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correcting my son's grammar?...

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Martha N....

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:33 am

Guest

(Thanks to those who answered my question about a toddler's
accent last summer.)

He has now picked up the local accent from his peers. But
unfortunately he's also picked up their bad grammar and says
things like "Me and Billy did this" -- how can I get him to
say "Billy and I did this" instead?

My husband and I both set a good example, and I've tried
"recasting" his sentences, but his peers' bad example seems
to keep overriding ours.

Any advice?

Jerry Friedman...

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:33 am

Guest

On Oct 26, 7:36 am, Christopher Culver
<crcul... at (no spam) christopherculver.com> wrote:
[quote]"Martha N." <mar... at (no spam) NOSPAM.invalid> writes:
....[/quote]

[quote]He has now picked up the local accent from his peers. But
unfortunately he's also picked up their bad grammar and says
things like "Me and Billy did this" -- how can I get him to
say "Billy and I did this" instead?
....[/quote]

[quote]If you want someone to talk in an intellectual-sounding fashion,
scolding him is going to have little positive effect. Make him
passionate for reading, though, and that would probably carry over
into his speech.
[/quote]
How do you manage that? You can improve the odds by encouraging him,
giving him every opportunity, and showing how you enjoy reading, but I
doubt there's a way to make him passionate for it.

--
Jerry Friedman

Peter T. Daniels...

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:33 am

Guest

On Oct 26, 12:02 pm, Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel... at (no spam) yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:
[quote]On 2009-10-26 14:58:41 +0100, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> said:

On Oct 26, 9:36 am, Christopher Culver
crcul... at (no spam) christopherculver.com> wrote:
"Martha N." <mar... at (no spam) NOSPAM.invalid> writes:
(Thanks to those who answered my question about a toddler's
accent last summer.)

He has now picked up the local accent from his peers. But
unfortunately he's also picked up their bad grammar and says
things like "Me and Billy did this" -- how can I get him to
say "Billy and I did this" instead?

My husband and I both set a good example, and I've tried
"recasting" his sentences, but his peers' bad example seems
to keep overriding ours.

Any advice?

Sure. Don't crosspost questions like this to sci.lang, because the
people hereabouts are likely to tell you that you shouldn't worry
about it, and that "Me and X did this" is not "bad grammar" as
such. Something tells me you probably won't like those answers.

If you want someone to talk in an intellectual-sounding fashion,
scolding him is going to have little positive effect. Make him
passionate for reading, though, and that would probably carry over
into his speech.

Though now that she _has_ cross-posted to sci.lang, maybe Brian Scott
will explain how he ended up "talking like a book," since that's
apparently the fate she wants for her son...

In the absence (so far) of a contribution from Brian Scott, maybe I can
comment on the development of my daughter -- now a fully trilingual
adult -- who grew up in France with one English-speaking and one
Spanish-speaking parent. I wouldn't say she spoke like a book when she
was ten, but she certainly spoke like an adult. For a long time her
only native model for English was me (not 100% of the time, but a large
part of it), and, not surprisingly, she used very few childish
expressions in English and a lot of words that one normally hears only
from adults. However, it only took a day or two of exposure to
English-speaking children for her to adopt a way of speaking more usual
for her age. Her development in Spanish was quite similar, whereas in
French she followed exactly the course you'd expect for someone mixing
all the time with French children.
[/quote]
It's _really_ hard to mess up native language acquisition.

Since she speaks three languages natively, supposedly she has more
than normal aptitude for learning (i.e. as L2) additional languages --
has she tried?

Peter T. Daniels...

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:33 am

Guest

On Oct 26, 11:34 am, James Hogg <Jas.H... at (no spam) gOUTmail.com> wrote:
[quote]Leslie Danks wrote:
James Hogg wrote:

Ruud Harmsen wrote:

Mon, 26 Oct 2009 14:33:42 +0100: "Martha N."
mar... at (no spam) NOSPAM.invalid>: in sci.lang:

[...]

