| |
 |
|
| Science Forum Index » Economy Forum » Libertarian property rights & problem of original... |
|
Page 9 of 10 Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 Next |
|
| Author |
Message |
| Michael Gordge... |
 Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:39 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
On Nov 6, 7:16 am, darwinist <darwin... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]What if someone makes money using products that were paid for by
taxes, does this mean it's not capitalism either?
[/quote]
Yes thats right, thats not capitalism either, capitalism is a
political system utterly dependent upon human individuals being left
free and alone to make their own descisions as to what they do with
the results of their own energy.
[quote]If using taxes to
make money disqualifies something as capitalism, then nobody engages
in capitalism, since all businesses buy and sell things that arrive
using (tax-funded) roads.
[/quote]
Maybe now you are begining to understand what Rand meant with the
title of her book "Capitalism The Unknown Ideal" perhaps you might
enjoy reading it, but I wont be holding my breath.
Oh and btw, not all roads where I live are or have ever been funded by
tax.
I travel many hundreds of miles every month on privately funded,
privately constructed and privately upkept roads. Indeed, the costs of
all roading in all new housing subdivisions in NZ and Australia and in
privately funded shopping complexes are paid for by private
enterprise, no tax.
And guess what? they can do it at a fraction of the cost and do a much
better job.
MG |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| darwinist... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:57 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
On Nov 6, 9:39 am, Michael Gordge <mikegor... at (no spam) xtra.co.nz> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 6, 7:16 am, darwinist <darwin... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
What if someone makes money using products that were paid for by
taxes, does this mean it's not capitalism either?
Yes thats right, thats not capitalism either, capitalism is a
political system utterly dependent upon human individuals being left
free and alone to make their own descisions as to what they do with
the results of their own energy.
If using taxes to
make money disqualifies something as capitalism, then nobody engages
in capitalism, since all businesses buy and sell things that arrive
using (tax-funded) roads.
Maybe now you are begining to understand what Rand meant with the
title of her book "Capitalism The Unknown Ideal" perhaps you might
enjoy reading it, but I wont be holding my breath.
[/quote]
Thanks for the recommendation. Just to be clear, are you saying that
nobody engages in capitalism if their job or business uses things
built with tax dollars, such as roads, sewerage, water, electricity
grids, etc?
[quote]Oh and btw, not all roads where I live are or have ever been funded by
tax.
I travel many hundreds of miles every month on privately funded,
privately constructed and privately upkept roads. Indeed, the costs of
all roading in all new housing subdivisions in NZ and Australia and in
privately funded shopping complexes are paid for by private
enterprise, no tax.
And guess what? they can do it at a fraction of the cost and do a much
better job.
MG
[/quote]
It's true that not all roads are tax-funded but almost every trip
requires using some tax-funded roads.
The comparison of housing-complex and shopping-centre roads to a
town's public road-system is not really apples to apples. The scale
and complexity is very different. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Rod Speed... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:45 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
John Stafford wrote
[quote]James A. Donald <jamesd at (no spam) echeque.com> wrote
Government investments and businesses usually lose money,
unless they are subsidized, or competition forcibly suppressed,
[/quote]
Plenty of them make money without either.
[quote]and New Zealand's program has not deviated from this record.
[/quote]
Another lie.
[quote]Capitalism requires, among other things, novelty and innovation to
create products upon which to profit and such innovation itself can
be a product.
[/quote]
Utterly mangled. Quite a bit of capitalism is just about supplying what
everyone must have, with very little novelty or innovation involved.
[quote]When the novel has aged to worthless, and the innovation has been
assimilated by competition, then the capitalist enterprise bound to it
peters out and fails.
[/quote]
Like hell it does when its supplying what everyone must have.
[quote]Successful capitalist enterprises innovate, improve or fail.
[/quote]
Mindlessly superficial. Plenty just carry on for a substantial part
of a century or more and dont do much at all of any of those.
[quote]Government bodies are traditionally built to resist entropy, to foster enduring ideals.
[/quote]
Utterly mangled all over again when they are just providing
a service like clean water or roads etc etc etc.
[quote]Ideals are not innovations, nor novel.
[/quote]
There are no ideals involved in the provision of clean water and roads etc.
[quote]Government bodies cannot possibly embrace capitalist methods.
