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US drone strikes may break international law: UN...

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Fred J. McCall...

Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 6:15 pm

Guest

"Ray O'Hara" <raymond-ohara at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:

:
:if Cheney and Bush go to Europe you probably will see warrants issued.
:

You Lefty Loons never manage to step outside your own wet dreams, do
you?

It ain't gonna happen, Ray. Give it up. And we won't even mention
the small detail that any country that issues a warrant for one of
those two is pretty much obligated to do the same for Obama and most
of Congress.

--
"Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is
only stupid."
-- Heinrich Heine

Fred J. McCall...

Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 6:24 pm

Guest

"Ray O'Hara" <raymond-ohara at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:

:
:"Fred J. McCall" <fjmccall at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
:news:cdoke5ti5guqc2suvud6h74upuf1bk45c0 at (no spam) 4ax.com...
:> "Ray O'Hara" <raymond-ohara at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
:>
:> :
:> :"Andrew Swallow" <am.swallow at (no spam) btopenworld.com> wrote in message
:> :news:roCdnYd_C9N2pXfXnZ2dnUVZ8sdi4p2d at (no spam) bt.com...
:> :> Fred J. McCall wrote:
:> :>> Matt Wiser <mattwiser_99 at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
:> :>>
:> :>> :
:> :>> :Agreed. And since this is wartime, we know the punishment for wartime
:> :>> :espionage, don't we?
:> :>> :
:> :>>
:> :>> Well, some of us do, but people who act as if it is somehow different
:> :>> than peacetime espionage leave me wondering whether they do.
:> :>>
:> :> In the USA proving espionage is treason in peace time is difficult.
:> :>
:> :
:> :No it's not. getting the death penalty is difficult though.
:> :
:>
:> Oh, really? Do you know the legal definition of treason in this
:> country, Ray?
:>
:> Hint: There have been a grand total of *EIGHT* treason convictions in
:> the entire history of the United States. Does that sound like it's
:> easy to prove ANYTHING is treason?
:>
:> Hint: NONE of those convictions were for espionage. Five of the
:> eight convictions stemmed from WWII (four for broadcasting propaganda
:> and one for torturing Allied POWs) and three were State convictions
:> (two for the Harper's Ferry Raid and one for the Dorr Rebellion).
:>
:
: it's not usually ussed. even in obvious cases like Jeff Davis and R.E.Lee.
:

It's not usually used because it is damned near bloody impossible to
charge and prove.

Jefferson Davis was charged with treason. The government declined to
prosecute the charge. Lee was never even charged. It would have been
hell to 'prove', since they'd have had to somehow prove that the two
had remained citizens of the United States despite both having
declared that they were not and having to be dragged back in by
military force.

--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson

William Black...

Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 6:42 pm

Guest

Fred J. McCall wrote:
[quote]William Black <william.black at (no spam) hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

:Fred J. McCall wrote:
:> William Black <william.black at (no spam) hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
:
:> :Jim Yanik wrote:
:> :
:> :> I note that neither the N.African states nor Afghanistan under the Taliban
:> :> were doing anything to stop the problem pirates/terrorists.
:> :> Thus,justifiable war.
:> :
:> :> at least Pakistan is trying to stop their terrorists.
:> :
:> :
:> :We'll, some of them anyway.
:> :
:> :The Al-Queada linked groups attacking India are still sponsored by the
:> :Pakistani state.
:> :
:
:> Proof? Thought not.
:
:Your government says they are.
:

Wrong.

:
:http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/crt/2000/2441.htm
:

You said "are still sponsored". Your cite is from almost a decade
ago. And even at that, it still doesn't say what you claimed above.
"Concern about reports ... in Kashmir" is *NOT* the same thing as the
United States government asserting that Pakistani-supported terrorists
are attacking India.

Proof? Thought not.

[/quote]
It doesn't matter what I say, you'll just say that 'it isn't proof'

The fact that Dawood Ibrahim is hiding out in Pakistan with the
connivance of the authorities and that there seems to be little or no
sign of any indigenous Muslim terror groups in India (and remember,
they have no problems acknowledging their own Naxalite and Hindu
domestic terror groups) does rather seem to indicate that Pakistan is in
the mix there somewhere.

