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| tankfixer... |
 Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 6:26 pm |
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In article <9d66b7f0-f8ae-415a-88ba-d280b381c897
at (no spam) p8g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>, ohara5.0 at (no spam) mindspring.com says...
[quote]
Lets engage in a bit of alternative history. If you could change
something small that would cause the defenders of Wake Island to hold
out for a longer time, what would it be? Let's be reasonable about
this and make it plausible.
If the defenders had any idea of the way they'd be treated after
surrender, would they have been able to hold out for a few more days?
[/quote]
I'd have held an enlistment ceremony for any of the 600+ civilian
contractors that cared to enlist..
Army them with whatever extra weapons avaialble and use the balance to
help crew the 3in AA and 5in CA guns..
[quote]If so, what would this have accomplished in terms of using up Japanese
resources?
I once read that they had only one good AA gun sight. if they had
more , would the toll of Japanese planes have been higher? What if
they had a couple more AA guns?
What if they had a gotten a shipment of several miles of barbed wire
to put on beaches?
What if they had a few cases of anti-personnel mines?
Would a couple more aircraft helped?
Once they surrendered they did not blow up the airstrip, what if thye
had blown it, what effect would this have had?
[/quote]
Once surrendered they had no way to do anything.
I suspect you mean why not blow the strip before surrendering ?
It wouldn't have taken long to rebuild.
[quote]
The US tried to relieve Wake but turned back after getting a report of
two IJN carriers and 2 bb in the area. Could supplies have been
dropped via seaplane? What supplies would have been most helpful?
Why no US subs in the area?
Why did the jap commander kill the 98 POWs when he thought he was
about to be overrun in 1943, this makes no sense.
Overall, the Marines did an amazing job sinking 5 japanese ships and
killing over 900 Japanese to their toll of about 57 deaths and 157
captured.[/quote] |
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| tankfixer... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 6:27 pm |
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In article <8d90a139-53f1-45cb-9441-40367b8b94a1
at (no spam) d4g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>, jacklinthicum at (no spam) earthlink.net says...
[quote]
On Oct 31, 5:57 pm, Arved Sandstrom <dces... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
Jack Linthicum wrote:
On Oct 31, 4:20 pm, Frogwatch <ohara... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote:
Lets engage in a bit of alternative history. If you could change
something small that would cause the defenders of Wake Island to hold
out for a longer time, what would it be? Let's be reasonable about
this and make it plausible.
If the defenders had any idea of the way they'd be treated after
surrender, would they have been able to hold out for a few more days?
If so, what would this have accomplished in terms of using up Japanese
resources?
I once read that they had only one good AA gun sight. if they had
more , would the toll of Japanese planes have been higher? What if
they had a couple more AA guns?
What if they had a gotten a shipment of several miles of barbed wire
to put on beaches?
What if they had a few cases of anti-personnel mines?
Would a couple more aircraft helped?
Once they surrendered they did not blow up the airstrip, what if thye
had blown it, what effect would this have had?
The US tried to relieve Wake but turned back after getting a report of
two IJN carriers and 2 bb in the area. Could supplies have been
dropped via seaplane? What supplies would have been most helpful?
Why no US subs in the area?
Why did the jap commander kill the 98 POWs when he thought he was
about to be overrun in 1943, this makes no sense.
Overall, the Marines did an amazing job sinking 5 japanese ships and
killing over 900 Japanese to their toll of about 57 deaths and 157
captured.
There is a forum for that at soc.history.what-if
I'd venture to say that SMN is pretty appropriate for alternative
*naval* history. What Frog is doing is wargaming, and last I checked
that's part of military science.
AHS
Okay, let's start with "how long is long" when holding out longer is
the object. Do you spend the resources you would eventually use for
the Doolittle Raid on saving Wake? How do you supply them? The use of
a fairly strong task force was stopped by the possibility of major
Japanese forces in the area. Twelve days later the Japanese came back
in force on December 23. (By the way I am getting my data from the
same place Frog did, Wiki). What do you buy for those twelves days?
