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| Christian Weisgerber... |
 Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:51 am |
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LEE Sau Dan <danlee at (no spam) informatik.uni-freiburg.de> wrote:
[quote](I do know that "ill" should be pronounced as
IPA inverted "y", which should contrast with "ail".)
[/quote]
Presumably that was the case at some historical stage of the language,
but in modern French it's plain [j].
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy at (no spam) mips.inka.de |
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| Panu... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 4:39 am |
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On Oct 27, 3:55 pm, Ruud Harmsen <r... at (no spam) rudhar.eu> wrote:
[quote]Tue, 27 Oct 2009 13:11:47 +0100: "Ekkehard Dengler"
ED... at (no spam) t-online.de>: in sci.lang:
Ruud Harmsen wrote:
Tue, 27 Oct 2009 03:45:51 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger
f... at (no spam) bluemail.ch>: in sci.lang:
And all this
as a tentative explanation of what I mean with focusing
on that curve in the palate in speaking French: instead
of focusing on phonemes only one should ponder the
physiology of a given language,
Also known as "articulation basis", I think.
The usual term is "articulatory setting".
Aha, then articulatiebasis is probably only the Dutch word.
[/quote]
Actually, "artikulaatiobaasis" (the Finnish form of the same term) is
one of the linguistic terms I learnt from my mother. She taught me a
lot of things without either of us realising it at the time, she did.
Unfortunately, she is not there to be thanked any more.  |
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| Harlan Messinger... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 4:43 am |
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LEE Sau Dan wrote:
[quote]In Hanyu Pinyin, a <e> not followed by any other letters is [V], which
is back. When followed by <i>, as in <ei>, it is [e], which is front.
Only when in <-en> and <-eng> is the <e> central, basically an [ at (no spam) ].
As for <a>, it is always [a], except in <ian>,
[/quote]
.... and <yan> (I realize that it's the same thing, but just making it clear)
where it becomes [E].
[quote](In non-standard Mandarin, <ian> can be [iE~(n)] and can combine with a
succeeding <er> to form [iE~r]. But that's non-standard.)
[/quote] |
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| Harlan Messinger... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:00 am |
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Christian Weisgerber wrote:
[quote]LEE Sau Dan <danlee at (no spam) informatik.uni-freiburg.de> wrote:
BTW, hasn't it been shown that French {is/can be considered as} an
agglutinative language? How is that shown? With a phonemic spelling?
I think the term usually thrown around is "polysynthetic" and the
idea is that the clitic pronouns and negation particles packed
around the verb in extremely rigid order should in fact be considered
part of the verb, i.e. a sentence like
je ne le lui donne pas
really consists just of a single, very complex verb form:
jeneleluidonnepas
Or, to pick an example previously used in this group, that the
common use of dislocation in colloquial language like
Jean, il l'a achetée, la bagnole
lends itself to reanalysis as
Jean ilaachetée la bagnole
where the clitic pronouns have become verb prefixes that show
agreement with subject and object.
I'm under the impression the consensus is that French isn't quite
there yet, but it's the direction where the language is going.
An aspect of this is the inseparability of the parts, their not having a[/quote]
separate existence. In English we have "I don't see him" but it isn't
"idontseehim" in the same sense, because we can also have "I really
don't usually see either him or her". You can't do the equivalent in
French, except in front of the "pas". You can say "Je ne le vois pas"
(or "Jenelesvois pas") but an equivalent to the second English sentence
would be something like "À vrai dire, jenevois normalement ni lui ni
elle"; the object pronouns "le" and "la" can't be separated when we
introduce "normalement" and the "ni ... ni ..." construction, and we
need to substitute the emphatic pronouns "lui" and "elle" instead.
Perhaps you could use the fully agglutinated form as well--"À vrai dire,
jenelesvois normalement ni lui ni elle", with the redundant "les", but I
don't know whether this would be common, though it's possible if the "ni
lui ni elle" were added as an afterthought for emphasis. |
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| António Marques... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:57 am |
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Christopher Culver wrote:
[quote]LEE Sau Dan<danlee at (no spam) informatik.uni-freiburg.de> writes:
So, how do you read French? Do you subvocalize the French words? Do
you subvocalize them with Latin sounds? Or do you skip thinking about
the sounds at all?
I always had a very general idea of French pronunciation. Westerners
with any intellectual inclinations probably subconsciously know a lot
more French than they might expect. My dictionaries also have IPA, so
I learn pronunciations of every new word. However, that doesn't help
with inflected forms (like the ones I started this thread about), or
some liaisons.