He has now picked up the local accent from his peers. But
unfortunately he's also picked up their bad grammar and says
things like "Me and Billy did this" -- how can I get him to say
"Billy and I did this" instead?
You can't and don't need to. What he says is good English.
This could be qualified by saying that it is not regarded as good
formal English and is considered by many to be downright
unacceptable in written language. The boy will no doubt learn to
understand the significance of different registers. To show that
there is some hope for him, I can say that I was born and brought
up in a community where everybody said "Me and Billy". I learned
how and when to say and write "Billy and I" but I had to learn it
as a slightly foreign language. It still hurts to hear that the
natural language of my birthplace is "vile".

I apologise for making you suffer. If I had thought a bit longer
before pressing "send", I would have explained better what I meant: I
find "me and billy" to be vile in the wrong context. I have nothing
against it as part of a dialect different from formal English
dialect. When my (university educated) children use it while talking
to me, I do not like it -- though I have given up the Quixotic
struggle to bring them back on to the straight and narrow.

I can't help where I was born, any more than I can help the colour
of the skin I was born with, but the consolation is that it's
easier for a dialect speaker to learn Standard English than it is
to change your skin colour if you suffer discrimination on account
of it.

Some of my best friends speak a dialect different from mine.

I appreciate the clarification. As for the accusation that your attitude is
Neanderthal, I wonder what evidence Peter Daniels has that the
Neanderthals were excessive purists.
[/quote]
It was a reference to the date rather than to the (sub)species.

Peter T. Daniels...

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:33 am

Guest

On Oct 26, 9:36 am, Christopher Culver
<crcul... at (no spam) christopherculver.com> wrote:
[quote]"Martha N." <mar... at (no spam) NOSPAM.invalid> writes:
(Thanks to those who answered my question about a toddler's
accent last summer.)

He has now picked up the local accent from his peers. But
unfortunately he's also picked up their bad grammar and says
things like "Me and Billy did this" -- how can I get him to
say "Billy and I did this" instead?

My husband and I both set a good example, and I've tried
"recasting" his sentences, but his peers' bad example seems
to keep overriding ours.

Any advice?

Sure. Don't crosspost questions like this to sci.lang, because the
people hereabouts are likely to tell you that you shouldn't worry
about it, and that "Me and X did this" is not "bad grammar" as
such. Something tells me you probably won't like those answers.

If you want someone to talk in an intellectual-sounding fashion,
scolding him is going to have little positive effect. Make him
passionate for reading, though, and that would probably carry over
into his speech.
[/quote]
Though now that she _has_ cross-posted to sci.lang, maybe Brian Scott
will explain how he ended up "talking like a book," since that's
apparently the fate she wants for her son.

She'll probably need to lay in a good supply of Band-Aids and Bactine.
(Do they still make Bactine?)

Leslie Danks's attitude is Neanderthal at the latest.

Peter T. Daniels...

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:33 am

Guest

On Oct 26, 9:55 am, tony cooper <tony_cooper... at (no spam) earthlink.net> wrote:
[quote]On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 14:33:42 +0100, "Martha N."

mar... at (no spam) NOSPAM.invalid> wrote:
(Thanks to those who answered my question about a toddler's
accent last summer.)

He has now picked up the local accent from his peers. But
unfortunately he's also picked up their bad grammar and says
things like "Me and Billy did this" -- how can I get him to
say "Billy and I did this" instead?

My husband and I both set a good example, and I've tried
"recasting" his sentences, but his peers' bad example seems
to keep overriding ours.

Any advice?

What is your son's age?
[/quote]
Well, if he was a toddler last summer, ...

[quote]If he's a pre-teen, then it's far too early - in my opinion - to worry
about this. What you are trying to convey is unimportant to him
compared to fitting in with his playmates.

I agree that you should continue to correct him and guide him, but not
in a way that makes him feel that you think his friends are
unacceptably ignorant. Your criticisms of your son's friend's English
may be construed as criticism of the friends. Your son will just
become defensive of his friends.

If your son is still a "toddler", I think you are *really* premature
in your concern. Excessive criticism in areas where the child is not
yet old enough to have a concept of the rules involved can lead to
insecurities that will stay with him for years.
[/quote]
Well said.

Peter T. Daniels...