What would you buy if you stayed there? I read Wake as right next to
the Marshalls, Kwajaelin, etc.
[/quote]
They drove the Japanese away once and nearly did the second time if the
lack of communications between the islets hadn't broken down that the
commander thought all the others had fallen when he decided to
surrender. |
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| tankfixer... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 6:31 pm |
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In article <75f9f9d8-a037-4f69-bc54-381694dc5070
at (no spam) v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, deemsbill at (no spam) aol.com says...
[quote]
On Oct 31, 6:48 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <raymond-oh... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
deemsb... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote in message
news:104f9e6b-2fd2-4913-aa48-2348c7a80f66 at (no spam) a21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com....
On Oct 31, 4:20 pm, Frogwatch <ohara... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote:
Lets engage in a bit of alternative history. If you could change
something small that would cause the defenders of Wake Island to hold
out for a longer time, what would it be? Let's be reasonable about
this and make it plausible.
If the defenders had any idea of the way they'd be treated after
surrender, would they have been able to hold out for a few more days?
If so, what would this have accomplished in terms of using up Japanese
resources?
I once read that they had only one good AA gun sight. if they had
more , would the toll of Japanese planes have been higher? What if
they had a couple more AA guns?
What if they had a gotten a shipment of several miles of barbed wire
to put on beaches?
What if they had a few cases of anti-personnel mines?
Would a couple more aircraft helped?
Once they surrendered they did not blow up the airstrip, what if thye
had blown it, what effect would this have had?
The US tried to relieve Wake but turned back after getting a report of
two IJN carriers and 2 bb in the area. Could supplies have been
dropped via seaplane? What supplies would have been most helpful?
Why no US subs in the area?
Why did the jap commander kill the 98 POWs when he thought he was
about to be overrun in 1943, this makes no sense.
Overall, the Marines did an amazing job sinking 5 japanese ships and
killing over 900 Japanese to their toll of about 57 deaths and 157
captured.
Give them full AA and AS batteries with enough ammo. This would
include radar (least likely) as well as range and height finders which
had been left at Pearl.
Enough time to build revetments for the Wildcats, dig in the Avgas
stores, spare parts for the planes, AA, and AS guns. Enough qualified
mechanics to work on the planes. A few more Wildcats would've been
nice. Maybe a few SBDs.
The problem was, Wake wasn't defensible as long as the Japanese
wanted it. It might've held out longer, but the Japanese never made a
major effort...which they would've done if necessary because they
couldn't afford to leave Wake as a working US base.
============================================================================
Wake was very isolated and exposed. the USN could have taken it back anytime
but didn't see it as a threat or worth the effort.
the Japanese got no benefit from it that was worth the losses they incurred
getting it.-
They didn't think they were going to suffer the losses. That's why
they sent the second team at first. The Japanese didn't think they
could afford to leave a US base at Wake. It was exposed, but would've
been a real thorn in their side if PBYs and B-17s were based there.
[/quote]
I don't think you could have based a worthwhile number of B17 on Wake.
Perhaps stage a raid through Wake but even then I'm not sure it would
handle a useful number of aircraft.
But as an advance base for submarines to call in to and for PBY's to fly
out of it would have been a thorn in the IJN's side..
> Taking Wake removed that threat and gave them a land base for recon. |
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| tankfixer... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 6:31 pm |
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Guest
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In article <c53699ac-ba61-4f60-aba1-5717c0941828
at (no spam) j19g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>, dbohara at (no spam) mindspring.com says...
[quote]
On Oct 31, 7:32 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <raymond-oh... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
"Frogwatch" <dboh... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:09a4f2e1-1b69-4f84-9faf-b94b1e01a793 at (no spam) a31g2000yqn.googlegroups.com....
