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| 23vl... |
 Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 5:21 am |
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On Oct 30, 8:43 am, darwinist <darwin... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]Have you ever had your mind changed (or made up) about political
issues, due to reading a story?
If we can say that Sci-fi examines human nature in new settings, this
inevitably includes politics. Which stories or writers have the best
political ideas that you've seen?
[/quote]
Yes,I think that I turned into something of a rational anarchist after
reading "The Moon is a harsh Mistress"
I also tend to agree with some of the political viewpoints depicted it
Terry Pratchet's "Diskworld" books.
Same goes for Vernor Vinge's books. |
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| Mark Reichert... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:58 am |
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On Oct 31, 11:51 am, Shawn Wilson <ikonoql... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
[quote]On Oct 30, 6:20 pm, Mark Reichert <Mark_Reich... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
There's also the problem that anything that assumes "perfect
information" (classic economic bullshit)
Well, no. Functionally, you have perfect information (at least close
enough) about your day to day purchases. It isn't a deep assumption.
Adding in information to the system doesn't change things in any way
worth the effort 99 times out of 100.
[/quote]
We already know you're detached from reality due to your belief in
classic economic bullshit. No need for you to keep proving it.
[quote]It worked better when there were three networks trying to gain and
hold truly mass audiences while protecting themselves by spending
enough acquiring reasonable proof of what they broadcast. They had a
better record and engendered more trust because they had to.
Really? You sure about that? You ever see the hatchett job they did
on McCarthy? There never was a 'golden age' of journalistic
responsibility. They just weren't getting caught.
[/quote]
The golden moment of journalistic watchdog behavior towards right wing
hatchet men is a hatchet job only to right wing hatchet men. I'd
thank you for self identifying yourself, except you did that long ago.
How do you like being a blockhead or dummie? I'm assuming from all
your past comments you were a Reaganite.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/29/gorbachev-george-h-w-bush_n_339147..html |
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| Shawn Wilson... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:07 am |
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On Nov 1, 12:58 pm, Mark Reichert <Mark_Reich... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
[quote]It worked better when there were three networks trying to gain and
hold truly mass audiences while protecting themselves by spending
enough acquiring reasonable proof of what they broadcast. They had a
better record and engendered more trust because they had to.
Really? You sure about that? You ever see the hatchett job they did
on McCarthy? There never was a 'golden age' of journalistic
responsibility. They just weren't getting caught.
The golden moment of journalistic watchdog behavior towards right wing
hatchet men is a hatchet job only to right wing hatchet men. I'd
thank you for self identifying yourself, except you did that long ago.
[/quote]
In other words, you bought their bullshit hook, line and sinker... |
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| rochrist... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 11:06 am |
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Shawn Wilson wrote:
[quote]On Oct 30, 9:23 pm, Mike Ash <m... at (no spam) mikeash.com> wrote:
Shawn's reasoning on global warming much like considering a loaded gun
pointed straight at your chest, and evaluating it based on the
consequences of having a bullet placed one foot behind you. While that
may be perfectly harmless, it neatly ignores how the bullet actually
achieves that position.
Actually, my reasoning is based on economic analysis of the
consequences if global warming were 'real'. Hard to come up with
negatives. Lots of positives. I don't do paranoia.
[/quote]
You do seem to do stupid quite well though. |
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| Don Aitken... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 11:15 am |
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On Sun, 1 Nov 2009 07:21:18 -0800 (PST), 23vl <2389vbl at (no spam) gmail.com>
wrote:
[quote]On Oct 30, 8:43Â am, darwinist <darwin... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
Have you ever had your mind changed (or made up) about political
issues, due to reading a story?
If we can say that Sci-fi examines human nature in new settings, this
inevitably includes politics. Which stories or writers have the best
political ideas that you've seen?
Yes,I think that I turned into something of a rational anarchist after
reading "The Moon is a harsh Mistress"
[/quote]
I've never understood people (and there seem to be a lot of them) who
take their politics from "Moon". Do they just not notice that it is a
satire, the point of which is that the Loonies are *less* free after
their revolution than they were before, when they were convicts?
--
Don Aitken
Mail to the From: address is not read.
To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com" |
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| Michael Stemper... |
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:40 am |
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In article <opbre5pllpvsdaj6b29bqjiht77nkd1m6h at (no spam) 4ax.com>, Don Aitken <don-aitken at (no spam) freeuk.com> writes:
[quote]On Sun, 1 Nov 2009 07:21:18 -0800 (PST), 23vl <2389vbl at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
Yes,I think that I turned into something of a rational anarchist after
reading "The Moon is a harsh Mistress"
I've never understood people (and there seem to be a lot of them) who
take their politics from "Moon". Do they just not notice that it is a
satire, the point of which is that the Loonies are *less* free after
their revolution than they were before, when they were convicts?
[/quote]
I cerainly never saw that. I saw various people grinding their personal
axes in the "Constitutional Convention" after the revolution was over.
I never saw any indication that their various strange platforms were
put into place -- or that they weren't. Manny didn't really talk much
about the aftermath, as near as I can recall.
