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| Author |
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| Frogwatch... |
 Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:20 am |
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Guest
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Lets engage in a bit of alternative history. If you could change
something small that would cause the defenders of Wake Island to hold
out for a longer time, what would it be? Let's be reasonable about
this and make it plausible.
If the defenders had any idea of the way they'd be treated after
surrender, would they have been able to hold out for a few more days?
If so, what would this have accomplished in terms of using up Japanese
resources?
I once read that they had only one good AA gun sight. if they had
more , would the toll of Japanese planes have been higher? What if
they had a couple more AA guns?
What if they had a gotten a shipment of several miles of barbed wire
to put on beaches?
What if they had a few cases of anti-personnel mines?
Would a couple more aircraft helped?
Once they surrendered they did not blow up the airstrip, what if thye
had blown it, what effect would this have had?
The US tried to relieve Wake but turned back after getting a report of
two IJN carriers and 2 bb in the area. Could supplies have been
dropped via seaplane? What supplies would have been most helpful?
Why no US subs in the area?
Why did the jap commander kill the 98 POWs when he thought he was
about to be overrun in 1943, this makes no sense.
Overall, the Marines did an amazing job sinking 5 japanese ships and
killing over 900 Japanese to their toll of about 57 deaths and 157
captured. |
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| Jack Linthicum... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:49 am |
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Guest
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On Oct 31, 4:20 pm, Frogwatch <ohara... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote:
[quote]Lets engage in a bit of alternative history. If you could change
something small that would cause the defenders of Wake Island to hold
out for a longer time, what would it be? Let's be reasonable about
this and make it plausible.
If the defenders had any idea of the way they'd be treated after
surrender, would they have been able to hold out for a few more days?
If so, what would this have accomplished in terms of using up Japanese
resources?
I once read that they had only one good AA gun sight. if they had
more , would the toll of Japanese planes have been higher? What if
they had a couple more AA guns?
What if they had a gotten a shipment of several miles of barbed wire
to put on beaches?
What if they had a few cases of anti-personnel mines?
Would a couple more aircraft helped?
Once they surrendered they did not blow up the airstrip, what if thye
had blown it, what effect would this have had?
The US tried to relieve Wake but turned back after getting a report of
two IJN carriers and 2 bb in the area. Could supplies have been
dropped via seaplane? What supplies would have been most helpful?
Why no US subs in the area?
Why did the jap commander kill the 98 POWs when he thought he was
about to be overrun in 1943, this makes no sense.
Overall, the Marines did an amazing job sinking 5 japanese ships and
killing over 900 Japanese to their toll of about 57 deaths and 157
captured.
[/quote]
There is a forum for that at soc.history.what-if |
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| Jack Linthicum... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 12:23 pm |
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Guest
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On Oct 31, 5:57 pm, Arved Sandstrom <dces... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
[quote]Jack Linthicum wrote:
On Oct 31, 4:20 pm, Frogwatch <ohara... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote:
Lets engage in a bit of alternative history. If you could change
something small that would cause the defenders of Wake Island to hold
out for a longer time, what would it be? Let's be reasonable about
this and make it plausible.
If the defenders had any idea of the way they'd be treated after
surrender, would they have been able to hold out for a few more days?
If so, what would this have accomplished in terms of using up Japanese
resources?
I once read that they had only one good AA gun sight. if they had
more , would the toll of Japanese planes have been higher? What if
they had a couple more AA guns?
What if they had a gotten a shipment of several miles of barbed wire
to put on beaches?
What if they had a few cases of anti-personnel mines?
Would a couple more aircraft helped?
Once they surrendered they did not blow up the airstrip, what if thye
had blown it, what effect would this have had?
The US tried to relieve Wake but turned back after getting a report of
two IJN carriers and 2 bb in the area. Could supplies have been
dropped via seaplane? What supplies would have been most helpful?
Why no US subs in the area?
Why did the jap commander kill the 98 POWs when he thought he was
about to be overrun in 1943, this makes no sense.
Overall, the Marines did an amazing job sinking 5 japanese ships and
killing over 900 Japanese to their toll of about 57 deaths and 157
captured.