Plus Pakistan's arrest and prompt release of anyone accused of
connections with Muslim terror in India seems a bit odd as well.

No Fred, if US citizens were being blown up at that rate the evidence
is strong enough to get the US Air Force to bomb them...

--
William Black

"Any number under six"

The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat
single handed with a quarterstaff.

William Black...

Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 6:45 pm

Guest

Ray O'Hara...

Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 8:47 pm

Guest

"Fred J. McCall" <fjmccall at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:imkpe51taetfab13nuflild5nfhujmp8f1 at (no spam) 4ax.com...
[quote]"Ray O'Hara" <raymond-ohara at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:

:
:if Cheney and Bush go to Europe you probably will see warrants issued.
:

You Lefty Loons never manage to step outside your own wet dreams, do
you?

It ain't gonna happen, Ray. Give it up. And we won't even mention
the small detail that any country that issues a warrant for one of
those two is pretty much obligated to do the same for Obama and most
of Congress.

[/quote]

you won't see them travel there to find out.
there are plenty around the world who'd love to see them indicted.

Ray O'Hara...

Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 8:49 pm

Guest

"William Black" <william.black at (no spam) hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:hcilod$f5i$2 at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org...
[quote]Fred J. McCall wrote:
William Black <william.black at (no spam) hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

:Fred J. McCall wrote:
:> William Black <william.black at (no spam) hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
:> :> :Jim Yanik wrote:
:> :> :> :> I note that neither the N.African states nor Afghanistan
under the Taliban :> :> were doing anything to stop the problem
pirates/terrorists.
:> :> Thus,justifiable war.
:> :> :> :> at least Pakistan is trying to stop their terrorists.
:> :
:> :
:> :We'll, some of them anyway.
:> :
:> :The Al-Queada linked groups attacking India are still sponsored by
the :> :Pakistani state.
:> :
:> :> Proof? Thought not.
:
:Your government says they are.
:

Wrong.

:
:http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/crt/2000/2441.htm
:

You said "are still sponsored". Your cite is from almost a decade
ago. And even at that, it still doesn't say what you claimed above.
"Concern about reports ... in Kashmir" is *NOT* the same thing as the
United States government asserting that Pakistani-supported terrorists
are attacking India.

Proof? Thought not.

It doesn't matter what I say, you'll just say that 'it isn't proof'

The fact that Dawood Ibrahim is hiding out in Pakistan with the connivance
of the authorities and that there seems to be little or no sign of any
indigenous Muslim terror groups in India (and remember, they have no
problems acknowledging their own Naxalite and Hindu domestic terror
groups) does rather seem to indicate that Pakistan is in the mix there
somewhere.

Plus Pakistan's arrest and prompt release of anyone accused of connections
with Muslim terror in India seems a bit odd as well.

No Fred, if US citizens were being blown up at that rate the evidence is
strong enough to get the US Air Force to bomb them...

--
William Black
[/quote]
It does seem parts of the Paki Govt is in cahoots with terrorists.

Ray O'Hara...

Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 8:51 pm

Guest

"William Black" <william.black at (no spam) hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:hcigsu$86v$2 at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org...
[quote]Ray O'Hara wrote:

of course the illegal ongoing occupation of Ireland is ignored by you
limey twits.

I think you'll find that the people of Northern Ireland get a vote.

I know you don't like it Ray, but there you go...

[/quote]
in 20 years when catholics outnumber the prots we'll see how that works
out.
the birth rate favors the Irish over the Scottish interlopers.

Ray O'Hara...

Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 8:55 pm

Guest

"Fred J. McCall" <fjmccall at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ktkpe5pmedue3e090hci2o35l1kl4mu22c at (no spam) 4ax.com...
[quote]"Ray O'Hara" <raymond-ohara at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:

:
:"Fred J. McCall" <fjmccall at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
:news:cdoke5ti5guqc2suvud6h74upuf1bk45c0 at (no spam) 4ax.com...
:> "Ray O'Hara" <raymond-ohara at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
:
:> :
:> :"Andrew Swallow" <am.swallow at (no spam) btopenworld.com> wrote in message
:> :news:roCdnYd_C9N2pXfXnZ2dnUVZ8sdi4p2d at (no spam) bt.com...
:> :> Fred J. McCall wrote:
:> :>> Matt Wiser <mattwiser_99 at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
:> :
:> :>> :
:> :>> :Agreed. And since this is wartime, we know the punishment for
wartime
:> :>> :espionage, don't we?
:> :>> :
:> :
:> :>> Well, some of us do, but people who act as if it is somehow
different
:> :>> than peacetime espionage leave me wondering whether they do.
:> :
:> :> In the USA proving espionage is treason in peace time is difficult.
:> :
:> :
:> :No it's not. getting the death penalty is difficult though.
:> :
:
:> Oh, really? Do you know the legal definition of treason in this
:> country, Ray?
:
:> Hint: There have been a grand total of *EIGHT* treason convictions in
:> the entire history of the United States. Does that sound like it's
:> easy to prove ANYTHING is treason?
:
:> Hint: NONE of those convictions were for espionage. Five of the
:> eight convictions stemmed from WWII (four for broadcasting propaganda
:> and one for torturing Allied POWs) and three were State convictions
:> (two for the Harper's Ferry Raid and one for the Dorr Rebellion).
:
:
: it's not usually ussed. even in obvious cases like Jeff Davis and
R.E.Lee.
:

It's not usually used because it is damned near bloody impossible to
charge and prove.

Jefferson Davis was charged with treason. The government declined to
prosecute the charge. Lee was never even charged. It would have been
hell to 'prove', since they'd have had to somehow prove that the two
had remained citizens of the United States despite both having
declared that they were not and having to be dragged back in by
military force.

[/quote]
the Union never recognized the CSA nor the fact it had any citizens, so
under U.S. law they were traitors
Lee was covered under Grant's terms and they held Davis long enough for him
to become irrelevent.
they declined to prosecute not because he wasn't guilty but to not give him
a last forum and make him a matyr.
ignoring him was the smart move.

BlackBeard...

Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:02 pm

Guest

On Oct 31, 7:51 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <raymond-oh... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
[quote]"William Black" <william.bl... at (no spam) hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message

news:hcigsu$86v$2 at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org...

Ray O'Hara wrote:

of course the illegal ongoing occupation of Ireland is ignored by you
limey twits.

I think you'll find that the people of Northern Ireland get a vote.

I know you don't like it Ray, but there you go...

in 20 years when catholics outnumber the prots we'll see how that works
out.
the birth rate favors the Irish over the Scottish interlopers.
[/quote]
Christ! They're trying to get over it Ray.
Interlopers? The Scots have been there for over 400 years. Your
family has been here for less than 300 you interloping twit.
Hiberniores Hibernis ipsis!
It's delusional drunks in Boston et al that want to keep the battle
going. Other than the fanatics, the Irish want to be done with it.
I try to always be cordial but you bring out the worst in me because
you are such an example of the worst of the internet. Do you ever
think before you post? Can you put together a cogent post?
I spent quite a bit of time in Ireland visiting family.
Conversations about the troubles often boiled own to "Can those
American idiots in Boston/NY/Philadelphia just mind their own
business!" And let those that have lived through the tragedy make the
decisions. It's easy for cowards to sit a thousand miles away and yell
"Up the rebels, fight on!" and send money for guns. It's a lot
tougher when you or your family is spilling its blood.
This was often the sentiment at dinners or such that included both
Catholics and Protestants.

BB
AKA
Sean Patrick O'Herron

Fred J. McCall...

Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 11:58 pm

Guest

William Black <william.black at (no spam) hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