On Oct 31, 7:02 pm, "deemsb... at (no spam) aol.com" <deemsb... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote:
On Oct 31, 6:48 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <raymond-oh... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
deemsb... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote in message
news:104f9e6b-2fd2-4913-aa48-2348c7a80f66 at (no spam) a21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 31, 4:20 pm, Frogwatch <ohara... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote:
Lets engage in a bit of alternative history. If you could change
something small that would cause the defenders of Wake Island to hold
out for a longer time, what would it be? Let's be reasonable about
this and make it plausible.
If the defenders had any idea of the way they'd be treated after
surrender, would they have been able to hold out for a few more days?
If so, what would this have accomplished in terms of using up Japanese
resources?
I once read that they had only one good AA gun sight. if they had
more , would the toll of Japanese planes have been higher? What if
they had a couple more AA guns?
What if they had a gotten a shipment of several miles of barbed wire
to put on beaches?
What if they had a few cases of anti-personnel mines?
Would a couple more aircraft helped?
Once they surrendered they did not blow up the airstrip, what if thye
had blown it, what effect would this have had?
The US tried to relieve Wake but turned back after getting a report of
two IJN carriers and 2 bb in the area. Could supplies have been
dropped via seaplane? What supplies would have been most helpful?
Why no US subs in the area?
Why did the jap commander kill the 98 POWs when he thought he was
about to be overrun in 1943, this makes no sense.
Overall, the Marines did an amazing job sinking 5 japanese ships and
killing over 900 Japanese to their toll of about 57 deaths and 157
captured.
Give them full AA and AS batteries with enough ammo. This would
include radar (least likely) as well as range and height finders which
had been left at Pearl.
Enough time to build revetments for the Wildcats, dig in the Avgas
stores, spare parts for the planes, AA, and AS guns. Enough qualified
mechanics to work on the planes. A few more Wildcats would've been
nice. Maybe a few SBDs.
The problem was, Wake wasn't defensible as long as the Japanese
wanted it. It might've held out longer, but the Japanese never made a
major effort...which they would've done if necessary because they
couldn't afford to leave Wake as a working US base.
============================================================================
Wake was very isolated and exposed. the USN could have taken it back
anytime
but didn't see it as a threat or worth the effort.
the Japanese got no benefit from it that was worth the losses they
incurred
getting it.-
They didn't think they were going to suffer the losses. That's why
they sent the second team at first. The Japanese didn't think they
could afford to leave a US base at Wake. It was exposed, but would've
been a real thorn in their side if PBYs and B-17s were based there.
Taking Wake removed that threat and gave them a land base for recon.
Being extremely impressed at how much 157 Marines did to the Japanese,
let's play the game of "What tiny thing might have enabled em to do
even better although they eventually lose. So, would it have been
sights on the rest of the AA, a bit of barbed wire, a case of mines?
What little lthing, not a bunch of things might have enabled em to
sink another ship or down a few more planes, etc?
Would sights on the AA have resulted in fewer Marine plane losses in
the Japs 1st bomber attack? The Marines lost 8 out of 12 planes in
that one attack.
====================================================================
the garrison was over 400. where did you get your figure?
Ray: By misreading Wiki. You are correct, over 400. Still, very
impressive.
[/quote]
Along with 600+ civilian contractors working on the airstrip..
[quote]La N: OK, what if Obama had been born on Wake Island while it was
Japanese occupied?[/quote] |
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| Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 11:02 pm |
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Guest
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In article
<09a4f2e1-1b69-4f84-9faf-b94b1e01a793 at (no spam) a3
1g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
Frogwatch <dbohara at (no spam) mindspring.com>
wrote:
[quote]On Oct 31, 7:02 pm, "deemsb... at (no spam) aol.com" <deemsb... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote:
On Oct 31, 6:48 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <raymond-oh... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
deemsb... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote in message
news:104f9e6b-2fd2-4913-aa48-2348c7a80f66 at (no spam) a21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 31, 4:20 pm, Frogwatch <ohara... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote:
Lets engage in a bit of alternative history. If you could change
something small that would cause the defenders of Wake Island to hold
out for a longer time, what would it be? Let's be reasonable about
this and make it plausible.