There is a forum for that at soc.history.what-if
I'd venture to say that SMN is pretty appropriate for alternative
*naval* history. What Frog is doing is wargaming, and last I checked
that's part of military science.
AHS
[/quote]
Okay, let's start with "how long is long" when holding out longer is
the object. Do you spend the resources you would eventually use for
the Doolittle Raid on saving Wake? How do you supply them? The use of
a fairly strong task force was stopped by the possibility of major
Japanese forces in the area. Twelve days later the Japanese came back
in force on December 23. (By the way I am getting my data from the
same place Frog did, Wiki). What do you buy for those twelves days?
What would you buy if you stayed there? I read Wake as right next to
the Marshalls, Kwajaelin, etc. |
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| deemsbill at (no spam) aol.com... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 12:41 pm |
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Guest
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On Oct 31, 4:20 pm, Frogwatch <ohara... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote:
[quote]Lets engage in a bit of alternative history. If you could change
something small that would cause the defenders of Wake Island to hold
out for a longer time, what would it be? Let's be reasonable about
this and make it plausible.
If the defenders had any idea of the way they'd be treated after
surrender, would they have been able to hold out for a few more days?
If so, what would this have accomplished in terms of using up Japanese
resources?
I once read that they had only one good AA gun sight. if they had
more , would the toll of Japanese planes have been higher? What if
they had a couple more AA guns?
What if they had a gotten a shipment of several miles of barbed wire
to put on beaches?
What if they had a few cases of anti-personnel mines?
Would a couple more aircraft helped?
Once they surrendered they did not blow up the airstrip, what if thye
had blown it, what effect would this have had?
The US tried to relieve Wake but turned back after getting a report of
two IJN carriers and 2 bb in the area. Could supplies have been
dropped via seaplane? What supplies would have been most helpful?
Why no US subs in the area?
Why did the jap commander kill the 98 POWs when he thought he was
about to be overrun in 1943, this makes no sense.
Overall, the Marines did an amazing job sinking 5 japanese ships and
killing over 900 Japanese to their toll of about 57 deaths and 157
captured.
[/quote]
Give them full AA and AS batteries with enough ammo. This would
include radar (least likely) as well as range and height finders which
had been left at Pearl.
Enough time to build revetments for the Wildcats, dig in the Avgas
stores, spare parts for the planes, AA, and AS guns. Enough qualified
mechanics to work on the planes. A few more Wildcats would've been
nice. Maybe a few SBDs.
The problem was, Wake wasn't defensible as long as the Japanese
wanted it. It might've held out longer, but the Japanese never made a
major effort...which they would've done if necessary because they
couldn't afford to leave Wake as a working US base. |
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| deemsbill at (no spam) aol.com... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:02 pm |
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Guest
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On Oct 31, 6:48 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <raymond-oh... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
[quote]deemsb... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote in message
news:104f9e6b-2fd2-4913-aa48-2348c7a80f66 at (no spam) a21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 31, 4:20 pm, Frogwatch <ohara... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote:
Lets engage in a bit of alternative history. If you could change
something small that would cause the defenders of Wake Island to hold
out for a longer time, what would it be? Let's be reasonable about
this and make it plausible.
If the defenders had any idea of the way they'd be treated after
surrender, would they have been able to hold out for a few more days?
If so, what would this have accomplished in terms of using up Japanese
resources?
I once read that they had only one good AA gun sight. if they had
more , would the toll of Japanese planes have been higher? What if
they had a couple more AA guns?
What if they had a gotten a shipment of several miles of barbed wire
to put on beaches?
What if they had a few cases of anti-personnel mines?
Would a couple more aircraft helped?
Once they surrendered they did not blow up the airstrip, what if thye
had blown it, what effect would this have had?
The US tried to relieve Wake but turned back after getting a report of
two IJN carriers and 2 bb in the area. Could supplies have been
dropped via seaplane? What supplies would have been most helpful?
Why no US subs in the area?
Why did the jap commander kill the 98 POWs when he thought he was
about to be overrun in 1943, this makes no sense.
Overall, the Marines did an amazing job sinking 5 japanese ships and
killing over 900 Japanese to their toll of about 57 deaths and 157
captured.
Give them full AA and AS batteries with enough ammo. This would
include radar (least likely) as well as range and height finders which
had been left at Pearl.