:Fred J. McCall wrote:
:> William Black <william.black at (no spam) hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
:>
:> :Fred J. McCall wrote:
:> :> William Black <william.black at (no spam) hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
:> :>
:> :> :Jim Yanik wrote:
:> :> :>
:> :> :> I note that neither the N.African states nor Afghanistan under the Taliban
:> :> :> were doing anything to stop the problem pirates/terrorists.
:> :> :> Thus,justifiable war.
:> :> :>
:> :> :> at least Pakistan is trying to stop their terrorists.
:> :> :>
:> :> :
:> :> :We'll, some of them anyway.
:> :> :
:> :> :The Al-Queada linked groups attacking India are still sponsored by the
:> :> :Pakistani state.
:> :> :
:> :>
:> :> Proof? Thought not.
:> :
:> :Your government says they are.
:> :
:>
:> Wrong.
:>
:> :
:> :http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/crt/2000/2441.htm
:> :
:>
:> You said "are still sponsored". Your cite is from almost a decade
:> ago. And even at that, it still doesn't say what you claimed above.
:> "Concern about reports ... in Kashmir" is *NOT* the same thing as the
:> United States government asserting that Pakistani-supported terrorists
:> are attacking India.
:>
:> Proof? Thought not.
:>
:
:It doesn't matter what I say, you'll just say that 'it isn't proof'
:

Not when what you offer doesn't support your original claims, no, that
isn't proof.

:
:The fact that Dawood Ibrahim is hiding out in Pakistan with the
:connivance of the authorities and that there seems to be little or no
:sign of any indigenous Muslim terror groups in India (and remember,
:they have no problems acknowledging their own Naxalite and Hindu
:domestic terror groups) does rather seem to indicate that Pakistan is in
:the mix there somewhere.
:

"Does rather seem to indicate" is hardly proof when coming from
someone with your biases. You're aware that Pakistani military forces
are fighting pitched battles in parts of the country, right?

:
:Plus Pakistan's arrest and prompt release of anyone accused of
:connections with Muslim terror in India seems a bit odd as well.
:

Life through your Krazy Kaleidoscope isn't convincing 'proof', either.

:
:No Fred, if US citizens were being blown up at that rate the evidence
:is strong enough to get the US Air Force to bomb them...
:

In other words, you've got nothing but bluster and bias. About what I
thought.

--
"You take the lies out of him, and he'll shrink to the size of
your hat; you take the malice out of him, and he'll disappear."
-- Mark Twain

William Black...

Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 8:19 am

Guest

Ray O'Hara wrote:
[quote]"William Black" <william.black at (no spam) hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:hcilod$f5i$2 at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org...
Fred J. McCall wrote:
William Black <william.black at (no spam) hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

:Fred J. McCall wrote:
:> William Black <william.black at (no spam) hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
:> :> :Jim Yanik wrote:
:> :> :> :> I note that neither the N.African states nor Afghanistan
under the Taliban :> :> were doing anything to stop the problem
pirates/terrorists.
:> :> Thus,justifiable war.
:> :> :> :> at least Pakistan is trying to stop their terrorists.
:> :
:> :
:> :We'll, some of them anyway.
:> :
:> :The Al-Queada linked groups attacking India are still sponsored by
the :> :Pakistani state.
:> :
:> :> Proof? Thought not.
:
:Your government says they are.
:

Wrong.

:
:http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/crt/2000/2441.htm
:

You said "are still sponsored". Your cite is from almost a decade
ago. And even at that, it still doesn't say what you claimed above.
"Concern about reports ... in Kashmir" is *NOT* the same thing as the
United States government asserting that Pakistani-supported terrorists
are attacking India.

Proof? Thought not.

It doesn't matter what I say, you'll just say that 'it isn't proof'

The fact that Dawood Ibrahim is hiding out in Pakistan with the connivance
of the authorities and that there seems to be little or no sign of any
indigenous Muslim terror groups in India (and remember, they have no
problems acknowledging their own Naxalite and Hindu domestic terror
groups) does rather seem to indicate that Pakistan is in the mix there
somewhere.

Plus Pakistan's arrest and prompt release of anyone accused of connections
with Muslim terror in India seems a bit odd as well.

No Fred, if US citizens were being blown up at that rate the evidence is
strong enough to get the US Air Force to bomb them...

--
William Black

It does seem parts of the Paki Govt is in cahoots with terrorists.

[/quote]
Careful.

You'll upset Fred.

--
William Black

"Any number under six"

The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat
single handed with a quarterstaff.

Arved Sandstrom...

Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 8:46 am

Guest

BlackBeard wrote:
[quote]On Oct 31, 7:51 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <raymond-oh... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
"William Black" <william.bl... at (no spam) hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message

news:hcigsu$86v$2 at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org...