If the defenders had any idea of the way they'd be treated after
surrender, would they have been able to hold out for a few more days?
If so, what would this have accomplished in terms of using up Japanese
resources?
I once read that they had only one good AA gun sight. if they had
more , would the toll of Japanese planes have been higher? What if
they had a couple more AA guns?
What if they had a gotten a shipment of several miles of barbed wire
to put on beaches?
What if they had a few cases of anti-personnel mines?
Would a couple more aircraft helped?
Once they surrendered they did not blow up the airstrip, what if thye
had blown it, what effect would this have had?
The US tried to relieve Wake but turned back after getting a report of
two IJN carriers and 2 bb in the area. Could supplies have been
dropped via seaplane? What supplies would have been most helpful?
Why no US subs in the area?
Why did the jap commander kill the 98 POWs when he thought he was
about to be overrun in 1943, this makes no sense.
Overall, the Marines did an amazing job sinking 5 japanese ships and
killing over 900 Japanese to their toll of about 57 deaths and 157
captured.
Give them full AA and AS batteries with enough ammo. This would
include radar (least likely) as well as range and height finders which
had been left at Pearl.
Enough time to build revetments for the Wildcats, dig in the Avgas
stores, spare parts for the planes, AA, and AS guns. Enough qualified
mechanics to work on the planes. A few more Wildcats would've been
nice. Maybe a few SBDs.
The problem was, Wake wasn't defensible as long as the Japanese
wanted it. It might've held out longer, but the Japanese never made a
major effort...which they would've done if necessary because they
couldn't afford to leave Wake as a working US base.
==========================================================================
===
Wake was very isolated and exposed. the USN could have taken it back
anytime
but didn't see it as a threat or worth the effort.
the Japanese got no benefit from it that was worth the losses they
incurred
getting it.-
They didn't think they were going to suffer the losses. That's why
they sent the second team at first. The Japanese didn't think they
could afford to leave a US base at Wake. It was exposed, but would've
been a real thorn in their side if PBYs and B-17s were based there.
Taking Wake removed that threat and gave them a land base for recon.
Being extremely impressed at how much 157 Marines did to the Japanese,
let's play the game of "What tiny thing might have enabled em to do
even better although they eventually lose. So, would it have been
sights on the rest of the AA, a bit of barbed wire, a case of mines?
What little lthing, not a bunch of things might have enabled em to
sink another ship or down a few more planes, etc?
Would sights on the AA have resulted in fewer Marine plane losses in
the Japs 1st bomber attack? The Marines lost 8 out of 12 planes in
that one attack.
[/quote]
Poison Gas
A nice minefield for the ships to hit |
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| Jack Linthicum... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 12:58 am |
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On Oct 31, 10:42 pm, John <jdupre5... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote:
[quote]On Oct 31, 4:20 pm, Frogwatch <ohara... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote:
Lets engage in a bit of alternative history. If you could change
something small that would cause the defenders of Wake Island to hold
out for a longer time, what would it be? Let's be reasonable about
this and make it plausible.
If the defenders had any idea of the way they'd be treated after
surrender, would they have been able to hold out for a few more days?
If so, what would this have accomplished in terms of using up Japanese
resources?
I once read that they had only one good AA gun sight. if they had
more , would the toll of Japanese planes have been higher? What if
they had a couple more AA guns?
What if they had a gotten a shipment of several miles of barbed wire
to put on beaches?
What if they had a few cases of anti-personnel mines?
Would a couple more aircraft helped?
Once they surrendered they did not blow up the airstrip, what if thye
had blown it, what effect would this have had?