[/quote]
That's very well, but doesn't answer LSD's for once interesting
question. Not that I think you have to subvocalise to read, but
sometimes you just do - and what did you do then with forms like parlent?
NB for all its word erosion, french is one of the few languages that
kept latin -t (in some circumstances); iinm both passe-t-il and
passent-ils are ['pas at (no spam) ,til], and the [t] really comes from the one in
passat/passant (corrections welcome). |
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| Ruud Harmsen... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:59 am |
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Tue, 27 Oct 2009 03:45:51 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger
<frgn at (no spam) bluemail.ch>: in sci.lang:
[quote]On Oct 27, 8:53 am, Ruud Harmsen <r... at (no spam) rudhar.eu> wrote:
You have a point there! That's what I call the "thin s". It can also
be heard with the uvular language.
Once again you don't understand me. I explicitely
don't speak of phonemes but of the physiological
aspect of language, this time of French.
[/quote]
So do I, and I did understand.
Confer Danish, of which lexander Arguelles in his video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8q7LVy8xHM says it has a kind of
resticted voice. I tried it (I never knew I could restrict my throat
that way, but I did) and he is right: it produces a Danish-style kind
of sound.
[quote]I had to
visit Paris and realize that I must focus my mind
on the curve of the palate above the middle teeth
- I can't explain it differently.
[/quote]
It's perfectly clear to me and you are right.
[quote]And all this
as a tentative explanation of what I mean with focusing
on that curve in the palate in speaking French: instead
of focusing on phonemes only one should ponder the
physiology of a given language,
[/quote]
Also known as "articulation basis", I think.
[quote]or come to the point
where one feels it intuitively.
[/quote]
It's also, or mainly, physiologic.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com |
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| Harlan Messinger... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:10 am |
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António Marques wrote:
[quote]
That's very well, but doesn't answer LSD's for once interesting
question. Not that I think you have to subvocalise to read, but
sometimes you just do - and what did you do then with forms like parlent?
NB for all its word erosion, french is one of the few languages that
kept latin -t (in some circumstances); iinm both passe-t-il and
passent-ils are ['pas at (no spam) ,til], and the [t] really comes from the one in
passat/passant (corrections welcome).
[/quote]
No corrections, that's correct. |
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| Ekkehard Dengler... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:11 am |
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Ruud Harmsen wrote:
[quote]Tue, 27 Oct 2009 03:45:51 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger
frgn at (no spam) bluemail.ch>: in sci.lang:
And all this
as a tentative explanation of what I mean with focusing
on that curve in the palate in speaking French: instead
of focusing on phonemes only one should ponder the
physiology of a given language,
Also known as "articulation basis", I think.
[/quote]
The usual term is "articulatory setting".
Regards,
Ekkehard |
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| Franz Gnaedinger... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:34 am |
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On Oct 27, 12:59 pm, Ruud Harmsen <r... at (no spam) rudhar.eu> wrote:
[quote]
Also known as "articulation basis", I think.
[/quote]
Ekkehard Dengler gives 'articulatory setting'.
May be so. Swiss is a rather guttural language,
and I had to find out on my own that I must make
a shift to the upper front of the palate in order
to pronounce an acceptable French. But is it
only an articulatory phenomenon? Make this
experiment when you go on your next walk.
Focus on a point in the middle under your
shoulders, and you will go upright, manly,
with a keen mind. Then shift your focus
to the solar plexus and you will automatically
bend forward, assuming a very different gait.
It is a matter of physiology and psychology
combined that finds an expression in the
articulation of your striding in one case
and speaking in the other case. Do we really
mean the same? And why have ne never been
taught about the proper articulation setting of
French? I was not the only one who had
a problem speaking that language, many others
have the same difficulty. So if a reader of this
should be forced to learn French he or she
may consider my advice: focus on the upper
front of your palate, and it may work for you
as it did for me, and still does forty years later. |
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| LEE Sau Dan... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:59 am |
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[quote]"Ruud" == Ruud Harmsen <rh at (no spam) rudhar.eu> writes:
And in much of northern France (at least Picardy and the N & NW
banlieue) /A~/ and /O~/ have collapsed together (i.e, "parlant"
and "parlons" are homophones).
[/quote]
Ruud> And so are the vowels in 'vin' and 'brun'? (Better examples
Ruud> welcomed).
"brin" vs. "brun".
Oh! I've been confused by this latter pair, because I don't hear the
difference but the dictionaries uses different IPA symbols for them.
(On the other hand, dictionaries use the same IPA symbol for the two
"a"s in "organisations", which I hear to be different!)