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:33 am

Guest

On Oct 26, 12:13 pm, Bertel Lund Hansen <unosp... at (no spam) lundhansen.dk>
wrote:
[quote]LEE Sau Dan skrev:

tony> We (parents or grandparents) don't criticize them for this.
tony> We may ask "Why did your brother hit you?" as an example of
tony> the correct form, though. The boys will figure it out.
How does that serve as an example?

How does it not?

"My brother spotted me" -> "When did your brother spot you?"
and
*"My brother hitted me" -> "When did your brother hit you?"
are parallel.

Yes.

How can a child or even an adult learning English as L2 figure out that
"hitted" is the wrong from from your example?

They can't. They need many other examples. Natural use of
language offers precisely that.

The method that Tnoy described, is the best way to teach small
children correct language. Whenever they say something
ungrammatical, repeat the central words using them correctly.
[/quote]
LSD is quite right. The correct preterite "hit" is not used in the
response, so it cannot serve as a model for replacing the regularized
form "hitted."

A response that _does_ incorporate the correction would be "Your
brother hit you?? When did he do that?"

Children _understand_ "irregular" inflections before they can
_produce_ them.

Jerry Friedman...

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:33 am

Guest

On Oct 26, 8:24 am, HVS <use... at (no spam) REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote:
[quote]On 26 Oct 2009, tony cooper wrote

On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 14:33:42 +0100, "Martha N."
mar... at (no spam) NOSPAM.invalid> wrote:

(Thanks to those who answered my question about a toddler's
accent last summer.)

He has now picked up the local accent from his peers. But
unfortunately he's also picked up their bad grammar and says
things like "Me and Billy did this" -- how can I get him to
say "Billy and I did this" instead?

My husband and I both set a good example, and I've tried
"recasting" his sentences, but his peers' bad example seems
to keep overriding ours.

Any advice?

What is your son's age?

If he's a pre-teen, then it's far too early - in my opinion - to
worry about this. What you are trying to convey is unimportant
to him compared to fitting in with his playmates.

I agree that you should continue to correct him and guide him,
but not in a way that makes him feel that you think his friends
are unacceptably ignorant. Your criticisms of your son's
friend's English may be construed as criticism of the friends.
Your son will just become defensive of his friends.

If your son is still a "toddler", I think you are *really*
premature in your concern. Excessive criticism in areas where
the child is not yet old enough to have a concept of the rules
involved can lead to insecurities that will stay with him for
years.

Couldn't agree more, Tony; I'd just add that another reason for
treading carefully at that age is that as they grow up, kids
usually become pretty adept at working out what register to use
with what group, and seamlessly switch between them.

"You and me should go there, Billy." "Hey, mum -- can Billy and I
go there?"
[/quote]
To get this to work, you have to have some way to let your son know
that you prefer "Billy and I". Criticism may not be the way, and
"excessive criticism" is by definition not the way.

And I suspect you have to be prepared for some emphasis on "Billy and
I" and a supposedly surreptitious glance at Billy to point out how
cruel you are.

--
Jerry Friedman

James Hogg...

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:36 am

Guest

Christopher Culver...

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:48 am

Guest

"Martha N." <martha at (no spam) NOSPAM.invalid> writes:
[quote](Thanks to those who answered my question about a toddler's
accent last summer.)

He has now picked up the local accent from his peers. But
unfortunately he's also picked up their bad grammar and says
things like "Me and Billy did this" -- how can I get him to
say "Billy and I did this" instead?

My husband and I both set a good example, and I've tried
"recasting" his sentences, but his peers' bad example seems
to keep overriding ours.

Any advice?
[/quote]
Sure. Don't crosspost questions like this to sci.lang, because the
people hereabouts are likely to tell you that you shouldn't worry
about it, and that "Me and X did this" is not "bad grammar" as
such. Something tells me you probably won't like those answers.

If you want someone to talk in an intellectual-sounding fashion,
scolding him is going to have little positive effect. Make him
passionate for reading, though, and that would probably carry over
into his speech.

Leslie Danks...

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:51 am

Guest

Martha N. wrote:

[quote](Thanks to those who answered my question about a toddler's
accent last summer.)

He has now picked up the local accent from his peers. But
unfortunately he's also picked up their bad grammar and says
things like "Me and Billy did this" -- how can I get him to
say "Billy and I did this" instead?