[/quote]
Mindlessly silly.
The only difference is the ownership of the operation.
Yes, you do tend to see less innovation and novelty in govt operations,
that thats true of hordes of non govt operations as well.
[quote]Government should foster a common good through adequate
regulation to deter human efforts to subvert the health of capitalism.
[/quote]
The voters have decided that hordes of things are best done by govt, most
obviously with the military, cops, fire service, the VA system, the CDC etc etc etc.
[quote]For example, government should be smart enough to understand the outrageous
instruments of wealth-creation in order to keep them from destroying the money system.
[/quote]
Hell of a lot easier said than done. Securitization is a very useful idea. Doesnt mean
that it cant be abused tho, just like everything from banking to printing money can be. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| James A. Donald... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:55 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
James A. Donald <jamesd at (no spam) echeque.com> wrote:
[quote]Government investments and businesses usually lose
money, unless they are subsidized, or competition
forcibly suppressed, and New Zealand's program has
not deviated from this record.
[/quote]
John Stafford
[quote]Capitalism requires, among other things, novelty and
innovation to create products upon which to profit and
such innovation itself can be a product.
[/quote]
Government suppresses novelty and innovation. Compare
the results from the Soviet Union, with the results from
the west.
Similarly, compare the results from countries where the
government spends very little on science and technology,
such as Switzerland, with countries where the government
spends a great deal on science and technology, such as
Sweden.
Just as government involvement in venture capitalism
merely produces bureaucracy, swindles and waste,
government funding of arts and science merely produces
grantsmanship and rigid orthodoxy.
The vast and necessarily rigid bureaucracy of government
necessarily and unavoidably has a destructive effect on
innovation.
Just as any art funded by the NEA is necessarily
repetitious rubbish, mindless aping what once was daring
innovation but is now mindless mechanical orthodoxy,
the same applies with government funded science and
technology.
Government funding of science and technology fails as
miserably as government venture capital. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| James A. Donald... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:58 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 04:00:06 -0800 (PST), darwinist
[quote]What makes it cronyism as distinct from capitalism? To
put it another way: when private companies or
individuals put money into the same investment funds
that the government is putting money into (which they
do), is that cronyism or capitalism?
[/quote]
Private public partnerships are invariably on the terms
that the government takes the losses, and private firm
the profits. A private firm will not put money into the
same thing as the government does, except on more
favorable terms, because what the government puts money
into, usually loses money. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Rod Speed... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:18 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
James A. Donald wrote
[quote]John Stafford
James A. Donald <jamesd at (no spam) echeque.com> wrote
Government investments and businesses usually
lose money, unless they are subsidized, or
competition forcibly suppressed, and New Zealand's
program has not deviated from this record.
Capitalism requires, among other things, novelty
and innovation to create products upon which to
profit and such innovation itself can be a product.
Government suppresses novelty and innovation.
[/quote]
Like hell they do.
[quote]Compare the results from the Soviet Union, with the results from the west.
[/quote]
Plenty of govt operations in the west, fool.
And govts have ENCOURAGED plenty of novelty and innovation in the
west, most obviously with regulations on environmental standards etc.
[quote]Similarly, compare the results from countries where the
government spends very little on science and technology,
such as Switzerland, with countries where the government
spends a great deal on science and technology, such as
Sweden.
[/quote]
And with scientific research in spades, fool.
[quote]Just as government involvement in venture capitalism
merely produces bureaucracy, swindles and waste,
[/quote]
More of your bare faced lies.
[quote]government funding of arts and science merely
produces grantsmanship and rigid orthodoxy.
[/quote]
Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that you have
never ever had a fucking clue about anything at all, ever.
[quote]The vast and necessarily rigid bureaucracy of government
necessarily and unavoidably has a destructive effect on innovation.
[/quote]
How odd that we have seen so much innovation in all sorts of areas
of medicine which arent economically viable for private industry alone.
[quote]Just as any art funded by the NEA is necessarily repetitious
rubbish, mindless aping what once was daring innovation but
is now mindless mechanical orthodoxy, the same applies
with government funded science and technology.
[/quote]
Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that you have
never ever had a fucking clue about anything at all, ever.
How odd that we have seen so much innovation in all sorts of areas
of medicine which arent economically viable for private industry alone.
[quote]Government funding of science and technology
fails as miserably as government venture capital.
