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| Archimedes Plutonium... |
 Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:12 pm |
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Guest
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I was wanting to know why rechargeable batteries have
a finite maximum rechargeability? I think it was in
High School chemistry or physics class that the answer went something
like this:
Either the anode or cathode starts to buildup a chemical pollution
layer that eventually so hinders
the flow of the electrochemical reaction.
Is there some sort of term or terminology associated with this
phenomenon? I am looking for details as
to the maximum number of recharges a typical battery
can endure.
I was watching a TV program tonight about how Copenhagen Denmark was
ambitiously going to
have all electric cars using windmill generation.
Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies |
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| zzbunker at (no spam) netscape.net... |
| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:57 pm |
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Guest
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On Oct 31, 3:12 am, Archimedes Plutonium
<plutonium.archime... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]I was wanting to know why rechargeable batteries have
a finite maximum rechargeability? I think it was in
High School chemistry or physics class that the answer went something
like this:
Either the anode or cathode starts to buildup a chemical pollution
layer that eventually so hinders
the flow of the electrochemical reaction.
Is there some sort of term or terminology associated with this
phenomenon? I am looking for details as
to the maximum number of recharges a typical battery
can endure.
[/quote]
Chemists have come up so much idiot terminology about anodes and
cathodes,
battery cycles, battery sizes, buisness cycles, corrosive
compensation, and crank theoretical physics
limitations of batteries, that's why the non-idiot Engineering
People invented
Digital Books, Atomic Clock Wristwatches, Light Sticks, Flash
Memory, Post Acme Screwthreads,
Multuplexed Fiber Optics, USB, non Rotating Computer Harddisks,
The 21st Century, All-In-One Printers, Post Turn-Key Operation,
Desktop Publishing, 4D Holographics,
On-Line Publishing, Pv Cell Energy, Cyber Batteries, Home
Broadband,
non Vacuum-Tube Microcomputers, thermal-injected microwave
cooling,
mp3, mpeg, HDTV, Blue Ray. Thermo-Electric Cooling, Reverse
Compilers,
Flat Scrreen Software Debuggers, Bi-Optical Computers, Data Fusion,
Digital-Terrain Mapping,
Post Maxwllian Poetics, PGP++, CD+rw, DVD-rom, Laser-Guided
Phasors,
GPS-On-Line, UAVs, Drones, Post Optimal Hermitian Intergration and
Self-Assembling Robots.
[quote]
I was watching a TV program tonight about how Copenhagen Denmark was
ambitiously going to
have all electric cars using windmill generation.
Archimedes Plutoniumwww.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies[/quote] |
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| Archimedes Plutonium... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:36 am |
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Guest
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Archimedes Plutonium wrote:
[quote]I was wanting to know why rechargeable batteries have
a finite maximum rechargeability? I think it was in
High School chemistry or physics class that the answer went something
like this:
Either the anode or cathode starts to buildup a chemical pollution
layer that eventually so hinders
the flow of the electrochemical reaction.
Is there some sort of term or terminology associated with this
phenomenon? I am looking for details as
to the maximum number of recharges a typical battery
can endure.
I was watching a TV program tonight about how Copenhagen Denmark was
ambitiously going to
have all electric cars using windmill generation.
[/quote]
I should include chemistry into the discussion since batteries fill
both
chemistry and physics texts.
It is nice to see a entire country of Denmark and even Hawaii
converting
to an all electric car society where they harness wind power and to
store
that electricity into batteries as the PBS tv show displayed
yesterday.
So my question that the show aroused was whether anyone was working
on improving the rechargeableness of batteries and what makes
recharging
of batteries a less perfect battery than a brand new battery? If my
memory
is correct there is some sort of pollution or corrosion on the anode
or cathode
with builds up until it blocks the reversible procedure.
I was looking to see if Wikipedia had any information on this but they
have zip.
And no luck with any general google search has zip on this specific. I
am
guessing it has a special name for this pollution that limits a
battery life.
But there should be a decent amount of research into this pollution
since our
world is moving ever closer to renewable and all electric transport.
Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies |
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| Yevgen Barsukov... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 8:06 am |
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Guest
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The general answer is similar to the question "why any machine is
going to break".