The US tried to relieve Wake but turned back after getting a report of
two IJN carriers and 2 bb in the area. Could supplies have been
dropped via seaplane? What supplies would have been most helpful?
Why no US subs in the area?
Why did the jap commander kill the 98 POWs when he thought he was
about to be overrun in 1943, this makes no sense.
Overall, the Marines did an amazing job sinking 5 japanese ships and
killing over 900 Japanese to their toll of about 57 deaths and 157
captured.
Handy Talkies or Walky Talkies probably would have cured the
communications problems. I recall that one of the islets actually
nearly wiped out the initial Japanese landing and had no idea why they
had to surrender when the word came. Off topic but I have read that
50 decent radio sets would have made all the difference in the British
defence of Crete.
John Dupre'
[/quote]
Point out that the Chinese copied the old 1940s SCR 536 from Motorola
and produced it into the 1960s, well into the solid state era. |
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| Jeff Dougherty... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 8:41 am |
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On Oct 31, 5:40 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <raymond-oh... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
[quote]Wake could have been easily saved the respources were there. We just didn't
have the commanders with the Stomach to do it.
the best breack the U.S. got in the Pac War was that Spruance and not
Fletcher commanded the main carrier group at Midway.
Fletcher would have lost, as he always did. Even his great victory at Coral
Sea was a tactical defeat that the Japanese could have shrugged off and
contiinued on to capture Port Moresby.
where Fletcher commanded defeat followed.
[/quote]
I suggest you read Lundstrom's "The First Team" and "Black Shoe
Carrier Admiral" for a more detailed analysis of the situation at
Wake. Fletcher was right to refuel his ships before venturing within
a day's sail of Wake, because while they were 3/4 full that was
because they had made the cruise out from Pearl Harbor at just under
13 knots, the maximum speed their oiler could make. The plan called
for them to make a maximum speed sprint to and from Wake, which would
leave his task force in trouble if they ran into any serious
opposition and started with less than full tanks. The carriers
themselves would have been OK, but the destroyers and to a lesser
extent cruisers had very limited bunker capacity, and that's what
Fletcher stopped to fuel. It's easy to damn him in retrospect, but
how would we view his actions if he had rushed in and then been unable
to respond to attacks from _Hiryu_ and _Soryu_ because his escorts
could no longer steam at high speeds?
It's also worth noting that Fletcher had orders to keep his task force
(except for the ships actually reinforcing Wake) more than 700 miles
from Rongelap Island (the nearest Japanese airbase) and 200 miles from
Wake Island. (First Team, pp 40 and 41) At those distances, it's not
clear how much difference Fletcher's carrier aircraft could have made
in the fight for Wake- they would have had to launch on one-way
missions, land at Wake, and hope there was enough gas to refuel them
there before being overrun. Most likely, you only get one mission out
of them.
As for Fletcher's record elsewhere in the Pacific:
- I hate to be the one to tell you this, but Fletcher was in overall
command at Midway. Spruance commanded Task Force 16, with
_Enterprise_ and _Hornet_, while Fletcher commanded Task Force 17 with
_Yorktown_ and exercised overall command of both task forces.
Fletcher did pass command to Spruance by indicating that he would
"conform to your movements" later in the battle, but only after
_Yorktown_ was disabled and three of the four Japanese carriers had
already been taken out.
- I'd be interested to hear how the Japanese would have "shrugged off"
the defeat at Coral Sea and carried on with their invasion of Port
Moresby. _Shoho_ was sunk at that point, _Shokaku_ had large holes in
her flight deck, and _Zuikaku_ had lost most of her air group.
Granted the Americans had no carriers left either, but they also had
land-based air based in Australia and at Moresby itself. Lots of luck
forcing your way through that and carrying out a landing without any
carrier support.
- Fletcher commanded U.S. forces at the Battle of the Eastern
Solomons, which was also an American victory. Not a smashing win on
the order of Midway, but the Americans sank _Ryujo_ and shot down a
number of Japanese planes and aircrews, neither of which were
replaceable at that point in the war. They also forced the Japanese
to delay reinforcing Guadalcanal, which was the point of the whole
exercise.
