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| Bertel Lund Hansen... |
 Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:30 am |
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António Marques skrev:
[quote]- it should be easy to point out convincing "just-so" justifications for
said 'linguistic standards', but you're at a loss to do it, can't admit
that and resort to armchair psychology
[/quote]
It seems you haven't grasped Evan Kirshenbaum's point: that
eating habits and other habits vary quite a lot around the world.
You may have what you would call sensible reasons for doing
things in a certain way, but other people do them differently for
equally sensible reasons.
Likewise language varies around the world and within each
country, each town and even within smaller units. Children (and
adults) have to learn to navigate in different social circles and
to discern what is appropriate in a given context and what is
not. This ability is crucial.
[quote]It may come as a surprise to you, but not all teenagers are punks. If
you observe hard, maybe the difference will come to you. But what does
that matter to someone for whom life is an endless string of pointless
sophistry? Heck, life at HP must be dry.
[/quote]
Not everyone masters the skill.
--
Bertel, Denmark |
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| Bertel Lund Hansen... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:33 am |
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tony cooper skrev:
[quote]I'm still hung up on this "toddler" thing. Allowances should be made
for the table manners of a toddler if we are using my definition of
"toddler" as being at the just-walking stage. "Allowances" doesn't
mean anything goes, but the child who is constantly corrected will
start to constantly rebel.
[/quote]
Or worse: stop believing in himself.
Corrections need not be explicit by the way. A slight,
unconscious facial gesture can do the trick.
--
Bertel, Denmark |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:52 am |
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On Oct 28, 9:11 am, António Marques <m... at (no spam) sapo.pt> wrote:
[quote]Adam Funk wrote:
On 2009-10-27, António Marques wrote:
Adam Funk wrote:
On 2009-10-27, Nick wrote:
Adam Funk<a24... at (no spam) ducksburg.com> writes:
On 2009-10-26, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
Children _understand_ "irregular" inflections before they can
_produce_ them.
ISTR reading that children understand lots of linguistic phenomena
before they can produce them, including phonemes that they can't
articulate yet. I came across examples (in a book by David Crystal, I
think, but I'm not certain) in which a small child mispronounces a
word, then gets annoyed when the parent repeats the mispronunciation
and says "No, I said ____!" with the same mispronunciation.
"My fiss".
Yes, that's a good example (which I couldn't recall).
And what word would that be?
"fist" --- ISTR that /s/ for /st/ at the end of a word is a common
child's error in English.
Could that be an indication that such -st is really a single phoneme?-
[/quote]
Or that dropping a final stop isn't just a French bizarrerie? It's
normal in AAVE.
There's also the little problem of the "Sonority Hierarchy," which has
to throw up its hands in despair when it comes to [s]. |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:55 am |
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On Oct 28, 4:33 am, Bertel Lund Hansen <unosp... at (no spam) lundhansen.dk> wrote:
[quote]tony cooper skrev:
I'm still hung up on this "toddler" thing. Allowances should be made
for the table manners of a toddler if we are using my definition of
"toddler" as being at the just-walking stage. "Allowances" doesn't
mean anything goes, but the child who is constantly corrected will
start to constantly rebel.
Or worse: stop believing in himself.
Corrections need not be explicit by the way. A slight,
unconscious facial gesture can do the trick.
[/quote]
The very "unconsciousness" of it is key. |
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| Armond Perretta... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:06 am |
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António Marques wrote:
[quote]
But then I still don't understand either how Milo could buy eggs in
Malta for seven cents apiece and sell them at a profit in Pianosa for
five cents.
[/quote]
Simple. He made it up in volume.
Reread the above with emphasis on "he made it up."
--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://home.comcast.net/~kerrydeare |
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| António Marques... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:32 am |
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Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
[quote]António Marques skrev:
- it should be easy to point out convincing "just-so" justifications for
said 'linguistic standards', but you're at a loss to do it, can't admit
that and resort to armchair psychology
It seems you haven't grasped Evan Kirshenbaum's point: that
eating habits and other habits vary quite a lot around the world. (...)