It is "spontaneous entropy increase".
But particular answer is specific to each battery chemistry. If you go
to wiki-page
for each type of battery, for example "Li-ion", you will find a
section on degradation.
Since this is the hottest chemistry, lets focus on it for a moment,
specially as
its degradation mechanism is different from other common batteries
because
it is intercalation based.
Mechanism of charge-discharge of this battery does not involve
dissolving / depositing
any metals as it is in Lead-acid or NiCd batteries. Instead, Li-ions
get forced into crystalline
structure during charge (like straining a string), and spontaneously
come out of it during discharge,
releasing stored energy.
Looking at this mechanism, it is not obvious why it should degradation
since morphiology and
shape of the particles remains constant.
There is however a catch. To store a lot of energy, you need to make
chemical reaction highly
energetic. To do that, you need to have highly aggressive chemical
compounds in the system.
Once you do that, you have to live with the fact that they will react
not only with the desired
partner, but also with all other components of the system (e.g. side
reactions).
That is what happens in Li-ion battery.
Specially Li-intercalated graphite is unstable in any organic
electrolyte. The only
reasons batteries even work is a passivating layer (similar to
aluminium) that builds on graphite interface and allows Li to pass but
not electrolyte. But no layer is perfectly protective
and even Al is gradually corroding.
This corrosion and accumulating of its byproducts (insolble Li-salts)
is what degrares
Li-ion battery. Unfortunately this process has nothing to do with
cycling as such,
so as long as battery is charged it will degrade by just sitting
there. Keeping it
at low voltage (less agressive components) and low temperature helps
to slow down this process, like any other reaction.
Hope for solving the problem is
1) use less energetic materials (Lithium tithanate anodes or LiFePO4
cathodes)
2) develop more stable electrolytes such as liquid salts
both unfortunately means sacrificing energy density.
Regards,
Yevgen
On Oct 31, 2:36 pm, Archimedes Plutonium
<plutonium.archime... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]Archimedes Plutonium wrote:
I was wanting to know why rechargeable batteries have
a finite maximum rechargeability? I think it was in
High School chemistry or physics class that the answer went something
like this:
Either the anode or cathode starts to buildup a chemical pollution
layer that eventually so hinders
the flow of the electrochemical reaction.
Is there some sort of term or terminology associated with this
phenomenon? I am looking for details as
to the maximum number of recharges a typical battery
can endure.
I was watching a TV program tonight about how Copenhagen Denmark was
ambitiously going to
have all electric cars using windmill generation.
I should include chemistry into the discussion since batteries fill
both
chemistry and physics texts.
It is nice to see a entire country of Denmark and even Hawaii
converting
to an all electric car society where they harness wind power and to
store
that electricity into batteries as the PBS tv show displayed
yesterday.
So my question that the show aroused was whether anyone was working
on improving the rechargeableness of batteries and what makes
recharging
of batteries a less perfect battery than a brand new battery? If my
memory
is correct there is some sort of pollution or corrosion on the anode
or cathode
with builds up until it blocks the reversible procedure.
I was looking to see if Wikipedia had any information on this but they
have zip.
And no luck with any general google search has zip on this specific. I
am
guessing it has a special name for this pollution that limits a
battery life.
But there should be a decent amount of research into this pollution
since our
world is moving ever closer to renewable and all electric transport.
Archimedes Plutoniumwww.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies[/quote] |
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| Bill Penrose... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:40 am |
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Guest
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On Oct 31, 1:36 pm, Archimedes Plutonium
<plutonium.archime... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]So my question that the show aroused was whether anyone was working
on improving the rechargeableness of batteries and what makes
recharging
of batteries a less perfect battery than a brand new battery?
[/quote]
Love that word, 'rechargeableness'.
Most chemical reactions involve side reactions. Producing electricity
electrochemically is a reaction. Making that reaction go in reverse
often includes side reactions that result in products that no longer
contribute to the batteriness. Attempts to recharge alkaline
batteries, frex, causes oxygen production and/or resistive heating of
the electrolyte and causes the battery to burst, or unbattery itself,
as they say. Lead-acid batteries accumulating sulfates on their plates
is an example.