Enough time to build revetments for the Wildcats, dig in the Avgas
stores, spare parts for the planes, AA, and AS guns. Enough qualified
mechanics to work on the planes. A few more Wildcats would've been
nice. Maybe a few SBDs.
The problem was, Wake wasn't defensible as long as the Japanese
wanted it. It might've held out longer, but the Japanese never made a
major effort...which they would've done if necessary because they
couldn't afford to leave Wake as a working US base.
============================================================================
Wake was very isolated and exposed. the USN could have taken it back anytime
but didn't see it as a threat or worth the effort.
the Japanese got no benefit from it that was worth the losses they incurred
getting it.-
[/quote]
They didn't think they were going to suffer the losses. That's why
they sent the second team at first. The Japanese didn't think they
could afford to leave a US base at Wake. It was exposed, but would've
been a real thorn in their side if PBYs and B-17s were based there.
Taking Wake removed that threat and gave them a land base for recon. |
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| Frogwatch... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:21 pm |
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Guest
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On Oct 31, 7:02 pm, "deemsb... at (no spam) aol.com" <deemsb... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote:
[quote]On Oct 31, 6:48 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <raymond-oh... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
deemsb... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote in message
news:104f9e6b-2fd2-4913-aa48-2348c7a80f66 at (no spam) a21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com....
On Oct 31, 4:20 pm, Frogwatch <ohara... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote:
Lets engage in a bit of alternative history. If you could change
something small that would cause the defenders of Wake Island to hold
out for a longer time, what would it be? Let's be reasonable about
this and make it plausible.
If the defenders had any idea of the way they'd be treated after
surrender, would they have been able to hold out for a few more days?
If so, what would this have accomplished in terms of using up Japanese
resources?
I once read that they had only one good AA gun sight. if they had
more , would the toll of Japanese planes have been higher? What if
they had a couple more AA guns?
What if they had a gotten a shipment of several miles of barbed wire
to put on beaches?
What if they had a few cases of anti-personnel mines?
Would a couple more aircraft helped?
Once they surrendered they did not blow up the airstrip, what if thye
had blown it, what effect would this have had?
The US tried to relieve Wake but turned back after getting a report of
two IJN carriers and 2 bb in the area. Could supplies have been
dropped via seaplane? What supplies would have been most helpful?
Why no US subs in the area?
Why did the jap commander kill the 98 POWs when he thought he was
about to be overrun in 1943, this makes no sense.
Overall, the Marines did an amazing job sinking 5 japanese ships and
killing over 900 Japanese to their toll of about 57 deaths and 157
captured.
Give them full AA and AS batteries with enough ammo. This would
include radar (least likely) as well as range and height finders which
had been left at Pearl.
Enough time to build revetments for the Wildcats, dig in the Avgas
stores, spare parts for the planes, AA, and AS guns. Enough qualified
mechanics to work on the planes. A few more Wildcats would've been
nice. Maybe a few SBDs.
The problem was, Wake wasn't defensible as long as the Japanese
wanted it. It might've held out longer, but the Japanese never made a
major effort...which they would've done if necessary because they
couldn't afford to leave Wake as a working US base.
============================================================================
Wake was very isolated and exposed. the USN could have taken it back anytime
but didn't see it as a threat or worth the effort.
the Japanese got no benefit from it that was worth the losses they incurred
getting it.-
They didn't think they were going to suffer the losses. That's why
they sent the second team at first. The Japanese didn't think they
could afford to leave a US base at Wake. It was exposed, but would've
been a real thorn in their side if PBYs and B-17s were based there.
Taking Wake removed that threat and gave them a land base for recon.
[/quote]
Being extremely impressed at how much 157 Marines did to the Japanese,
let's play the game of "What tiny thing might have enabled em to do
even better although they eventually lose. So, would it have been
sights on the rest of the AA, a bit of barbed wire, a case of mines?
What little lthing, not a bunch of things might have enabled em to
sink another ship or down a few more planes, etc?