- Of the four 1942 carrier battles (Coral Sea, Midway, Eastern
Solomons, and Santa Cruz), the only one the Japanese carried off a
victory at was Santa Cruz. Where the American forces were commanded
by...Halsey. Not Fletcher.
Fletcher certainly had his faults as a commander- he was probably a
bit more cautious than he should have been in some instances, and his
decision to withdraw the carriers during the initial Guadalcanal
landings was, I think, a mistake. But I get annoyed when he's tarred
with the brush of an incompetent for little reason other than the fact
that Samuel Elliot Morrison apparently didn't like him very much.
-JTD |
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| Jeff Dougherty... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 8:45 am |
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On Oct 31, 5:41 pm, "deemsb... at (no spam) aol.com" <deemsb... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote:
[quote] The problem was, Wake wasn't defensible as long as the Japanese
wanted it. It might've held out longer, but the Japanese never made a
major effort...which they would've done if necessary because they
couldn't afford to leave Wake as a working US base.
[/quote]
Agreed. I think the best you can hope for under the circumstances
would be to defeat the second Japanese invasion force, which could
maybe have been done if the Japanese force had been delayed a few days
and the reinforcement convoy had gotten through. Then, if you're
smart, you use the time you just bought to destroy the works you've
been building at Wake Island and evacuate the base there. It's simply
too exposed to be defensible unless you're going to go War Plan Orange
on the Japanese and start the whole battle fleet steaming for the
Phillippines post haste, and, uh, there were some minor technical
problems with most of the Pacific Fleet battle line at that particular
time.
-JTD |
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| Frogwatch... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 8:58 am |
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On Nov 1, 1:45 pm, Jeff Dougherty <dougherty.jeff... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]On Oct 31, 5:41 pm, "deemsb... at (no spam) aol.com" <deemsb... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote:
The problem was, Wake wasn't defensible as long as the Japanese
wanted it. It might've held out longer, but the Japanese never made a
major effort...which they would've done if necessary because they
couldn't afford to leave Wake as a working US base.
Agreed. I think the best you can hope for under the circumstances
would be to defeat the second Japanese invasion force, which could
maybe have been done if the Japanese force had been delayed a few days
and the reinforcement convoy had gotten through. Then, if you're
smart, you use the time you just bought to destroy the works you've
been building at Wake Island and evacuate the base there. It's simply
too exposed to be defensible unless you're going to go War Plan Orange
on the Japanese and start the whole battle fleet steaming for the
Phillippines post haste, and, uh, there were some minor technical
problems with most of the Pacific Fleet battle line at that particular
time.
-JTD
[/quote]
Look at a globe, Wake is a reasonable distance from Midway and a logn
way from the nearest Japanese land base.
Wake could have had supplies delivered by seaplane. Was there any
consideration of this?
Why no subs supporting Wake? It is far shorter from HI or Midway to
Wake than to Japan. A single sub could have made a mess of Japanese
plans not to mention laying mines. |
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| Jack Linthicum... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:17 am |
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| Jeff Dougherty... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:39 am |
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Guest
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On Nov 1, 1:58 pm, Frogwatch <dboh... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 1, 1:45 pm, Jeff Dougherty <dougherty.jeff... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On Oct 31, 5:41 pm, "deemsb... at (no spam) aol.com" <deemsb... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote:
The problem was, Wake wasn't defensible as long as the Japanese
wanted it. It might've held out longer, but the Japanese never made a
major effort...which they would've done if necessary because they
couldn't afford to leave Wake as a working US base.