[/quote]
Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that you have
never ever had a fucking clue about anything at all, ever.
How odd that we have seen so much innovation in all sorts of areas
of medicine which arent economically viable for private industry alone. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Rod Speed... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:20 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
James A. Donald wrote:
[quote]Private public partnerships are invariably on the terms that
the government takes the losses, and private firm the profits.
[/quote]
Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that you have
never ever had a fucking clue about anything at all, ever.
[quote]A private firm will not put money into the same thing as the
government does, except on more favorable terms, because
what the government puts money into, usually loses money.
[/quote]
Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that you have
never ever had a fucking clue about anything at all, ever. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| John Stafford... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:45 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
In article <hlh6f5htvfmd21jj1ejutds5n1gv00urjv at (no spam) 4ax.com>,
James A. Donald <jamesd at (no spam) echeque.com> wrote:
[quote]James A. Donald <jamesd at (no spam) echeque.com> wrote:
Government investments and businesses usually lose
money, unless they are subsidized, or competition
forcibly suppressed, and New Zealand's program has
not deviated from this record.
John Stafford
Capitalism requires, among other things, novelty and
innovation to create products upon which to profit and
such innovation itself can be a product.
Government suppresses novelty and innovation. Compare
the results from the Soviet Union, with the results from
the west.
[/quote]
Of course that is not completely true. Look to the Internet which was
developed with government funds and is now the infrastructure for
massive business. Also look to DoD research which yielded a great deal
of innovation for enterprise.
[quote]Similarly, compare the results from countries where the
government spends very little on science and technology,
such as Switzerland, with countries where the government
spends a great deal on science and technology, such as
Sweden.
[/quote]
Aw, the Swiss make awesome chocolate and pocket knives. :)
[quote][... snip some good stuff ...]
Just as any art funded by the NEA is necessarily
repetitious rubbish, mindless aping what once was daring
innovation but is now mindless mechanical orthodoxy,
the same applies with government funded science and
technology.
[/quote]
You might be interested in the government funded efforts classified as
Art and Technology. A lot of it is right off-the-wall brilliant, and it
is art!
[quote]Government funding of science and technology fails as
miserably as government venture capital.
[/quote]
Not entirely true. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| James A. Donald... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:06 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
James A. Donald <jamesd at (no spam) echeque.com> wrote
[quote]Government investments and businesses usually lose money,
unless they are subsidized, or competition forcibly suppressed,
[/quote]
"Rod Speed"
[quote]Plenty of them make money without either.
[/quote]
Such as? |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| James A. Donald... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:31 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 16:45:25 -0600, <nhoj at (no spam) droffats.net> wrote:
[quote]In article <hlh6f5htvfmd21jj1ejutds5n1gv00urjv at (no spam) 4ax.com>,
James A. Donald <jamesd at (no spam) echeque.com> wrote:
Government suppresses novelty and innovation. Compare
the results from the Soviet Union, with the results from
the west.
[/quote]
John Stafford
[quote]Of course that is not completely true. Look to the Internet which was
developed with government funds
[/quote]
When the government thrusts its tentacles into every orifice, you are
bound to see innovation getting screwed by government here and there
at some stage it is development but that is not evidence that that
that screwing was essential to promote development.
Had development remained governmental, the internet would have most
likely wound up looking like minitel. The internet became the
internet that we know when it was 99% carried on privately owned
wires.
Minitel is what you get when the government tentacles remain inserted
and continue to thrust away.
[quote]Just as any art funded by the NEA is necessarily
repetitious rubbish, mindless aping what once was daring
innovation but is now mindless mechanical orthodoxy,
the same applies with government funded science and
technology.
You might be interested in the government funded efforts classified as
Art and Technology. A lot of it is right off-the-wall brilliant, and it
is art!
[/quote]
I recommend Roissy's review of modern art
<http://roissy.wordpress.com/2009/06/10/the-state-of-art-in-america/> |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Rod Speed... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:35 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
James A. Donald <jamesd at (no spam) echeque.com> wrote
[quote]Rod Speed wrote
James A. Donald <jamesd at (no spam) echeque.com> wrote
Government investments and businesses usually lose money,
unless they are subsidized, or competition forcibly suppressed,
Plenty of them make money without either.
Such as?