Would sights on the AA have resulted in fewer Marine plane losses in
the Japs 1st bomber attack? The Marines lost 8 out of 12 planes in
that one attack. |
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| Frogwatch... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:46 pm |
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Guest
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On Oct 31, 7:32 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <raymond-oh... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
[quote]"Frogwatch" <dboh... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:09a4f2e1-1b69-4f84-9faf-b94b1e01a793 at (no spam) a31g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 31, 7:02 pm, "deemsb... at (no spam) aol.com" <deemsb... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote:
On Oct 31, 6:48 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <raymond-oh... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
deemsb... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote in message
news:104f9e6b-2fd2-4913-aa48-2348c7a80f66 at (no spam) a21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com....
On Oct 31, 4:20 pm, Frogwatch <ohara... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote:
Lets engage in a bit of alternative history. If you could change
something small that would cause the defenders of Wake Island to hold
out for a longer time, what would it be? Let's be reasonable about
this and make it plausible.
If the defenders had any idea of the way they'd be treated after
surrender, would they have been able to hold out for a few more days?
If so, what would this have accomplished in terms of using up Japanese
resources?
I once read that they had only one good AA gun sight. if they had
more , would the toll of Japanese planes have been higher? What if
they had a couple more AA guns?
What if they had a gotten a shipment of several miles of barbed wire
to put on beaches?
What if they had a few cases of anti-personnel mines?
Would a couple more aircraft helped?
Once they surrendered they did not blow up the airstrip, what if thye
had blown it, what effect would this have had?
The US tried to relieve Wake but turned back after getting a report of
two IJN carriers and 2 bb in the area. Could supplies have been
dropped via seaplane? What supplies would have been most helpful?
Why no US subs in the area?
Why did the jap commander kill the 98 POWs when he thought he was
about to be overrun in 1943, this makes no sense.
Overall, the Marines did an amazing job sinking 5 japanese ships and
killing over 900 Japanese to their toll of about 57 deaths and 157
captured.
Give them full AA and AS batteries with enough ammo. This would
include radar (least likely) as well as range and height finders which
had been left at Pearl.
Enough time to build revetments for the Wildcats, dig in the Avgas
stores, spare parts for the planes, AA, and AS guns. Enough qualified
mechanics to work on the planes. A few more Wildcats would've been
nice. Maybe a few SBDs.
The problem was, Wake wasn't defensible as long as the Japanese
wanted it. It might've held out longer, but the Japanese never made a
major effort...which they would've done if necessary because they
couldn't afford to leave Wake as a working US base.
============================================================================
Wake was very isolated and exposed. the USN could have taken it back
anytime
but didn't see it as a threat or worth the effort.
the Japanese got no benefit from it that was worth the losses they
incurred
getting it.-
They didn't think they were going to suffer the losses. That's why
they sent the second team at first. The Japanese didn't think they
could afford to leave a US base at Wake. It was exposed, but would've
been a real thorn in their side if PBYs and B-17s were based there.
Taking Wake removed that threat and gave them a land base for recon.
Being extremely impressed at how much 157 Marines did to the Japanese,
let's play the game of "What tiny thing might have enabled em to do
even better although they eventually lose. So, would it have been
sights on the rest of the AA, a bit of barbed wire, a case of mines?
What little lthing, not a bunch of things might have enabled em to
sink another ship or down a few more planes, etc?
Would sights on the AA have resulted in fewer Marine plane losses in
the Japs 1st bomber attack? The Marines lost 8 out of 12 planes in
that one attack.
====================================================================
the garrison was over 400. where did you get your figure?
[/quote]
Ray: By misreading Wiki. You are correct, over 400. Still, very
impressive.
La N: OK, what if Obama had been born on Wake Island while it was
Japanese occupied? |
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| deemsbill at (no spam) aol.com... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 2:10 pm |
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Guest
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On Oct 31, 7:21 pm, Frogwatch <dboh... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote:
[quote]On Oct 31, 7:02 pm, "deemsb... at (no spam) aol.com" <deemsb... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote:
On Oct 31, 6:48 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <raymond-oh... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
deemsb... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote in message
news:104f9e6b-2fd2-4913-aa48-2348c7a80f66 at (no spam) a21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com....
On Oct 31, 4:20 pm, Frogwatch <ohara... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote:
Lets engage in a bit of alternative history. If you could change
something small that would cause the defenders of Wake Island to hold
out for a longer time, what would it be? Let's be reasonable about
this and make it plausible.