Or an electrode with high surface area may reform the electrode to one
with lower surface area.
The few side reactions, the closer you get to a battery with true
rechargeableness. Lithium-ion batteries come close to this and have
cycle counts as high as 1000.
Dangerous Bill |
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| Archimedes Plutonium... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:49 am |
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Guest
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Yevgen Barsukov wrote:
[quote]The general answer is similar to the question "why any machine is
going to break".
It is "spontaneous entropy increase".
But particular answer is specific to each battery chemistry. If you go
to wiki-page
for each type of battery, for example "Li-ion", you will find a
section on degradation.
Since this is the hottest chemistry, lets focus on it for a moment,
specially as
its degradation mechanism is different from other common batteries
because
it is intercalation based.
Mechanism of charge-discharge of this battery does not involve
dissolving / depositing
any metals as it is in Lead-acid or NiCd batteries. Instead, Li-ions
get forced into crystalline
structure during charge (like straining a string), and spontaneously
come out of it during discharge,
releasing stored energy.
Looking at this mechanism, it is not obvious why it should degradation
since morphiology and
shape of the particles remains constant.
There is however a catch. To store a lot of energy, you need to make
chemical reaction highly
energetic. To do that, you need to have highly aggressive chemical
compounds in the system.
Once you do that, you have to live with the fact that they will react
not only with the desired
partner, but also with all other components of the system (e.g. side
reactions).
That is what happens in Li-ion battery.
Specially Li-intercalated graphite is unstable in any organic
electrolyte. The only
reasons batteries even work is a passivating layer (similar to
aluminium) that builds on graphite interface and allows Li to pass but
not electrolyte. But no layer is perfectly protective
and even Al is gradually corroding.
This corrosion and accumulating of its byproducts (insolble Li-salts)
is what degrares
Li-ion battery. Unfortunately this process has nothing to do with
cycling as such,
so as long as battery is charged it will degrade by just sitting
there. Keeping it
at low voltage (less agressive components) and low temperature helps
to slow down this process, like any other reaction.
Hope for solving the problem is
1) use less energetic materials (Lithium tithanate anodes or LiFePO4
cathodes)
2) develop more stable electrolytes such as liquid salts
both unfortunately means sacrificing energy density.
Regards,
Yevgen
On Oct 31, 2:36 pm, Archimedes Plutonium
plutonium.archime... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
Archimedes Plutonium wrote:
I was wanting to know why rechargeable batteries have
a finite maximum rechargeability? I think it was in
High School chemistry or physics class that the answer went something
like this:
Either the anode or cathode starts to buildup a chemical pollution
layer that eventually so hinders
the flow of the electrochemical reaction.
Is there some sort of term or terminology associated with this
phenomenon? I am looking for details as
to the maximum number of recharges a typical battery
can endure.
I was watching a TV program tonight about how Copenhagen Denmark was
ambitiously going to
have all electric cars using windmill generation.
I should include chemistry into the discussion since batteries fill
both
chemistry and physics texts.
It is nice to see a entire country of Denmark and even Hawaii
converting
to an all electric car society where they harness wind power and to
store
that electricity into batteries as the PBS tv show displayed
yesterday.
So my question that the show aroused was whether anyone was working
on improving the rechargeableness of batteries and what makes
recharging
of batteries a less perfect battery than a brand new battery? If my
memory
is correct there is some sort of pollution or corrosion on the anode
or cathode
with builds up until it blocks the reversible procedure.
I was looking to see if Wikipedia had any information on this but they
have zip.
And no luck with any general google search has zip on this specific. I
am
guessing it has a special name for this pollution that limits a
battery life.
But there should be a decent amount of research into this pollution
since our
world is moving ever closer to renewable and all electric transport.
[/quote]
Thank you very much for your post Mr. Yevgen, for perhaps the word I
should
have used in the Google search was "degradation" and will try that
tonight.
But much of your post is new to me and will have to digest your
valuable information.
