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 Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 6:34 am |
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| Jack Linthicum... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 6:40 am |
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On Oct 29, 12:34 pm, dumpst... at (no spam) hotmail.com wrote:
[quote]"The Emdrive is an ‘impossible’ drive that
generates thrust from a closed system.
To critics it’s a flat-out junk science, not
even worth thinking about. But its inventor,
Roger Shawyer, has doggedly continued
his work, and, as Danger Room reported
last year, Chinese scientists claimed to
have validated his math and were building
their own version."
See:
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2009/10/impossible-drive-designers-dr...
[/quote]
Another "Cold Fusion"? |
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 7:11 am |
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On Oct 29, 9:40 am, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi... at (no spam) earthlink.net>
wrote:
[quote]On Oct 29, 12:34 pm, dumpst... at (no spam) hotmail.com wrote:
"The Emdrive is an ‘impossible’ drive that
generates thrust from a closed system.
To critics it’s a flat-out junk science, not
even worth thinking about. But its inventor,
Roger Shawyer, has doggedly continued
his work, and, as Danger Room reported
last year, Chinese scientists claimed to
have validated his math and were building
their own version."
See:
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2009/10/impossible-drive-designers-dr...
Another "Cold Fusion"?
[/quote]
Could be.
Either the Chinese are going to waste some
money on this, or they're going to get ahead
of us on something big.
I'll assume it's "waste some money" until I see
evidence otherwise. |
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| Jack Linthicum... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 7:39 am |
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| Frogwatch... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 7:51 am |
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On Oct 29, 1:39 pm, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi... at (no spam) earthlink.net>
wrote:
[quote]On Oct 29, 12:34 pm, dumpst... at (no spam) hotmail.com wrote:
"The Emdrive is an ‘impossible’ drive that
generates thrust from a closed system.
To critics it’s a flat-out junk science, not
even worth thinking about. But its inventor,
Roger Shawyer, has doggedly continued
his work, and, as Danger Room reported
last year, Chinese scientists claimed to
have validated his math and were building
their own version."
See:
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2009/10/impossible-drive-designers-dr...
It's been around for a while
http://www.newscientist.com/data/images/ns/av/shawyertheory.pdf
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/hyperbola/2009/10/video-controversi...
[/quote]
"Cold Fusion" at least made sense. |
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| Jack Linthicum... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 7:56 am |
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On Oct 29, 1:51 pm, Frogwatch <ohara... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote:
[quote]On Oct 29, 1:39 pm, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi... at (no spam) earthlink.net
wrote:
On Oct 29, 12:34 pm, dumpst... at (no spam) hotmail.com wrote:
"The Emdrive is an ‘impossible’ drive that
generates thrust from a closed system.
To critics it’s a flat-out junk science, not
even worth thinking about. But its inventor,
Roger Shawyer, has doggedly continued
his work, and, as Danger Room reported
last year, Chinese scientists claimed to
have validated his math and were building
their own version."
See:
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2009/10/impossible-drive-designers-dr....
It's been around for a while
http://www.newscientist.com/data/images/ns/av/shawyertheory.pdf
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/hyperbola/2009/10/video-controversi...
"Cold Fusion" at least made sense.
[/quote]
and rockets make sense? "There's nothing to push against in space"
Famous quote. |
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| Frogwatch... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:03 am |
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On Oct 29, 1:39 pm, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi... at (no spam) earthlink.net>
wrote:
[quote]On Oct 29, 12:34 pm, dumpst... at (no spam) hotmail.com wrote:
"The Emdrive is an ‘impossible’ drive that
generates thrust from a closed system.
To critics it’s a flat-out junk science, not
even worth thinking about. But its inventor,
Roger Shawyer, has doggedly continued
his work, and, as Danger Room reported
last year, Chinese scientists claimed to
have validated his math and were building
their own version."
See:
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2009/10/impossible-drive-designers-dr...
It's been around for a while
http://www.newscientist.com/data/images/ns/av/shawyertheory.pdf
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/hyperbola/2009/10/video-controversi...
[/quote]
His equation #1 is
F = q(E + vB) but he references the Q of the cavity in the sentence
above this. However, q and Q are not the same thing as he implies
they are. Q is a number while q is charge. Next, he uses the group
velocity of the microwave in equation #1 for v…………NO, this is WRONG..
v in this equation is the velocity of a charge not of a chargeless
photon. Perhaps he is implying that because the wave is moving that
its velocity should apply to the B field of the wave, NO(not quite
certain of this). Even if it were true, the field reverses itself at
several GHz so the force would only cause the rocket to wiggle back
and forth with time averaged force of zero.. |
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| Richard... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:14 am |
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On Oct 29, 1:03 pm, Frogwatch <ohara... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote:
[quote]On Oct 29, 1:39 pm, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi... at (no spam) earthlink.net
wrote:
On Oct 29, 12:34 pm, dumpst... at (no spam) hotmail.com wrote:
"The Emdrive is an ‘impossible’ drive that
generates thrust from a closed system.
To critics it’s a flat-out junk science, not
even worth thinking about. But its inventor,
Roger Shawyer, has doggedly continued
his work, and, as Danger Room reported
last year, Chinese scientists claimed to
have validated his math and were building
their own version."
See:
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2009/10/impossible-drive-designers-dr....
It's been around for a while
http://www.newscientist.com/data/images/ns/av/shawyertheory.pdf
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/hyperbola/2009/10/video-controversi...