If the defenders had any idea of the way they'd be treated after
surrender, would they have been able to hold out for a few more days?
If so, what would this have accomplished in terms of using up Japanese
resources?
I once read that they had only one good AA gun sight. if they had
more , would the toll of Japanese planes have been higher? What if
they had a couple more AA guns?
What if they had a gotten a shipment of several miles of barbed wire
to put on beaches?
What if they had a few cases of anti-personnel mines?
Would a couple more aircraft helped?
Once they surrendered they did not blow up the airstrip, what if thye
had blown it, what effect would this have had?
The US tried to relieve Wake but turned back after getting a report of
two IJN carriers and 2 bb in the area. Could supplies have been
dropped via seaplane? What supplies would have been most helpful?
Why no US subs in the area?
Why did the jap commander kill the 98 POWs when he thought he was
about to be overrun in 1943, this makes no sense.
Overall, the Marines did an amazing job sinking 5 japanese ships and
killing over 900 Japanese to their toll of about 57 deaths and 157
captured.
Give them full AA and AS batteries with enough ammo. This would
include radar (least likely) as well as range and height finders which
had been left at Pearl.
Enough time to build revetments for the Wildcats, dig in the Avgas
stores, spare parts for the planes, AA, and AS guns. Enough qualified
mechanics to work on the planes. A few more Wildcats would've been
nice. Maybe a few SBDs.
The problem was, Wake wasn't defensible as long as the Japanese
wanted it. It might've held out longer, but the Japanese never made a
major effort...which they would've done if necessary because they
couldn't afford to leave Wake as a working US base.
============================================================================
Wake was very isolated and exposed. the USN could have taken it back anytime
but didn't see it as a threat or worth the effort.
the Japanese got no benefit from it that was worth the losses they incurred
getting it.-
They didn't think they were going to suffer the losses. That's why
they sent the second team at first. The Japanese didn't think they
could afford to leave a US base at Wake. It was exposed, but would've
been a real thorn in their side if PBYs and B-17s were based there.
Taking Wake removed that threat and gave them a land base for recon.
Being extremely impressed at how much 157 Marines did to the Japanese,
let's play the game of "What tiny thing might have enabled em to do
even better although they eventually lose. So, would it have been
sights on the rest of the AA, a bit of barbed wire, a case of mines?
What little lthing, not a bunch of things might have enabled em to
sink another ship or down a few more planes, etc?
Would sights on the AA have resulted in fewer Marine plane losses in
the Japs 1st bomber attack? The Marines lost 8 out of 12 planes in
that one attack.
[/quote]
I listed a dozen or so things that would've helped. Maybe the most
basic would be for the garrison units to be at full strength. The
defense battalion left quite a bit at Pearl. Either way, as I said
before, if the Japanese wanted Wake...and they did...it was only a
matter of time and effort. |
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| Arved Sandstrom... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 3:57 pm |
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Guest
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Jack Linthicum wrote:
[quote]On Oct 31, 4:20 pm, Frogwatch <ohara... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote:
Lets engage in a bit of alternative history. If you could change
something small that would cause the defenders of Wake Island to hold
out for a longer time, what would it be? Let's be reasonable about
this and make it plausible.
If the defenders had any idea of the way they'd be treated after
surrender, would they have been able to hold out for a few more days?
If so, what would this have accomplished in terms of using up Japanese
resources?
I once read that they had only one good AA gun sight. if they had
more , would the toll of Japanese planes have been higher? What if
they had a couple more AA guns?
What if they had a gotten a shipment of several miles of barbed wire
to put on beaches?
What if they had a few cases of anti-personnel mines?
Would a couple more aircraft helped?
Once they surrendered they did not blow up the airstrip, what if thye
had blown it, what effect would this have had?
The US tried to relieve Wake but turned back after getting a report of
two IJN carriers and 2 bb in the area. Could supplies have been
dropped via seaplane? What supplies would have been most helpful?
Why no US subs in the area?
Why did the jap commander kill the 98 POWs when he thought he was
about to be overrun in 1943, this makes no sense.
Overall, the Marines did an amazing job sinking 5 japanese ships and
killing over 900 Japanese to their toll of about 57 deaths and 157
captured.