I redirected this post so as to include it in my internet-book:
Newsgroups: sci.physics, sci.environment, sci.chem
From: plutonium.archime... at (no spam) gmail.com
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 00:36:34 -0800 (PST)
Local: Tues, Feb 3 2009 2:36 am
Subject: #17 no more cod sandwiches for me; New book: Our Energy
Future and Maximum Energy Strategies
Mr. Yevgen:
I was asking the original question after watching a PBS on Denmark
switching over
to all electric car society supplied by wind energy and the storage of
electricity
in batteries especially on non-windy days.
And so the thought occurred to me of something I learned in High
School that the
recharging of batteries has a finite lifetime and what is that
degradation? And you
referred to "deposits" on certain chemicals but also on something
different for the
lithium ion batteries recharging.
I was wanting to know where the Physics of entropy and of conservation
of energy
in that recharging cannot be a perpetual motion machine of everlasting
ability to
recharge a battery. So I wanted to have some details of why no battery
can forever
be recharged.
But also, now, an interesting engineering question comes to me. I love
the fresh new
lithium batteries that are one time use since they are more powerful
than any rechargeable battery.
So I wonder if anyone has done a Full Detailed Research Report
Analysis. Which is better?
To manufacture rechargeable batteries that recharge or to manufacture
those super strong
one time use batteries and then to recycle the guts of that one time
use battery into
building another super strong battery? Correct me if I am wrong, but I
think that if we
were to take a spent Lithium battery and take the lithium out of it
and reconstituted that
lithium in a manufacturing process that goes to building another one
time use lithium
battery that we would be far ahead of recharging old weak multi-
chargeable batteries.
Maybe I am wrong with a wrong assumption that the lithium of a spent
one time use
battery is no longer useable to make a new lithium super strong one
time use battery?
Maybe I am wrong on that assumption.
But if I am correct, I am thinking that it would be far battery to set
up our future
engineering of electric cars and batteries to where we have no
rechargeable batteries
wasting alot of electricity in recharging but rather have recycle bins
where you deposit
that one-time-use battery to where a manufacturing plant removes the
lithium content
and remanufactures it into a new one-time use battery.
So I wonder if anyone in Battery Research has those answers? If my
assumption is
correct, then I would guess that we would be far ahead in energy
consumption and
savings if we had electric cars where the battery is not recharged so
much at home
but is furnished with two lithium batteries and when one is used up,
insert the other
and drop off the used one at a manufacturing site.
Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies |
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| Archimedes Plutonium... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:11 pm |
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Bill Penrose wrote:
[quote]On Oct 31, 1:36 pm, Archimedes Plutonium
plutonium.archime... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
So my question that the show aroused was whether anyone was working
on improving the rechargeableness of batteries and what makes
recharging
of batteries a less perfect battery than a brand new battery?
Love that word, 'rechargeableness'.
Most chemical reactions involve side reactions. Producing electricity
electrochemically is a reaction. Making that reaction go in reverse
often includes side reactions that result in products that no longer
contribute to the batteriness. Attempts to recharge alkaline
[/quote]
List the side reactions in lithium batteries that decrease their
rechargeableness.
Has anyone formulated a equation of the decrease in recharging?
[quote]batteries, frex, causes oxygen production and/or resistive heating of
the electrolyte and causes the battery to burst, or unbattery itself,
as they say. Lead-acid batteries accumulating sulfates on their plates
is an example.
Or an electrode with high surface area may reform the electrode to one
with lower surface area.
The few side reactions, the closer you get to a battery with true
rechargeableness. Lithium-ion batteries come close to this and have
cycle counts as high as 1000.
Dangerous Bill
[/quote]
My experience with rechargeable batteries for flashlights is that they
are
miserable in my opinion. About the only place were I am satisfied with
rechargeables is a hand drill for light jobs.
So I wonder if anyone has done the math and research into a future
electric car society and the question on my mind is whether it is best
to hook up those Denmark windmills to the electric grid with Danes
plugging into the grid overnight to recharge their batteries. Or
better
if the Danes connected the windmills to a factory that manufactures
recycled batteries into a new battery?
So which is the more prudent course of action? To keep recharging
batteries, or to use them one-time and deposit them into a box where
they are sent to the factory to remanufacture into a new one time
use battery?