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
91.2% of all statistics are made up by the person quoting them. |
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| trag... |
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:47 am |
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On Oct 30, 2:05 pm, "Mike Schilling" <mscottschill... at (no spam) hotmail.com>
wrote:
[quote]Shawn Wilson wrote:
Do you think the current world is inferior to the one of 15000 years
ago?
Of course. They didn't even have baseball then.
[/quote]
Nor Icees or Slurpees.
Nor effective contraception. Nor decent neo-natal care. I was
reading the Wiki article on Thomas Jefferson the other day the lists
of dates of deaths for wives and children was horrifying. And that
was barely 250 years ago. |
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| trag... |
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:51 am |
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On Oct 30, 2:54 pm, tg <tgdenn... at (no spam) earthlink.net> wrote:
[quote]Classic failure of quantitative reasoning. Nobody is worrying about
the planet being 'warmer' or 'cooler'. The problem is that rapid
changes in energy balance lead to local disruptions in human
populations. Your views about economics are similarly distorted by an
inability to think in terms of systems and numbers.
[/quote]
Several months ago we established that he does not understand the
notion of control systems nor how positive feedback in such is a *bad
thing*. |
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| trag... |
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:58 am |
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On Oct 30, 3:14 pm, Michael Grosberg <grosberg.mich... at (no spam) gmail.com>
wrote:
[quote]On Oct 30, 7:43 am, darwinist <darwin... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
Have you ever had your mind changed (or made up) about political
issues, due to reading a story?
If we can say that Sci-fi examines human nature in new settings, this
inevitably includes politics. Which stories or writers have the best
political ideas that you've seen?
Great subject!
Yes, I've actually changed my mind reading SF - twice.
I was brought up in a left-leaning household, but when I started
reading SF, I slowly chaneg my mind.
snip
it, but slowly my mind was shaped to assume private enterprise was the
answer, that government stifled progress and was slow and stupid,
snip
come: the fragmented society of Snow Crash is the Libertarian dream
turned into a nightmare. TPB is the opposite: it's a mega-super-happy
Libertarian utopia. But Snow Crash managed to convince me, while TPB
was so over the top it became a parody, and only managed to make
Libertarianism seem ludicrous. I'm now back in the social-democrat
camp.
[/quote]
The thing that convinced me was six years of unemployment while
holding a recent B.S. in electrical engineering with a high (3.5+) GPA
from a major university.
If you examine it, I think you'll find that much of libertarianism and
conservative thinking (at least amongst empathic people) turns on the
belief that a person who wants a job can find a job in the USA. The
USA is the "land of opportunity". If you work hard, get a good
education, etc. etc. you'll do at least okay. If you're unemployed,
so the thinking goes, it's your own lazy fault.
I was about three sheets of paper from living under a bridge. And
the media was continuing to spout that there's a shortage of technical
workers in the USA. And the officers of major corps claim that in
interviews too.
I no longer believe that anyone who wants a job and works hard can get
one in the USA. From that, much of libertarianism and classic
conservatism falls, if you care about your fellow man at all.
I've been working at a wonderful job for over two years now, but only
because the manager who hired me out of school brought me into a new
company he was consulting for when he had the opportunity.
The idea that all our out-of-work folks are going to retrain and find
new jobs doesn't hold up to reality, given my experiences. The job
market doesn't want older retrained folks. |
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| trag... |
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:09 am |
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On Oct 30, 7:51 pm, "Mike Schilling" <mscottschill... at (no spam) hotmail.com>
wrote:
[quote]Howard Brazee wrote:
Studies have confirmed that we don't want too many choices.
So we irrationally [1] eliminate a boatload of them to make the choice
easier. At least, that's what I do when confronted with hundreds of TV
channels, some of which are probably showing something more entertaining
than the Scrubs rerun I eventaully choose.
[/quote]
It's easier just to stop subscribing to cable. That eliminates all
the channels except the ones you can pick up on broadcast and saves
you boatloads of money which you can spend on season DVDs of the few
shows only on cable which were worth watching... |
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| Juho Julkunen... |
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:19 am |
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Guest
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In article <hcpbro$vf8$5 at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org>, Michael Stemper
(mstemper at (no spam) walkabout.empros.com) says...
[quote]In article <opbre5pllpvsdaj6b29bqjiht77nkd1m6h at (no spam) 4ax.com>, Don Aitken <don-aitken at (no spam) freeuk.com> writes:
On Sun, 1 Nov 2009 07:21:18 -0800 (PST), 23vl <2389vbl at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
Yes,I think that I turned into something of a rational anarchist after
reading "The Moon is a harsh Mistress"
I've never understood people (and there seem to be a lot of them) who
take their politics from "Moon". Do they just not notice that it is a
satire, the point of which is that the Loonies are *less* free after
their revolution than they were before, when they were convicts?
[/quote]
Given that the poster above became a rational anarchist rather than
socialist (what the Loonies became), I'd say he did notice. Getting
inspiration for one's politics from a book doesn't require one to ape
everything in that book. For example, if someone chances their
political leaning after reading _1984_ it might not be because they
just didn't notice that state socialism might not be all that great.