Agreed. I think the best you can hope for under the circumstances
would be to defeat the second Japanese invasion force, which could
maybe have been done if the Japanese force had been delayed a few days
and the reinforcement convoy had gotten through. Then, if you're
smart, you use the time you just bought to destroy the works you've
been building at Wake Island and evacuate the base there. It's simply
too exposed to be defensible unless you're going to go War Plan Orange
on the Japanese and start the whole battle fleet steaming for the
Phillippines post haste, and, uh, there were some minor technical
problems with most of the Pacific Fleet battle line at that particular
time.
-JTD
Look at a globe, Wake is a reasonable distance from Midway and a logn
way from the nearest Japanese land base.
[/quote]
Did so, with the great circle mapper at http://gc.kls2.com/. The
nearest American bases were Midway and then Pearl Harbor, which by
great circle path are 1027 and 1997 nm from Wake, respectively. The
Japanese invasion forces were staging out of Kwajelein and their air
bases were at Rongelap, 634 and 486 nm respectively from Wake. The
Japanese bases were much, much closer.
[quote]Wake could have had supplies delivered by seaplane. Was there any
consideration of this?
[/quote]
Not to my knowledge, and it would have been difficult. The best the
Americans could probably bring to bear would be a PBY Catalina, which
had a range of around 2500 miles. In order to make Wake they'd have
to refuel at Midway, which before the buildup to the battle in late
May 1942 didn't have much in the way of facilities. You'd have to
either send a seaplane tender to Midway or use some planes to carry
gas to Midway, which is then used to fuel other planes to make the run
to Wake. Historically, Fletcher's forces included the seaplane tender
_Tangier_ which left Pearl on 15 December and reached an area about
equidistant from Wake as Midway was on the 19th. By the morning of
the 21st, the Japanese carriers had arrived at Wake, which would have
shut down any PBY airlift. So, probably not going to work.
[quote]Why no subs supporting Wake? It is far shorter from HI or Midway to
Wake than to Japan. A single sub could have made a mess of Japanese
plans not to mention laying mines.
[/quote]
According to Blair's _Silent Victory_ pg. 85, the quickest any
submarine from Pearl put out to sea was _Gudgeon_, on December 11th.
Submarine doctrine at the time was to remain submerged during the
daylight and run on the surface at night, so even assuming a sub ran
at maximum speed she would not have been able to make it before the
reinforcement convoy did. Kimmel, who was still CINCPAC at that
point, ordered the first group of boats to the Marshall Islands
because he was worried that the Japanese would stage another task
force through there to hit Pearl Harbor again. Not realistic in
hindsight, but at that time nobody really knew what the Japanese had
or what they were planning.
U.S. sub doctrine also did not include minelaying at that point,
except for one specialized boat, _Argonaut_.
-JTD |
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| Jeff Dougherty... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:41 am |
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Guest
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On Nov 1, 2:17 pm, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi... at (no spam) earthlink.net> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 1, 1:41 pm, Jeff Dougherty <dougherty.jeff... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
also useful to read the relevant chapter in War Plan Orange
pp287ff
War Plan Orange: The U.S. Strategy to Defeat Japan, 1897-1945
By Edward S. Miller
http://books.google.com/books?id=uZ0Bw4c8vKwC&pg=PA224&lpg=PA224&dq=w...
The split was between luring a Japanese task force into battle by
looking to supply Wake or abandoning the place entirely after
destroying the equipment and building.
[/quote]
Mm, thanks. _WPO_ is one of those books I keep meaning to read and
haven't gotten around to yet. I know the broad outlines of Orange,
but I haven't read that study.
I would have gone with Option 2, especially with most of the PacFleet
on the bottom of Pearl Harbor.
-JTD |
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| Jack Linthicum... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:54 am |
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Guest
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On Nov 1, 2:41 pm, Jeff Dougherty <dougherty.jeff... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 1, 2:17 pm, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi... at (no spam) earthlink.net> wrote:
On Nov 1, 1:41 pm, Jeff Dougherty <dougherty.jeff... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
also useful to read the relevant chapter in War Plan Orange
pp287ff
War Plan Orange: The U.S. Strategy to Defeat Japan, 1897-1945
By Edward S. Miller
http://books.google.com/books?id=uZ0Bw4c8vKwC&pg=PA224&lpg=PA224&dq=w...