In the documentary on Denmark aspiration to become all electric car
society shows them replacing an entire battery pack at a factory
in 4 minutes of time (if memory serves me). Or less than the time
it takes to fill up on gasoline.
So I picture this future electric car society, not with people
plugging
into electric outlets at home or work, but rather where we have
electric
stations where you run your vehicle into the lift which pulls out your
old battery, inserts a new one and has the manufacturing plant make
a new battery.
Thus those batteries would be peak batteries and would be better on
the environment also since the internal chemicals of the battery are
recycled.
Now it maybe the case that lithium is not the best battery chemical
but that one of the older ingredients of lead acid or the nickel
cadmium
or some other chemicals are better.
I doubt anyone is really researching this prospect or this question
seriously.
And it maybe the case that we fumble around for decades with not the
best
arrangement and only after we fumble and blunder that we do the
research
to find what is the optimum electric car society where we use the
least
energy and protect the environment.
My hunch is that, from experience of rechargeable batteries that
infuriate me
as the light dims soon after I turn on the flashlight, that the best
way to
go on this for Denmark is to set up remanufacturing plants where the
windmills are located and to have electric battery stations that you
drive
in and replace the entire battery rather than recharge it.
In the show it showed a Tesla car in Denmark that reaches fast speeds.
So the Tesla has available data as to its battery type and how long to
recharge and how much energy used and when to replace the entire
battery.
So we have some research we can immediately do.
I hope it is lithium that is going to be the chemical of choice since
it is far
less damaging to the environment if it were lead batteries.
Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies |
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| Ernie... |
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:14 pm |
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WHY LITHIUM, WHY NOT SODIUM?
Wikipedia gives the following half-reaction at the Lithium anode; see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery
xLi+ + xe- + 6C -><- LixC6
If x in the above half reaction is 3 or less [3 Li for 6 carbons] then the
effective equivalent weight of the Li anode is at least 31 (2*12[for 2
carbons] + 7 [for Li]). The molecular weight of sodium (Na) is 23.
While I do not have oxidation-reduction potentials for Li and Na in
non-aqueous media, in acidic solutions Li is estimated at 3.1 volts and Na
at 2.7 volts. Thus, a Li/carbon anode should provide 3.1 e-volts/31 eq.
weight, (0.1 e-v per eq. wt) while a Na anode should provide 2.7 e-v/23 eq.
weight (0.117 e-v per eq. weight). Note that the first ionization potential
of Li is 5.39 e-v, and that of Na is 5.15 e-v, suggesting that Na should
provide almost as much electromotive force as Li. On weight basis, the Na
anode should be at least equivalent to Li/graphite.
Na is easier to handle than Li; Na does not react with nitrogen (Li does!);
there is an unlimited supply of Na, there is a very long history of
commercial production and large scale shipments of Na. Why would anyone
look for trouble and use Li in a battery?
But, I never heard of a Na Battery employing a chemistry similar to Li ion
batteries! Why?
(Sodium/sulfur battery operates at 300 - 350 deg. C; see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium-sulfur_battery)
Ernie
"Yevgen Barsukov" <evgenijb at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:bb1a295c-1802-4340-896b-8a24965df3d0 at (no spam) 37g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
The general answer is similar to the question "why any machine is
going to break".
It is "spontaneous entropy increase".
But particular answer is specific to each battery chemistry. If you go
to wiki-page
for each type of battery, for example "Li-ion", you will find a
section on degradation.
Since this is the hottest chemistry, lets focus on it for a moment,
specially as
its degradation mechanism is different from other common batteries
because
it is intercalation based.
Mechanism of charge-discharge of this battery does not involve
dissolving / depositing
any metals as it is in Lead-acid or NiCd batteries. Instead, Li-ions
get forced into crystalline
structure during charge (like straining a string), and spontaneously
come out of it during discharge,
releasing stored energy.
Looking at this mechanism, it is not obvious why it should degradation
since morphiology and
shape of the particles remains constant.
There is however a catch. To store a lot of energy, you need to make
chemical reaction highly
energetic. To do that, you need to have highly aggressive chemical
compounds in the system.
Once you do that, you have to live with the fact that they will react
not only with the desired
partner, but also with all other components of the system (e.g. side
reactions).