His equation #1 is
F = q(E + vB) but he references the Q of the cavity in the sentence
above this. However, q and Q are not the same thing as he implies
they are. Q is a number while q is charge. Next, he uses the group
velocity of the microwave in equation #1 for v…………NO, this is WRONG.
v in this equation is the velocity of a charge not of a chargeless
photon. Perhaps he is implying that because the wave is moving that
its velocity should apply to the B field of the wave, NO(not quite
certain of this). Even if it were true, the field reverses itself at
several GHz so the force would only cause the rocket to wiggle back
and forth with time averaged force of zero..
[/quote]
Ever read a description for AC current? "The current changes
direction X times per second"...right....ok, so how the hell does it
ever go anywhere... |
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| Dan... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:24 am |
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Jack Linthicum wrote:
[quote]On Oct 29, 12:34 pm, dumpst... at (no spam) hotmail.com wrote:
"The Emdrive is an ‘impossible’ drive that
generates thrust from a closed system.
To critics it’s a flat-out junk science, not
even worth thinking about. But its inventor,
Roger Shawyer, has doggedly continued
his work, and, as Danger Room reported
last year, Chinese scientists claimed to
have validated his math and were building
their own version."
See:
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2009/10/impossible-drive-designers-dr...
Another "Cold Fusion"?
[/quote]
Maybe someone should introduce him to Moller.
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired |
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| Jack Linthicum... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:04 pm |
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On Oct 29, 7:53 pm, Pat Flannery <flan... at (no spam) daktel.com> wrote:
[quote]Jack Linthicum wrote:
See:
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2009/10/impossible-drive-designers-dr....
Another "Cold Fusion"?
"The CEAS 2009 paper outlines recent progress and plans. Previous
thrusters generated relatively modest forces; the latest version now
being built is based on a cooled superconductor and should generate over
300 pounds of thrust for a 6-kilowatt input, Shawyer promises. (But does
not yet appear to have done so.) The plan is to mount four of these
thrusters on an unmanned demonstration vehicle which will weigh about a
thousand pounds. The craft will have no wings: It will be supported by
the Emdrives and propelled by jet engines to about 230 knots. It will be
capable of vertical takeoff and hovering silently in place. If
successful, it will be adapted as a personal transport."
That seems like a awful lot to squeeze into 1,000 pounds. :-D
Pat
[/quote]
No radio or air conditioner. I always wonder if these guys who dream
of 200 mph commuters have ever seen a crash at a leisurely 60 mph. I
imagine some clown texting, on his cellular and trying to read a road
map doing 230 mph down a crowded airway. |
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| Jim Wilkins... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:42 pm |
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| Wayne Throop... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:56 pm |
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::: "The Emdrive is an impossible drive that generates thrust from a
::: closed system. [...]
::: http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2009/10/impossible-drive-designers-dr...
:: Another "Cold Fusion"?
: Strobe <Strobe at (no spam) nyc.Beep!Beep!.com>
: More likely another "Dean drive".
In the case of the Dean Drive, iirc, there was at least agreement
on exactly where the various conservation laws were broken, and the
math of it was fairly straightforward, as such things go, both sides
agreeing on what was what. Disagreement on whether the physics followed
the math, but not on the math itself.
Here, the one set of folks are saying "you're not doing your
math right, the equations don't allow that", and the other is saying
"oh yes they do".
So, IMO, it's considerably worse than either cold fusion, or Dean drive.
I mean, there's deep math showing that time-displacement-invariance and
space-displacement invariance of the basic equations which the physical
system is described by, ensure the conservation laws will hold, unless
you make a mistake. And nobody's shown where the invariances aren't
true; they just say the conservation is wrong. So I think it's much
more like squaring the circle or trisecting the angle. And then using
that to prove the earth is cubical.
Wayne Throop throopw at (no spam) sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw |
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| Pat Flannery... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:53 pm |
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Jack Linthicum wrote:
[quote]
See:
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2009/10/impossible-drive-designers-dr...
Another "Cold Fusion"?
[/quote]
"The CEAS 2009 paper outlines recent progress and plans. Previous
thrusters generated relatively modest forces; the latest version now
being built is based on a cooled superconductor and should generate over
300 pounds of thrust for a 6-kilowatt input, Shawyer promises. (But does
not yet appear to have done so.) The plan is to mount four of these
thrusters on an unmanned demonstration vehicle which will weigh about a
thousand pounds. The craft will have no wings: It will be supported by
the Emdrives and propelled by jet engines to about 230 knots. It will be
capable of vertical takeoff and hovering silently in place. If
successful, it will be adapted as a personal transport."
That seems like a awful lot to squeeze into 1,000 pounds. :-D
Pat |
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| Strobe... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:30 pm |
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On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 09:40:05 -0700 (PDT), Jack Linthicum
<jacklinthicum at (no spam) earthlink.net> wrote:
[quote]On Oct 29, 12:34Â pm, dumpst... at (no spam) hotmail.com wrote:
"The Emdrive is an ‘impossible’ drive that
generates thrust from a closed system.
To critics it’s a flat-out junk science, not
even worth  thinking about. But its inventor,
Roger Shawyer, has doggedly continued
his work, and, as Danger Room reported
last year, Chinese scientists claimed to
have validated his math and were building
their own version."
See:
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2009/10/impossible-drive-designers-dr...
Another "Cold Fusion"?
[/quote]
More likely another "Dean drive". |
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| Pat Flannery... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:49 pm |
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Jim Wilkins wrote:
[quote]
Interesting. The frequency and power levels suggest that the prototype
might have been a trash can nozzle attached to a doorless microwave
oven.
[/quote]
It looks more like some sort of copper rocket engine, or the base feed
on a microwave receiver horn: http://www.rexresearch.com/shawyer/shawyer.htm
Pat |
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