism", however, is the same. BTW, if the
alan> -s in maths is not a plural morpheme, what is it?
What is the "-s" in the following words, then?
"linguistics", "phonetics", "informatics", "economics", "physics",
"optics", "mechanics", "hydraulics", "dynamics".
It may be interesting to look at the Dutch equivalents. Endings vary,
but none of them has a final s:
Linguïstiek, fonetiek, informatica, economie, fysica, optiek/optica,
mechanica, hydrauliek/hydraulica, dynamica.
You still hear many people using -as in portuguese - Humanísticas,
Matemáticas, Físico-Químicas. Afaict all of those are short forms for
'Ciências [something]', and that makes me believe the english forms
are a compromise: 'linguistic/mathematical/physical sciences' -
linguistics/mathematics/physics. If that's correct, then the english -
s really *is* the plural morpheme.-
[/quote]
Linguistics itself was named far too late to have participated in such
phrases (for which I doubt there is any early evidence). |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:18 pm |
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On Nov 2, 11:43 pm, Nathan Sanders <nsand... at (no spam) williams.edu> wrote:
[quote]In article <lkg4s6xp3c.... at (no spam) news.ducksburg.com>,
Adam Funk <a24... at (no spam) ducksburg.com> wrote:
On 2009-11-02, alan wrote:
On Nov 1, 11:33 pm, LEE Sau Dan <dan... at (no spam) informatik.uni-freiburg.de> wrote:
"alan" == alan <in_flagra... at (no spam) hotmail.com> writes:
alan> The "final consonantism", however, is the same. BTW, if the
alan> -s in maths is not a plural morpheme, what is it?
What is the "-s" in the following words, then?
"linguistics", "phonetics", "informatics", "economics", "physics",
"optics", "mechanics", "hydraulics", "dynamics".
I would have called them plural. While the online Merriam Webster seems to
think so as well, defining their function as "noun plural but singular in
construction" (in which case the -s *would* be a plural morpheme), the
online Cambridge prefers to think of them as "noun [U] " ("[U]"
designating
" Uncountable or singular noun: a noun that has no plural" (in which case
the -s would *not* be a plural morpheme; I have, however, no idea what kind
of a morpheme that -s would be).
Since Peter doesn't consider it pluralizing, perhaps he could explain what
kind of a morpheme he'd call it . . .
AFAICT they are always treated as singular in English, e.g.,
"Linguistics [economics, etc.] is interesting and it is..."; same with
"math" (AmE), "maths" (BrE), and "mathematics" (both). ("Les
mathématiques" is unusual in French; most are like "la physique".)
What's the basis for saying these words have a plural function in
English?
Some of them do have plural uses, when not talking about the fields of
study, but rather, conditions or calculations:
The economics/physics/mathematics are complicated.
I also just realized that, contrary to an earlier claim in this
thread, there is at least one American English analogue to "maths"
that is almost always plural when referring to a field of study:
I'm taking stats/*stat next term.
[/quote]
That word is unusual in that the name of the field is the same as the
plural of the name of each thing it studies, so it's both count and
mass. |
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| Adam Funk... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:20 pm |
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On 2009-11-02, alan wrote:
[quote]On Nov 1, 11:33 pm, LEE Sau Dan <dan... at (no spam) informatik.uni-freiburg.de> wrote:
"alan" == alan <in_flagra... at (no spam) hotmail.com> writes:
alan> The "final consonantism", however, is the same. BTW, if the
alan> -s in maths is not a plural morpheme, what is it?
What is the "-s" in the following words, then?
"linguistics", "phonetics", "informatics", "economics", "physics",
"optics", "mechanics", "hydraulics", "dynamics".
I would have called them plural. While the online Merriam Webster seems to
think so as well, defining their function as "noun plural but singular in
construction" (in which case the -s *would* be a plural morpheme), the
online Cambridge prefers to think of them as "noun [U] " ("[U]" designating
" Uncountable or singular noun: a noun that has no plural" (in which case
the -s would *not* be a plural morpheme; I have, however, no idea what kind
of a morpheme that -s would be).
Since Peter doesn't consider it pluralizing, perhaps he could explain what
kind of a morpheme he'd call it . . .
[/quote]
AFAICT they are always treated as singular in English, e.g.,
"Linguistics [economics, etc.] is interesting and it is..."; same with
"math" (AmE), "maths" (BrE), and "mathematics" (both). ("Les
mathématiques" is unusual in French; most are like "la physique".)
What's the basis for saying these words have a plural function in
English?
--
No right of private conversation was enumerated in the Constitution.
I don't suppose it occurred to anyone at the time that it could be
prevented. [Whitfield Diffie] |
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