The split was between luring a Japanese task force into battle by
looking to supply Wake or abandoning the place entirely after
destroying the equipment and building.
Mm, thanks. _WPO_ is one of those books I keep meaning to read and
haven't gotten around to yet. I know the broad outlines of Orange,
but I haven't read that study.
I would have gone with Option 2, especially with most of the PacFleet
on the bottom of Pearl Harbor.
-JTD
[/quote]
It's in the Internet, that url will give you page 288 chapter 25 about
Wake. The problem was CNO got the idea Frog has and had to be talked
out of it by the Japanese.
I always like to think of the irony of Plan Orange planning for that
great battle in the mid-Pacific and forced to change their plans with
the BBs underwater or damaged. |
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| Jack Linthicum... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 11:05 am |
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On Nov 1, 3:47 pm, "Keith Willshaw"
<ke... at (no spam) nospam.kwillshaw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
[quote]"Frogwatch" <dboh... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:b0681ce2-44cf-481c-b8fc-3cac2d8bbc9b at (no spam) s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 1, 1:45 pm, Jeff Dougherty <dougherty.jeff... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On Oct 31, 5:41 pm, "deemsb... at (no spam) aol.com" <deemsb... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote:
Look at a globe, Wake is a reasonable distance from Midway and a logn
way from the nearest Japanese land base.
Wake could have had supplies delivered by seaplane. Was there any
consideration of this?
No for the simple reason that the idea is nuts. Given the quantity of
supplies a realistic garrison would require air supply with the
flying boats available would be completely impractical. Wake is
over 1000 miles fromMidway. The only aircraft available with
adequate range were the PBY's. Each could carry around 4000 lb
of supplies.
How many do you think you'dneed to supply 600 men with food
fuel and ammunition ?
Why no subs supporting Wake?
The USN was stretched all across the Pacific from the approaches
to Australia to Hawaii. The submarines were better used killing
Japanese ships.
.
Keith
[/quote]
Also, no place to land cargo from a sub. Even today it would have to
be lightered in.
War Plan Orange: The U.S. Strategy to Defeat Japan, 1897-1945
By Edward S. Miller
http://books.google.com/books?id=uZ0Bw4c8vKwC&pg=PA224&lpg=PA224&dq=w...
and
Transportation Wake Island
Ports and harbors:
none; two offshore anchorages for large ships
http://geography.about.com/library/cia/blcwake.htm |
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| Jack Linthicum... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 11:06 am |
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Guest
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On Nov 1, 3:47 pm, "Keith Willshaw"
<ke... at (no spam) nospam.kwillshaw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
[quote]"Frogwatch" <dboh... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:b0681ce2-44cf-481c-b8fc-3cac2d8bbc9b at (no spam) s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 1, 1:45 pm, Jeff Dougherty <dougherty.jeff... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On Oct 31, 5:41 pm, "deemsb... at (no spam) aol.com" <deemsb... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote:
Look at a globe, Wake is a reasonable distance from Midway and a logn
way from the nearest Japanese land base.
Wake could have had supplies delivered by seaplane. Was there any
consideration of this?
No for the simple reason that the idea is nuts. Given the quantity of
supplies a realistic garrison would require air supply with the
flying boats available would be completely impractical. Wake is
over 1000 miles fromMidway. The only aircraft available with
adequate range were the PBY's. Each could carry around 4000 lb
of supplies.
How many do you think you'dneed to supply 600 men with food
fuel and ammunition ?
Why no subs supporting Wake?
The USN was stretched all across the Pacific from the approaches
to Australia to Hawaii. The submarines were better used killing
Japanese ships.
.
Keith
[/quote]
Also they could look but not land anywhere. Check out Map 25.1 |
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