--
Lee Sau Dan §õ¦u´° ~{ at (no spam) nJX6X~}
E-mail: danlee at (no spam) informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee |
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| LEE Sau Dan... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:59 am |
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[quote]"ranjit" == ranjit mathews at (no spam) yahoo com <ranjit_mathews at (no spam) yahoo.com> writes:
In Hanyu Pinyin, a <e> not followed by any other letters is [V],
which is back.
[/quote]
ranjit> I didn't know this. Is it difficult for foreigners to
ranjit> discern (hear) the difference between an <e> ending and an
ranjit> <a> ending?
Do I qualify as a "foreigner" since Mandarin isn't my mother tongue?
To me it's trivial to discern them, because the [a]->/a/ is familiar and
the [V] is perceived (before learning Mandarin) as /W/. (Indeed, the
current Chief Executive of HKSAR, Donald Tsang, pronounces the [hV35] ©M
in the country's official full name as [hW35] (sounding like Cantonese
word ¹u) when he attempts to speak Mandarin -- his Mandarin
pronunciations are TERRIBLE!)
I think the sound different to an English ear, too.
[quote]When followed by <i>, as in <ei>, it is [e], which is front.
Only when in <-en> and <-eng> is the <e> central, basically an
[ at (no spam) ].
As for <a>, it is always [a], except in <ian>, where it becomes
[E].
[/quote]
ranjit> Isn't <Xuan> pronounced like [s;wEn]?
Yes and No. The *standard* pronunciation is [syan], but many people
pronounce it as [syEn]. It seems that the sound change [-ian] -> [-iEn]
is being carried over to [syan] as well in Mandarin, but the change is
still in progress.
ranjit> If so, <a> becomes [E] in this context too.
Yes, it is a change still in progress. :)
--
Lee Sau Dan §õ¦u´° ~{ at (no spam) nJX6X~}
E-mail: danlee at (no spam) informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee |
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| Ruud Harmsen... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:55 am |
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Tue, 27 Oct 2009 13:11:47 +0100: "Ekkehard Dengler"
<ED-RS at (no spam) t-online.de>: in sci.lang:
[quote]Ruud Harmsen wrote:
Tue, 27 Oct 2009 03:45:51 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger
frgn at (no spam) bluemail.ch>: in sci.lang:
And all this
as a tentative explanation of what I mean with focusing
on that curve in the palate in speaking French: instead
of focusing on phonemes only one should ponder the
physiology of a given language,
Also known as "articulation basis", I think.
The usual term is "articulatory setting".
[/quote]
Aha, then articulatiebasis is probably only the Dutch word.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com |
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| Christopher Culver... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:55 am |
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António Marques <m.ap at (no spam) sapo.pt> writes:
[quote]That's very well, but doesn't answer LSD's for once interesting
question. Not that I think you have to subvocalise to read, but
sometimes you just do - and what did you do then with forms like
parlent?
[/quote]
I was pronouncing the 3 pl. -ent ending as /a~/, and that is why the
native speaker I briefly talked to pointed out this phenomenon to me. |
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| Ruud Harmsen... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:03 am |
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Tue, 27 Oct 2009 13:11:47 +0100: "Ekkehard Dengler"
<ED-RS at (no spam) t-online.de>: in sci.lang:
[quote]Ruud Harmsen wrote:
Tue, 27 Oct 2009 03:45:51 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger
frgn at (no spam) bluemail.ch>: in sci.lang:
And all this
as a tentative explanation of what I mean with focusing
on that curve in the palate in speaking French: instead
of focusing on phonemes only one should ponder the
physiology of a given language,
Also known as "articulation basis", I think.
The usual term is "articulatory setting".
[/quote]
Also "base of articulation", per
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8q7LVy8xHM at 5:54.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com |
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| Ruud Harmsen... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:03 am |
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Tue, 27 Oct 2009 20:59:38 +0800: LEE Sau Dan
<danlee at (no spam) informatik.uni-freiburg.de>: in sci.lang:
[quote]"Ruud" == Ruud Harmsen <rh at (no spam) rudhar.eu> writes:
And in much of northern France (at least Picardy and the N & NW
banlieue) /A~/ and /O~/ have collapsed together (i.e, "parlant"
and "parlons" are homophones).
Ruud> And so are the vowels in 'vin' and 'brun'? (Better examples
Ruud> welcomed).
"brin" vs. "brun".
Oh! I've been confused by this latter pair, because I don't hear the
difference but the dictionaries uses different IPA symbols for them.
[/quote]
Brun is rounded and slightly backer that brin.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com |
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