That is what happens in Li-ion battery.
Specially Li-intercalated graphite is unstable in any organic
electrolyte. The only
reasons batteries even work is a passivating layer (similar to
aluminium) that builds on graphite interface and allows Li to pass but
not electrolyte. But no layer is perfectly protective
and even Al is gradually corroding.
This corrosion and accumulating of its byproducts (insolble Li-salts)
is what degrares
Li-ion battery. Unfortunately this process has nothing to do with
cycling as such,
so as long as battery is charged it will degrade by just sitting
there. Keeping it
at low voltage (less agressive components) and low temperature helps
to slow down this process, like any other reaction.
Hope for solving the problem is
1) use less energetic materials (Lithium tithanate anodes or LiFePO4
cathodes)
2) develop more stable electrolytes such as liquid salts
both unfortunately means sacrificing energy density.
Regards,
Yevgen
On Oct 31, 2:36 pm, Archimedes Plutonium
<plutonium.archime... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]Archimedes Plutonium wrote:
I was wanting to know why rechargeable batteries have
a finite maximum rechargeability? I think it was in
High School chemistry or physics class that the answer went something
like this:
Either the anode or cathode starts to buildup a chemical pollution
layer that eventually so hinders
the flow of the electrochemical reaction.
Is there some sort of term or terminology associated with this
phenomenon? I am looking for details as
to the maximum number of recharges a typical battery
can endure.
I was watching a TV program tonight about how Copenhagen Denmark was
ambitiously going to
have all electric cars using windmill generation.
I should include chemistry into the discussion since batteries fill
both
chemistry and physics texts.
It is nice to see a entire country of Denmark and even Hawaii
converting
to an all electric car society where they harness wind power and to
store
that electricity into batteries as the PBS tv show displayed
yesterday.
So my question that the show aroused was whether anyone was working
on improving the rechargeableness of batteries and what makes
recharging
of batteries a less perfect battery than a brand new battery? If my
memory
is correct there is some sort of pollution or corrosion on the anode
or cathode
with builds up until it blocks the reversible procedure.
I was looking to see if Wikipedia had any information on this but they
have zip.
And no luck with any general google search has zip on this specific. I
am
guessing it has a special name for this pollution that limits a
battery life.
But there should be a decent amount of research into this pollution
since our
world is moving ever closer to renewable and all electric transport.
Archimedes Plutoniumwww.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies[/quote] |
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| Bill Penrose... |
| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:02 am |
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Guest
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On Nov 4, 12:39 am, "Androcles" <Headmas... at (no spam) Hogwarts.physics_p> wrote:
[quote]...Just had to put a new Li-Ion battery in my
laptop ($100) verifying the data. See the problem?
[/quote]
(Psst. $150 from Toshiba, $35 new from a supplier on Ebay.)
DB |
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| Benj... |
| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:36 am |
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On Nov 4, 2:39 am, "Androcles" <Headmas... at (no spam) Hogwarts.physics_p> wrote:
[quote]============================================> If you have Google Earth you can active "Weather" and see for
yourself, using the changing cloud patterns, just how much wind
is blowing across the North Sea for England, Scotland, Wales,
the Netherlands and Denmark. There is even an animation feature,
although you need to be patient with it.
http://tinyurl.com/ylew394
Contrary to popular belief among Yanks, the USA is not the centre
of the world. So yeah, wind and wave power is the answer, but not
for energy hungry American land-lubbers.
Gawd I love it when I disagree with Jocaby!
[/quote]
A lot of wind may blow across the North Sea but you need to compare
that to the amount of energy that flows out of an oil pipeline. And
look at how thin the blades are on "modern" bird-killing "turbines"!
Crap, most of the wind is going right through doing nothing! Compare
to ancient Dutch jobbies!
And actually the USA IS the center (note correct spelling) of the
world... at least until China takes the title... |
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| Benj... |
| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:37 am |
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Guest
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On Nov 4, 12:02 pm, Bill Penrose <dangerousb... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 4, 12:39 am, "Androcles" <Headmas... at (no spam) Hogwarts.physics_p> wrote:
...Just had to put a new Li-Ion battery in my
laptop ($100) verifying the data. See the problem?