[/quote]
Most obviously with the govt operations providing transport services etc.
Plenty of govt telcos make money without forcibly suppressing competition.
We've seen plenty of Giro type operations that make money too. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Les Cargill... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:35 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
Fred Weiss wrote:
[quote]On Nov 5, 12:18 am, Les Cargill <lcargil... at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote:
Dude, the Islamics invented banking. The Medici
copied it from them in defense...
The Greeks invented even more things. Now they come over here and open
pizzerias.
Which is at least an improvement over Muslims who now specialize in
stoning women and suicide bombers.
Fred Weiss
[/quote]
Qutbist != Muslim.
--
Les Cargill |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| James A. Donald... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:40 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 14:18:05 -0800 (PST), darwinist
[quote]This is not true, a lot of governments invest in funds
(managed funds, venture-investment funds, etc) on the
same terms as all the other investors in those same
funds.
[/quote]
During the recent financial crisis, when Iceland went
down, who were the investors that got burnt? Mostly it
was British goverment bodies, typically councils and the
rest were pensioners etc - in short the least competent
investors, most of which were either government or quasi
government, government investing in government.
Yes, governments frequently invest in private funds on
the same terms as the private suckers, but not, however,
on the same terms as the private smart money.
What happened is that on 2005 November, word started to
get around that the official AAA ratings were
politically correct lies that had no relation to actual
solvency, leading to the run on the repo market The
governments that were pressuring the ratings agencies to
lie, were the last to know that they were lying, and so
were the ones left holding the bag. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Michael Gordge... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:01 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
On Nov 6, 7:57 am, darwinist <darwin... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]Just to be clear, are you saying that
nobody engages in capitalism if their job or business uses things
built with tax dollars,..............
[/quote]
Just to be clear, you can drop any and all context of any discussion
and thereby you can get any person to contradict everything they have
ever said, its better known as the antics of leftist wankers being
fucking dishonest desperate and stupid.
Just to be clear again, capitalism is a political system built upon
the concept of free trade, human individuals being left free and alone
to be the sole benefactor and the sole decider of the results of their
energy.
Just to be clear yet again, when the state steals (tax) and then
spends other people's money on other people they are not engaging in
anything even remotely similar to capitalism.
[quote]It's true that not all roads are tax-funded but almost every trip
requires using some tax-funded roads.
[/quote]
shrug, its the commie retards who started the idea of state funded
roads and the cancer of their anti-human parasitism has of course
grown and spread into all sorts of other areas of life, and they (the
commie statist socialist retards) have pretty much removed and
continue to remove any and all choice in the matter. What is even
worse is, that when they (the commie retards) fuck it up (the current
mess) they blame capitalism and not their dopey interference in
capitalism, as Rand notes, "capitalism the unknown ideal", read the
book and answer your own questions.
MG |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Rod Speed... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:13 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
James A. Donald wrote
[quote]John Stafford <nhoj at (no spam) droffats.net> wrote
James A. Donald <jamesd at (no spam) echeque.com> wrote:
Government suppresses novelty and innovation. Compare the
results from the Soviet Union, with the results from the west.
Of course that is not completely true. Look to the
Internet which was developed with government funds
When the government thrusts its tentacles into every orifice,
[/quote]
Just another of your pathetic little drug crazed fantasys.
[quote]you are bound to see innovation getting screwed by
government here and there at some stage it is development
[/quote]
Didnt happen with the net, NASA or military hardware either, fool.
[quote]but that is not evidence that that that screwing
was essential to promote development.
[/quote]
The net wouldnt have happened without it, fuckwit.
Neither would great swathes of scientific research either.
[quote]Had development remained governmental, the internet
would have most likely wound up looking like minitel.
[/quote]
Easy to claim. Have fun actually substantiating that claim.
[quote]The internet became the internet that we know
when it was 99% carried on privately owned wires.
[/quote]
Irrelevant to the FACT that it wouldnt have happened at all without the govt getting involved.
Even the web wouldnt have happened without CERN either, fool.
[quote]Minitel is what you get when the government tentacles
remain inserted and continue to thrust away.
[/quote]
Another bare faced pig ignorant lie.
The net is what can happen when the govt gets involved.
Social security and medicare in spades, fool. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
All times are GMT - 5 Hours
The time now is Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:44 am
|
|