There is a forum for that at soc.history.what-if
[/quote]
I'd venture to say that SMN is pretty appropriate for alternative
*naval* history. What Frog is doing is wargaming, and last I checked
that's part of military science.
AHS |
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| La N... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 4:18 pm |
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Arved Sandstrom wrote:
[quote]Jack Linthicum wrote:
On Oct 31, 4:20 pm, Frogwatch <ohara... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote:
Lets engage in a bit of alternative history. If you could change
something small that would cause the defenders of Wake Island to
hold out for a longer time, what would it be? Let's be reasonable
about this and make it plausible.
If the defenders had any idea of the way they'd be treated after
surrender, would they have been able to hold out for a few more
days? If so, what would this have accomplished in terms of using up
Japanese resources?
I once read that they had only one good AA gun sight. if they had
more , would the toll of Japanese planes have been higher? What if
they had a couple more AA guns?
What if they had a gotten a shipment of several miles of barbed wire
to put on beaches?
What if they had a few cases of anti-personnel mines?
Would a couple more aircraft helped?
Once they surrendered they did not blow up the airstrip, what if
thye had blown it, what effect would this have had?
The US tried to relieve Wake but turned back after getting a report
of two IJN carriers and 2 bb in the area. Could supplies have been
dropped via seaplane? What supplies would have been most helpful?
Why no US subs in the area?
Why did the jap commander kill the 98 POWs when he thought he was
about to be overrun in 1943, this makes no sense.
Overall, the Marines did an amazing job sinking 5 japanese ships and
killing over 900 Japanese to their toll of about 57 deaths and 157
captured.
There is a forum for that at soc.history.what-if
I'd venture to say that SMN is pretty appropriate for alternative
*naval* history. What Frog is doing is wargaming, and last I checked
that's part of military science.
[/quote]
And admittedly more interesting and on topic than his other hypothetical
scenarios such as what if Obama was proven to be born in Kenya ... :)
- nilita |
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| Ray O'Hara... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 4:25 pm |
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Guest
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"Frogwatch" <ohara5.0 at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:9d66b7f0-f8ae-415a-88ba-d280b381c897 at (no spam) p8g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
[quote]Lets engage in a bit of alternative history. If you could change
something small that would cause the defenders of Wake Island to hold
out for a longer time, what would it be? Let's be reasonable about
this and make it plausible.
][/quote]
You replace the inadequate2 CVs to relieve the island but he stopped to
refuel even though his ships were 3/4 full
and time was off the essence.
by the time he finished refueling and getting going again the island had
fallen. |
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| Ray O'Hara... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 4:40 pm |
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"Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthicum at (no spam) earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:8d90a139-53f1-45cb-9441-40367b8b94a1 at (no spam) d4g2000vbm.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 31, 5:57 pm, Arved Sandstrom <dces... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
[quote]Jack Linthicum wrote:
On Oct 31, 4:20 pm, Frogwatch <ohara... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote:
Lets engage in a bit of alternative history. If you could change
something small that would cause the defenders of Wake Island to hold
out for a longer time, what would it be? Let's be reasonable about
this and make it plausible.
If the defenders had any idea of the way they'd be treated after
surrender, would they have been able to hold out for a few more days?
If so, what would this have accomplished in terms of using up Japanese
resources?
I once read that they had only one good AA gun sight. if they had
more , would the toll of Japanese planes have been higher? What if
they had a couple more AA guns?
What if they had a gotten a shipment of several miles of barbed wire
to put on beaches?
What if they had a few cases of anti-personnel mines?
Would a couple more aircraft helped?
Once they surrendered they did not blow up the airstrip, what if thye
had blown it, what effect would this have had?
The US tried to relieve Wake but turned back after getting a report of
two IJN carriers and 2 bb in the area. Could supplies have been
dropped via seaplane? What supplies would have been most helpful?
Why no US subs in the area?
Why did the jap commander kill the 98 POWs when he thought he was
about to be overrun in 1943, this makes no sense.
Overall, the Marines did an amazing job sinking 5 japanese ships and
killing over 900 Japanese to their toll of about 57 deaths and 157
captured.