(Psst. $150 from Toshiba, $35 new from a supplier on Ebay.)
DB
[/quote]
Well that news just made my day. But it's OK since I hate PayPal. |
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| Androcles... |
| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:10 pm |
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"Bill Penrose" <dangerousbill at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d24621c6-6fc8-45ba-bf69-9888d1b37b0d at (no spam) h14g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
....Just had to put a new Li-Ion battery in my
[quote]laptop ($100) verifying the data.
===========================================[/quote]
Psst... You should get your laptop's snipping tool from Toshiba, it
might work better than those cheap Ebay models that generate wrong
attributions. |
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| Yevgen Barsukov... |
| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:36 pm |
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On Nov 3, 8:14 pm, "Ernie" <Ernieman7NOS... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
[quote]WHY LITHIUM, WHY NOT SODIUM?
Wikipedia gives the following half-reaction at the Lithium anode; seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery
xLi+ + xe- + 6C -><- LixC6
If x in the above half reaction is 3 or less [3 Li for 6 carbons] then the
effective equivalent weight of the Li anode is at least 31 (2*12[for 2
carbons] + 7 [for Li]). The molecular weight of sodium (Na) is 23.
While I do not have oxidation-reduction potentials for Li and Na in
non-aqueous media, in acidic solutions Li is estimated at 3.1 volts and Na
at 2.7 volts. Thus, a Li/carbon anode should provide 3.1 e-volts/31 eq.
weight, (0.1 e-v per eq. wt) while a Na anode should provide 2.7 e-v/23 eq.
weight (0.117 e-v per eq. weight). Note that the first ionization potential
of Li is 5.39 e-v, and that of Na is 5.15 e-v, suggesting that Na should
provide almost as much electromotive force as Li. On weight basis, the Na
anode should be at least equivalent to Li/graphite.
Na is easier to handle than Li; Na does not react with nitrogen (Li does!);
there is an unlimited supply of Na, there is a very long history of
commercial production and large scale shipments of Na. Why would anyone
look for trouble and use Li in a battery?
But, I never heard of a Na Battery employing a chemistry similar to Li ion
batteries! Why?
[/quote]
1) Sodium has much worse diffusion coefficient than Li in solids.
That is what makes Na intercalation materials to have many
orders of magnitude worse kinetics (think higher resistance for
battery) compared to Li.
Simply speaking, you could make a battery with huge energy
but tiny power capability.
2) For similar reason, a way to prepare Na-conductive passivating
layers with decent conductivity has not been yet discovered, while Li
builds spontaneously a well Li-conductive passivating layer in many
traditional organic electrolytes.
So we are stack with either Na continuously reacting with electrolyte
(very short life of battery), or Na passivated with completely
resistive film.
Solution for the problem might be to find electrolyte/salt
composition that would produce something like NASICON layer on the
surface, which would have good Na-conductivity.
Presently such layers have been produced only using vacuum
deposition or ceramic processes, but not a liquid process.
This is not a problem for high temperature molten Na batteries, that
is why they do exist.
Regards,
Yevgen |
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| Androcles... |
| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:33 pm |
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"Benj" <bjacoby at (no spam) iwaynet.net> wrote in message
news:ceb37600-51fc-4d55-9822-c892f788cfed at (no spam) u8g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 4, 2:39 am, "Androcles" <Headmas... at (no spam) Hogwarts.physics_p> wrote:
[quote]=============================================
If you have Google Earth you can active "Weather" and see for
yourself, using the changing cloud patterns, just how much wind
is blowing across the North Sea for England, Scotland, Wales,
the Netherlands and Denmark. There is even an animation feature,
although you need to be patient with it.
http://tinyurl.com/ylew394
Contrary to popular belief among Yanks, the USA is not the centre
of the world. So yeah, wind and wave power is the answer, but not
for energy hungry American land-lubbers.
Gawd I love it when I disagree with Jocaby!
[/quote]
A lot of wind may blow across the North Sea but you need to compare
that to the amount of energy that flows out of an oil pipeline. And
look at how thin the blades are on "modern" bird-killing "turbines"!
Crap, most of the wind is going right through doing nothing! Compare
to ancient Dutch jobbies!