[/quote]
Rather, it seems both of you didn't grasp that that is irrelevant to the
discussion at hand, or if anything comes to support what I said:
1. I made the point that there needn't be a single solution to an
everyday problem. That there are different solutions, even opposite
ones, doesn't mean only one can be logical and/or sensible.
2. This discussion isn't about mastering different registers. It's about
acquisition of a specific register.
3. The specific point being argued is that while there are reasons (I'd
even say post-hoc or not) for following specific social standards, the
following of the 'linguistic standards' that were being mentioned is
externally unjustifiable; the value of such 'standards' is in
themselves, not in anything else, real or imagined - there is simply no
reason for 'X and I' over 'Me and X' other than "we want it that way" -,
while the fact remains that there is no dearth of reasons for most
social standards, whether you like it or you don't [and then proceed to
say that all those reasons are bogus as if it mattered one bit].
4. It follows that no matter how similar social standards and those
'linguistic standards' may be, they're not the same. This exceedingly
arrogant attitude of mixing up everything without the least regard for
distinctions which are important for who actually deals with the matters
is something I just can't be bothered to tolerate anymore.
Now, if people were actually interested in discussing matters rather
than looking smart before an impressionable audience, the world would be
a better place. But some seem never to have left kindergarten. |
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| António Marques... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:10 am |
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Adam Funk wrote:
[quote]On 2009-10-27, tony cooper wrote:
The OP wasn't criticized. Most responses suggested that she be less
concerned about her son's poor grammar at this point in the child's
life, and that she should not be overly-critical of the boy.
I'm still hung up on this "toddler" thing. Allowances should be made
for the table manners of a toddler if we are using my definition of
"toddler" as being at the just-walking stage. "Allowances" doesn't
mean anything goes, but the child who is constantly corrected will
start to constantly rebel.
I agree. I was just opposing that bit of linguistic dogma ---
especially from someone who does claims to hate prescription but does
correct other people for misusing "beg the question".
[/quote]
Again, insistence on correct use of terminology is not 'prescription' in
the sense that is 'hated'. |
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| António Marques... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:11 am |
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Adam Funk wrote:
[quote]On 2009-10-27, António Marques wrote:
Adam Funk wrote:
On 2009-10-27, Nick wrote:
Adam Funk<a24061 at (no spam) ducksburg.com> writes:
On 2009-10-26, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
Children _understand_ "irregular" inflections before they can
_produce_ them.
ISTR reading that children understand lots of linguistic phenomena
before they can produce them, including phonemes that they can't
articulate yet. I came across examples (in a book by David Crystal, I
think, but I'm not certain) in which a small child mispronounces a
word, then gets annoyed when the parent repeats the mispronunciation
and says "No, I said ____!" with the same mispronunciation.
"My fiss".
Yes, that's a good example (which I couldn't recall).
And what word would that be?
"fist" --- ISTR that /s/ for /st/ at the end of a word is a common
child's error in English.
[/quote]
Could that be an indication that such -st is really a single phoneme? |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:51 am |
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On Oct 28, 11:52 am, Bertel Lund Hansen <unosp... at (no spam) lundhansen.dk>
wrote:
[quote]Peter T. Daniels skrev:
Or worse: stop believing in himself.
Corrections need not be explicit by the way. A slight,
unconscious facial gesture can do the trick.
The very "unconsciousness" of it is key.
Quite. That is why I previously wrote that parents must learn to
respect the choices of their children, especially when they
differ from their own.
(The censorship deleted a joke with children of their choice)
[/quote]
Censorship??? Denmark is a notoriously free country! |
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| Bertel Lund Hansen... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:52 am |
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Peter T. Daniels skrev:
[quote]Or worse: stop believing in himself.
Corrections need not be explicit by the way. A slight,
unconscious facial gesture can do the trick.
The very "unconsciousness" of it is key.
[/quote]
Quite. That is why I previously wrote that parents must learn to
respect the choices of their children, especially when they
differ from their own.
(The censorship deleted a joke with children of their choice)
--
Bertel, Denmark |
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| Bertel Lund Hansen... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:36 pm |
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Peter T. Daniels skrev:
[quote](The censorship deleted a joke with children of their choice)
Censorship??? Denmark is a notoriously free country!