There is a forum for that at soc.history.what-if
I'd venture to say that SMN is pretty appropriate for alternative
*naval* history. What Frog is doing is wargaming, and last I checked
that's part of military science.
AHS
[/quote]
Okay, let's start with "how long is long" when holding out longer is
the object. Do you spend the resources you would eventually use for
the Doolittle Raid on saving Wake? How do you supply them? The use of
a fairly strong task force was stopped by the possibility of major
Japanese forces in the area. Twelve days later the Japanese came back
in force on December 23. (By the way I am getting my data from the
same place Frog did, Wiki). What do you buy for those twelves days?
What would you buy if you stayed there? I read Wake as right next to
the Marshalls, Kwajaelin, etc.
Wake could have been easily saved the respources were there. We just didn't
have the commanders with the Stomach to do it.
the best breack the U.S. got in the Pac War was that Spruance and not
Fletcher commanded the main carrier group at Midway.
Fletcher would have lost, as he always did. Even his great victory at Coral
Sea was a tactical defeat that the Japanese could have shrugged off and
contiinued on to capture Port Moresby.
where Fletcher commanded defeat followed. |
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| Ray O'Hara... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 4:48 pm |
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Guest
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<deemsbill at (no spam) aol.com> wrote in message
news:104f9e6b-2fd2-4913-aa48-2348c7a80f66 at (no spam) a21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 31, 4:20 pm, Frogwatch <ohara... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote:
[quote]Lets engage in a bit of alternative history. If you could change
something small that would cause the defenders of Wake Island to hold
out for a longer time, what would it be? Let's be reasonable about
this and make it plausible.
If the defenders had any idea of the way they'd be treated after
surrender, would they have been able to hold out for a few more days?
If so, what would this have accomplished in terms of using up Japanese
resources?
I once read that they had only one good AA gun sight. if they had
more , would the toll of Japanese planes have been higher? What if
they had a couple more AA guns?
What if they had a gotten a shipment of several miles of barbed wire
to put on beaches?
What if they had a few cases of anti-personnel mines?
Would a couple more aircraft helped?
Once they surrendered they did not blow up the airstrip, what if thye
had blown it, what effect would this have had?
The US tried to relieve Wake but turned back after getting a report of
two IJN carriers and 2 bb in the area. Could supplies have been
dropped via seaplane? What supplies would have been most helpful?
Why no US subs in the area?
Why did the jap commander kill the 98 POWs when he thought he was
about to be overrun in 1943, this makes no sense.
Overall, the Marines did an amazing job sinking 5 japanese ships and
killing over 900 Japanese to their toll of about 57 deaths and 157
captured.
[/quote]
Give them full AA and AS batteries with enough ammo. This would
include radar (least likely) as well as range and height finders which
had been left at Pearl.
Enough time to build revetments for the Wildcats, dig in the Avgas
stores, spare parts for the planes, AA, and AS guns. Enough qualified
mechanics to work on the planes. A few more Wildcats would've been
nice. Maybe a few SBDs.
The problem was, Wake wasn't defensible as long as the Japanese
wanted it. It might've held out longer, but the Japanese never made a
major effort...which they would've done if necessary because they
couldn't afford to leave Wake as a working US base.
=============================================================================
Wake was very isolated and exposed. the USN could have taken it back anytime
but didn't see it as a threat or worth the effort.
the Japanese got no benefit from it that was worth the losses they incurred
getting it. |
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| Ray O'Hara... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 5:32 pm |
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"Frogwatch" <dbohara at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:09a4f2e1-1b69-4f84-9faf-b94b1e01a793 at (no spam) a31g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 31, 7:02 pm, "deemsb... at (no spam) aol.com" <deemsb... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote:
[quote]On Oct 31, 6:48 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <raymond-oh... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
deemsb... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote in message
news:104f9e6b-2fd2-4913-aa48-2348c7a80f66 at (no spam) a21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 31, 4:20 pm, Frogwatch <ohara... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote:
Lets engage in a bit of alternative history. If you could change
something small that would cause the defenders of Wake Island to hold
out for a longer time, what would it be? Let's be reasonable about
this and make it plausible.
If the defenders had any idea of the way they'd be treated after
surrender, would they have been able to hold out for a few more days?