And actually the USA IS the center (note correct spelling) of the
world... at least until China takes the title...
===========================================
Those skinny parrot-bashing blades are churning out 1.3 Megawatts.
But the real problem isn't how to get energy at all, it's how to store
it for when you want to use it. Solar power isn't much use at night,
so you need to charge batteries, electrolyze water into hydrogen
and oxygen, store heat underground all summer and release it
come winter, make oil from algae -- however you do it, storage is
the problem. One variation on the windmill idea is to fly an
enormous kite into the jet stream, turning a generator as is climbs.
Then you tilt it so that it spills air and comes down again, as a
second kite climbs. Tidal energy is also reliable and Britain (centre
of the world) is well placed to harness it. |
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| Archimedes Plutonium... |
| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:45 pm |
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Guest
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Yevgen Barsukov wrote:
[quote]On Nov 3, 8:14 pm, "Ernie" <Ernieman7NOS... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
[/quote]
(snipped)
[quote]But, I never heard of a Na Battery employing a chemistry similar to Li ion
batteries! Why?
1) Sodium has much worse diffusion coefficient than Li in solids.
That is what makes Na intercalation materials to have many
orders of magnitude worse kinetics (think higher resistance for
battery) compared to Li.
Simply speaking, you could make a battery with huge energy
but tiny power capability.
2) For similar reason, a way to prepare Na-conductive passivating
layers with decent conductivity has not been yet discovered, while Li
builds spontaneously a well Li-conductive passivating layer in many
traditional organic electrolytes.
So we are stack with either Na continuously reacting with electrolyte
(very short life of battery), or Na passivated with completely
resistive film.
Solution for the problem might be to find electrolyte/salt
composition that would produce something like NASICON layer on the
surface, which would have good Na-conductivity.
Presently such layers have been produced only using vacuum
deposition or ceramic processes, but not a liquid process.
This is not a problem for high temperature molten Na batteries, that
is why they do exist.
Regards,
Yevgen
[/quote]
Let me try to summarize so far the question I asked at the beginning
of
this thread.
I asked whether the cost in energy from Windmills of Denmark is
greater
for recharging rechargeable batteries or whether it is better to use
that energy
to make recycled batteries into new one time life batteries. So the
question
I asked at the beginning is which is the better energy option:
a) recharge lithium batteries overnight
b) insert a new one time use lithium battery
In summary of the entire Denmark strategy:
(1) To use renewable Windmills for electricity and to use that
electricity to power
society
(2) how to use the unused electrity: (2.1) rechargeable battery or
(2.2) remanufacture a
recycled lithium battery
The conversation so far has not answered whether 2.1 is better than
2.2. I believe
2.2 is the better option from experience of rechargeable batteries. My
experience
is that they are aggravating with less power.
But let me ask a different question. Can Denmark set up Leyden jars?
Industrial
size leyden jars to store electricity? Or are Leyden Jars a poor
storage of electricity?
Let me ask another question. Is the use of electricity to break down
water into
its components of 2H and O a good use of that energy? Is it better to
use electricity
to break down water than it is to use electricity to recharge a
battery? If it is, well,
then the answer for Denmark is clear. To use all the electricity from
windmills for
battery making and what is excess electricity to convert water into 2H
and O.
Has anyone computed the energy use of recharging batteries versus the
conversion
of water into 2H and O? Which is the better choice?
And, let us bring in the idea of salt NaCl. Is it of energy savings to
use electricity
to convert salt into its components of Na and Cl? Here the trouble
would be that
whether pure Na or pure Cl is a fuel for transportation? I wonder if
we can
set up pure Cl and pure Na as a battery where the two come together to
yield
back the energy of separation, without explosion of course.
One last question for tonight? What is the best energy storage of
excess electricity
when the use is that of breaking down molecules? Is it water or salt.
And related to
that question is whether there is a nuclear reaction of electricity.
Is there a element
in which we can run in electricity and transform the radioactivity of
that element. Thorium
is abundant and whether electricity can make thorium a better fuel?
These are exciting new times since the world is changing rapidly to
find clean renewable
energy, so alot of question abound.
Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies |
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