Ray O'Hara wrote:
of course the illegal ongoing occupation of Ireland is ignored by you
limey twits.
I think you'll find that the people of Northern Ireland get a vote.
I know you don't like it Ray, but there you go...
in 20 years when catholics outnumber the prots we'll see how that works
out.
the birth rate favors the Irish over the Scottish interlopers.

Christ! They're trying to get over it Ray.
Interlopers? The Scots have been there for over 400 years. Your
family has been here for less than 300 you interloping twit.
Hiberniores Hibernis ipsis!
It's delusional drunks in Boston et al that want to keep the battle
going. Other than the fanatics, the Irish want to be done with it.
I try to always be cordial but you bring out the worst in me because
you are such an example of the worst of the internet. Do you ever
think before you post? Can you put together a cogent post?
I spent quite a bit of time in Ireland visiting family.
Conversations about the troubles often boiled own to "Can those
American idiots in Boston/NY/Philadelphia just mind their own
business!" And let those that have lived through the tragedy make the
decisions. It's easy for cowards to sit a thousand miles away and yell
"Up the rebels, fight on!" and send money for guns. It's a lot
tougher when you or your family is spilling its blood.
This was often the sentiment at dinners or such that included both
Catholics and Protestants.

BB
AKA
Sean Patrick O'Herron
[/quote]
Nothing worse than exiles, expats and emigrants sometimes, when it comes
to things like this. My grandparents were unwilling emigrants/exiles
themselves, along with thousands of their age group, and it has to be
said, a certain minority of them never really got over it. If the
exile/emigrant community is large enough, that certain minority with
unproductive attitudes and uninformed beliefs is going to exist in each
subsequent generation.

It must be said, there is often also a minority that, when it comes to
interacting with the old country, is helpful and informed and
non-interfering. But you don't often hear about this side of things,
because they don't make good news. And of course there is the majority
in the middle who just want to get on with their new lives, and you
don't hear so much about them either.

Like you said, it's for the people still there, wherever _there_ is, to
make the decisions. It's not helpful for the extremists in an
exile/emigrant community to support extremists back in the ancestral
homeland, because extremists are extremists - by definition they do not
express the will of the majority.

AHS

Fred J. McCall...

Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 2:29 pm

Guest

William Black <william.black at (no spam) hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

:Ray O'Hara wrote:
:>
:> It does seem parts of the Paki Govt is in cahoots with terrorists.
:>
:
:Careful.
:
:You'll upset Fred.
:

<yawn>

Typical Wee Willie blather when the facts are against him.

Why would I be 'upset' at that, Willie? Facts don't upset it. It's
distortions of facts, like what you do (here too), that I find
obnoxious.

--
You are
What you do
When it counts.

Fred J. McCall...

Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 2:44 pm

Guest

Arved Sandstrom <dcest61 at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:

:
:Like you said, it's for the people still there, wherever _there_ is, to
:make the decisions. It's not helpful for the extremists in an
:exile/emigrant community to support extremists back in the ancestral
:homeland, because extremists are extremists - by definition they do not
:express the will of the majority.
:

Of course, we do still seem to come in for a lot of the folks who
stayed home wanting us to make the place into just what we left there
to get away from. Be nice if 'Old Europe' could mind its own
business, too.

--
"I know Slayers. No matter how many people there are around
them, they fight alone."
-- Spike, the vampire

Matt Wiser...

Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 4:06 pm

Guest

On Oct 31, 2:50 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <raymond-oh... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
[quote]"William Black" <william.bl... at (no spam) hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message

news:hcf9hv$vob$3 at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org...> Fred J. McCall wrote:

And the only 'training' they got here was flight training. All the
rest of it was done in camps in Afghanistan.

What other training did they need?

ideological indoctrination for instance.
how to network and plan. small stuff like that.
you know the ability to actually carry out a plan.
[/quote]
And there's been tapes found in AQ safe houses and in those now-
defunct Afghan training camps showing some of the terrorists who did
9-11 going thru training in weapons, unarmed combat, and so forth. CNN
had a show some time back where the tapes were shown. Of course,
Willie and those like him will say that such training was
"irrevelant." Wrong. They were there, they received the training, and
went on their way.

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