If so, what would this have accomplished in terms of using up Japanese
resources?
I once read that they had only one good AA gun sight. if they had
more , would the toll of Japanese planes have been higher? What if
they had a couple more AA guns?
What if they had a gotten a shipment of several miles of barbed wire
to put on beaches?
What if they had a few cases of anti-personnel mines?
Would a couple more aircraft helped?
Once they surrendered they did not blow up the airstrip, what if thye
had blown it, what effect would this have had?
The US tried to relieve Wake but turned back after getting a report of
two IJN carriers and 2 bb in the area. Could supplies have been
dropped via seaplane? What supplies would have been most helpful?
Why no US subs in the area?
Why did the jap commander kill the 98 POWs when he thought he was
about to be overrun in 1943, this makes no sense.
Overall, the Marines did an amazing job sinking 5 japanese ships and
killing over 900 Japanese to their toll of about 57 deaths and 157
captured.
Give them full AA and AS batteries with enough ammo. This would
include radar (least likely) as well as range and height finders which
had been left at Pearl.
Enough time to build revetments for the Wildcats, dig in the Avgas
stores, spare parts for the planes, AA, and AS guns. Enough qualified
mechanics to work on the planes. A few more Wildcats would've been
nice. Maybe a few SBDs.
The problem was, Wake wasn't defensible as long as the Japanese
wanted it. It might've held out longer, but the Japanese never made a
major effort...which they would've done if necessary because they
couldn't afford to leave Wake as a working US base.
=============================================================================
Wake was very isolated and exposed. the USN could have taken it back
anytime
but didn't see it as a threat or worth the effort.
the Japanese got no benefit from it that was worth the losses they
incurred
getting it.-
They didn't think they were going to suffer the losses. That's why
they sent the second team at first. The Japanese didn't think they
could afford to leave a US base at Wake. It was exposed, but would've
been a real thorn in their side if PBYs and B-17s were based there.
Taking Wake removed that threat and gave them a land base for recon.
[/quote]
Being extremely impressed at how much 157 Marines did to the Japanese,
let's play the game of "What tiny thing might have enabled em to do
even better although they eventually lose. So, would it have been
sights on the rest of the AA, a bit of barbed wire, a case of mines?
What little lthing, not a bunch of things might have enabled em to
sink another ship or down a few more planes, etc?
Would sights on the AA have resulted in fewer Marine plane losses in
the Japs 1st bomber attack? The Marines lost 8 out of 12 planes in
that one attack.
=====================================================================
the garrison was over 400. where did you get your figure? |
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| John... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 5:42 pm |
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Guest
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On Oct 31, 4:20 pm, Frogwatch <ohara... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote:
[quote]Lets engage in a bit of alternative history. If you could change
something small that would cause the defenders of Wake Island to hold
out for a longer time, what would it be? Let's be reasonable about
this and make it plausible.
If the defenders had any idea of the way they'd be treated after
surrender, would they have been able to hold out for a few more days?
If so, what would this have accomplished in terms of using up Japanese
resources?
I once read that they had only one good AA gun sight. if they had
more , would the toll of Japanese planes have been higher? What if
they had a couple more AA guns?
What if they had a gotten a shipment of several miles of barbed wire
to put on beaches?
What if they had a few cases of anti-personnel mines?
Would a couple more aircraft helped?
Once they surrendered they did not blow up the airstrip, what if thye
had blown it, what effect would this have had?
The US tried to relieve Wake but turned back after getting a report of
two IJN carriers and 2 bb in the area. Could supplies have been
dropped via seaplane? What supplies would have been most helpful?
Why no US subs in the area?
Why did the jap commander kill the 98 POWs when he thought he was
about to be overrun in 1943, this makes no sense.
Overall, the Marines did an amazing job sinking 5 japanese ships and
killing over 900 Japanese to their toll of about 57 deaths and 157
captured.
[/quote]
Handy Talkies or Walky Talkies probably would have cured the
communications problems. I recall that one of the islets actually
nearly wiped out the initial Japanese landing and had no idea why they
had to surrender when the word came. Off topic but I have read that
50 decent radio sets would have made all the difference in the British
defence of Crete.
John Dupre' |
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