[quote]I cerainly never saw that. I saw various people grinding their personal
axes in the "Constitutional Convention" after the revolution was over.
I never saw any indication that their various strange platforms were
put into place -- or that they weren't. Manny didn't really talk much
about the aftermath, as near as I can recall.
[/quote]
There was more than enough indication that they were headed for
Sovietville.
--
Juho Julkunen |
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| Drak Bibliophile... |
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:48 am |
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"Juho Julkunen" <giaotanj at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.255a68605cc9d2d99897cc at (no spam) news.kolumbus.fi...
[quote]In article <hcpbro$vf8$5 at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org>, Michael Stemper
(mstemper at (no spam) walkabout.empros.com) says...
In article <opbre5pllpvsdaj6b29bqjiht77nkd1m6h at (no spam) 4ax.com>, Don Aitken
don-aitken at (no spam) freeuk.com> writes:
On Sun, 1 Nov 2009 07:21:18 -0800 (PST), 23vl <2389vbl at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
Yes,I think that I turned into something of a rational anarchist after
reading "The Moon is a harsh Mistress"
I've never understood people (and there seem to be a lot of them) who
take their politics from "Moon". Do they just not notice that it is a
satire, the point of which is that the Loonies are *less* free after
their revolution than they were before, when they were convicts?
Given that the poster above became a rational anarchist rather than
socialist (what the Loonies became), I'd say he did notice. Getting
inspiration for one's politics from a book doesn't require one to ape
everything in that book. For example, if someone chances their
political leaning after reading _1984_ it might not be because they
just didn't notice that state socialism might not be all that great.
I cerainly never saw that. I saw various people grinding their personal
axes in the "Constitutional Convention" after the revolution was over.
I never saw any indication that their various strange platforms were
put into place -- or that they weren't. Manny didn't really talk much
about the aftermath, as near as I can recall.
There was more than enough indication that they were headed for
Sovietville.
--
Juho Julkunen
[/quote]
It has been awhile since I read Moon but I didn't see any evidence for
"heading for Sovietville". Especially when you consider how much the
people's vote counted in the Soviet Union..
Oh did you read RAH's _Cat Who Walked Through Walls_? There was a 'visit'
to the Lunar Republic of Moon and there was a scene with various private
rescue services wanting to help out the main characters who had faked an
emergency landing.
That sure didn't sound like "Sovietville" to me.
--
Paul Howard (Alias Drak Bibliophile), AIM id DrakeBookLover
*
Sometimes The Dragon Wins! [Polite Dragon Smile]
* |
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| Mike Schilling... |
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:12 pm |
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trag wrote:
[quote]
It's easier just to stop subscribing to cable. That eliminates all
the channels except the ones you can pick up on broadcast and saves
you boatloads of money which you can spend on season DVDs of the few
shows only on cable which were worth watching...
[/quote]
Substitute Netflix for buying the DVDs and that's pretty much what I do. |
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| Mike Ash... |
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:51 pm |
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Guest
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In article
<fcd5a0c6-cb07-4317-89c7-0a40c8575308 at (no spam) g23g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,
trag <trag at (no spam) io.com> wrote:
[quote]On Oct 30, 2:54 pm, tg <tgdenn... at (no spam) earthlink.net> wrote:
Classic failure of quantitative reasoning. Nobody is worrying about
the planet being 'warmer' or 'cooler'. The problem is that rapid
changes in energy balance lead to local disruptions in human
populations. Your views about economics are similarly distorted by an
inability to think in terms of systems and numbers.
Several months ago we established that he does not understand the
notion of control systems nor how positive feedback in such is a *bad
thing*.
[/quote]
How could positive feedback be a bad thing? "Positive" always means
good, doesn't it?
--
Mike Ash
Radio Free Earth
Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon |
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| Michael Stemper... |
| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:21 am |
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Guest
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In article <OIadnRtjIK3x-3HXnZ2dnUVZ_r-dnZ2d at (no spam) earthlink.com>, "Steven L." <sdlitvin at (no spam) earthlink.net> writes:
[quote]Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
Well, it also assumes LONG TERM rational actors, which isn't the
same as all participants pursing their own self-interest. The problem
there isn't just that people aren't generally likely to look forward 20
years to see if their current self interest might work against them when
carried through; it's also that to apply your long-term enlightened self
interest properly, you need nigh-omniscience so that you can tell how
your (say) building a factory along the river today will affect the
economic impact of a flood in that area 20 years from now.
No, that's not as big of a problem for capitalism.
Because any society is always a work in progress.
If something we do today has unintended consequences 50 years from now,
then our descendants will have to handle those consequences.
[/quote]
Which reminds me suspiciously of the conversation between Hober Mallow
and Ankor Jael at the end of "The Merchant Princes" (v/t "The Big and
the Little"):
"So then," said Jael, "you're establishing a plutocracy. You're
making us a land of traders and merchant princes. What then of
the future?"
Mallow lifted his gloomy face, and exclaimed fiercely, "What
business of mine is the future? No doubt Seldon has forseen
it and prepared against it. There will be other crises in
the time to come when money power has become as dead a force
as religion is now. Let my successors solve those new problems,
as I have solved the one of today."
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else. |
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