[/quote]
Shhh ... not so loud!
--
Bertel, Denmark |
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| Richard Bollard... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:44 pm |
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On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 03:39:29 +0000 (UTC), Roland Hutchinson
<my.spamtrap at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
[quote]On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 18:25:44 -0700, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
"Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim at (no spam) verizon.net> writes:
On Oct 27, 3:43 pm, António Marques <m... at (no spam) sapo.pt> wrote:
I still don't understand how from
"When did your brother spot you?"
"When did your brother hit you?"
one is supposed to get that the preterite of 'hit' is not '*hitted'.
But then I still don't understand either how Milo could buy eggs in
Malta for seven cents apiece and sell them at a profit in Pianosa for
five cents.-
Currency manipulation? (No idea what you're talking about.)
You could probably figure out how to find out. It's been a while since
I read the book, but Googling refreshed my memory on the particulars.
There are two answers. The first answer is that he bought the eggs from
himself, and eggs cost sellers in Malta 4.25 cents, so he made three
quarters of a cent per egg. The second answer is that he actually
bought the eggs for one cent apiece in Sicily and transported them to
Malta, where he sold them to himself for seven cents, so he mad four
cents an egg (less transport costs).
Of course he didn't make the profit. The syndicate made the profit. And
everybody had a share.
[/quote]
She was only the stockbroker's daughter, but every man got his share.
--
Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia
To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:42 am |
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On Oct 29, 10:15 am, Adam Funk <a24... at (no spam) ducksburg.com> wrote:
[quote]On 2009-10-28, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
On Oct 28, 9:11 am, António Marques <m... at (no spam) sapo.pt> wrote:
Adam Funk wrote:
[children pronouncing "fist" as /fIs/ temporarily]
"fist" --- ISTR that /s/ for /st/ at the end of a word is a common
child's error in English.
Could that be an indication that such -st is really a single phoneme?-
Or that dropping a final stop isn't just a French bizarrerie? It's
normal in AAVE.
Are these omissions over time considered to be derived from issues
like that in child language acquisition?
[/quote]
Well, "over time" _every_ change has something to do with language
acquisition: it's simply the constant battle between ease of
articulation and difficulty of comprehension. The postulated LAD
(Language Acquisition Device) tries to establish the simplest grammar
that will account for all and only the well-formed input it receives.
Neurolinguistics _may_, however, have made some progress in recent
decades (though probably not much) in discovering what's actually
going on in infant brains.
[quote]There's also the little problem of the "Sonority Hierarchy," which has
to throw up its hands in despair when it comes to [s].
I don't know much about that.
[/quote]
You're not missing anything. |
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| Adam Funk... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:15 am |
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On 2009-10-28, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
[quote]On Oct 28, 9:11 am, António Marques <m... at (no spam) sapo.pt> wrote:
Adam Funk wrote:
[/quote]
[children pronouncing "fist" as /fIs/ temporarily]
[quote]"fist" --- ISTR that /s/ for /st/ at the end of a word is a common
child's error in English.
Could that be an indication that such -st is really a single phoneme?-
Or that dropping a final stop isn't just a French bizarrerie? It's
normal in AAVE.
[/quote]
Are these omissions over time considered to be derived from issues
like that in child language acquisition?
[quote]There's also the little problem of the "Sonority Hierarchy," which has
to throw up its hands in despair when it comes to [s].
[/quote]
I don't know much about that.
--
Bob just used 'canonical' in the canonical way. [Guy Steele] |
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| Adam Funk... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:19 am |
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On 2009-10-28, tony cooper wrote:
[quote]There was a time when Catholic women were expected to cover their
heads when attending Mass. It was not uncommon to see a woman who had
forgotten her hat or scarf with a Kleenex atop her head. It was a
particularly amusing sight when beehive hairdos were popular.
[/quote]
I may have mentioned this previously in AUE, but I know who went to a
Roman Catholic school, was very good in maths, and occasionally
muddled words; she once said her mother wore a "mantissa" to mass.
--
Oh, I am just a student, sir, and I only want to learn
But it's hard to read through the rising smoke
of the books that you want to burn
[Phil Ochs] |
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