My husband and I both set a good example, and I've tried
"recasting" his sentences, but his peers' bad example seems
to keep overriding ours.
[/quote]
Children have their own agenda and, painful though it may be, acceptance
by their peers tends to be more important to them than parental approval.
The vile "me and Billy did this" is steadily gaining ground; by the time
your children are grown up it will probably be accepted by people
otherwise considered to be educated and literate. Your only chance of
resistance is to set your son among the right sort of peers -- if you can
find any...

--
Les (BrE)

Peter T. Daniels...

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:53 am

Guest

On Oct 26, 1:47 pm, tony cooper <tony_cooper... at (no spam) earthlink.net> wrote:
[quote]On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 00:05:12 +0800, LEE Sau Dan

dan... at (no spam) informatik.uni-freiburg.de> wrote:
"tony" == tony cooper <tony_cooper... at (no spam) earthlink.net> writes:

tony> I have two grandchildren well-past the toddler stage. One is
tony> four and the other one is just six. They both say things like
tony> "My brother hitted me". I'm not at all concerned about it.

tony> We (parents or grandparents) don't criticize them for this..
tony> We may ask "Why did your brother hit you?" as an example of
tony> the correct form, though. The boys will figure it out.

How does that serve as an example?

"My brother spotted me" -> "When did your brother spot you?"
and
*"My brother hitted me" -> "When did your brother hit you?"

are parallel.

How can a child or even an adult learning English as L2 figure out that
"hitted" is the wrong from from your example?

It doesn't teach the child the rules, but it does get across to the
child that "hit" is the word and "hitted" is not. Children pick this
kind of thing.
[/quote]
No, it doesn't, because no child would or could say "When did your
brother hitted you?", because any child who can make do-support
questions knows that do-support operates on the infinitive, not on the
preterite.

[quote]It wouldn't work on an adult learning English because the adult has an
advanced power of reasoning and needs to know "why". Children don't
care about "why" in this area.
[/quote]
No non-linguist native speaker knows the "why" (if "why" means 'do-
support operates with the infinitive not the preterite). No one,
including linguists, knows "why" do-support operates with the
infinitive not the preterite; that's simply the facts of the language.

Leslie Danks...

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:54 am

Guest

Martha N. wrote:

[quote](Thanks to those who answered my question about a toddler's
accent last summer.)

He has now picked up the local accent from his peers. But
unfortunately he's also picked up their bad grammar and says
things like "Me and Billy did this" -- how can I get him to
say "Billy and I did this" instead?

My husband and I both set a good example, and I've tried
"recasting" his sentences, but his peers' bad example seems
to keep overriding ours.

Any advice?
[/quote]
Children have their own agenda and, painful though it may be, acceptance
by their peers tends to be more important to them than parental approval.
The vile "me and Billy did this" is steadily gaining ground; by the time
your children are grown up it will probably be accepted by people
otherwise considered to be educated and literate. Your only chance of
resistance is to set your son among the right sort of peers -- if you can
find any...

--
Les (BrE)

tony cooper...

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:55 am

Guest

On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 14:33:42 +0100, "Martha N."
<martha at (no spam) NOSPAM.invalid> wrote:

[quote](Thanks to those who answered my question about a toddler's
accent last summer.)

He has now picked up the local accent from his peers. But
unfortunately he's also picked up their bad grammar and says
things like "Me and Billy did this" -- how can I get him to
say "Billy and I did this" instead?

My husband and I both set a good example, and I've tried
"recasting" his sentences, but his peers' bad example seems
to keep overriding ours.

Any advice?
[/quote]
What is your son's age?

If he's a pre-teen, then it's far too early - in my opinion - to worry
about this. What you are trying to convey is unimportant to him
compared to fitting in with his playmates.

I agree that you should continue to correct him and guide him, but not
in a way that makes him feel that you think his friends are
unacceptably ignorant. Your criticisms of your son's friend's English
may be construed as criticism of the friends. Your son will just
become defensive of his friends.

If your son is still a "toddler", I think you are *really* premature
in your concern. Excessive criticism in areas where the child is not
yet old enough to have a concept of the rules involved can lead to
insecurities that will stay with him for years.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Harlan Messinger...

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:09 am

Guest

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