 |
|
| Science Forum Index » Languages Forum » French pronunciation... |
|
Page 1 of 9 Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 Next |
|
| Author |
Message |
| Christopher Culver... |
 Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 2:21 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
I read French with great proficiency, and being a fan of French
literature I use the language quite often in this passive way. Once in
a while, I even write short texts which native speakers say are quite
decent.
However, I rarely get an opportunity to speak the language. I once
carried out a conversation in French with a Frenchman, who pointed out
some of my mistakes. He claimed that the 3rd sg. forms of verbs are
pronounced identically to the 3rd sg., so "ils parlent" is in speech
identical to "il parle". Is this really the case? (Unfortunately I had
only a few minutes of his time.)
If so, what to make of 3rd pl forms quite different from the sg., such
as "ils font"? Certainly that is pronounced as /il foN/ and not the
same as 3rd sg. "il fait"? Or what about future forms, are "il
parlera" and "il parleront" to be pronounced the same, or one with the
ending /a/ and the other as /oN/?
I hope these don't sound like ridiculously elementary questions. I've
tried searching for resources to consult on this, but it seems like
French learning materials tend to fall into audio only courses, or
descriptions of the written language only. What is a good reference on
the relationship between the written language and pronunciation? |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Franz Gnaedinger... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 2:21 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
On Oct 26, 9:09 am, Christopher Culver
<crcul... at (no spam) christopherculver.com> wrote:
[quote]I read French with great proficiency, and being a fan of French
literature I use the language quite often in this passive way. Once in
a while, I even write short texts which native speakers say are quite
decent.
However, I rarely get an opportunity to speak the language. I once
carried out a conversation in French with a Frenchman, who pointed out
some of my mistakes. He claimed that the 3rd sg. forms of verbs are
pronounced identically to the 3rd sg., so "ils parlent" is in speech
identical to "il parle". Is this really the case? (Unfortunately I had
only a few minutes of his time.)
If so, what to make of 3rd pl forms quite different from the sg., such
as "ils font"? Certainly that is pronounced as /il foN/ and not the
same as 3rd sg. "il fait"? Or what about future forms, are "il
parlera" and "il parleront" to be pronounced the same, or one with the
ending /a/ and the other as /oN/?
I hope these don't sound like ridiculously elementary questions. I've
tried searching for resources to consult on this, but it seems like
French learning materials tend to fall into audio only courses, or
descriptions of the written language only. What is a good reference on
the relationship between the written language and pronunciation?
[/quote]
Buy a couple of CDs by French singers you like, I mean really like,
and learn the songs by heart, reading the booklets. I learned English
mainly by listening to songs, I have a lot of English songlines in my
memory, and all kinds of English phrases. When I am uncertain,
quite often such a phrase pops up in my mind and clears the question.
Future dictionaries will be entirely electronical and offer spoken
versions
of words and phrases and sentences, but I guess it will take some
decades until the first of them are available, and the first audio
books
that offer bilingual texts plus the spoken versions ... |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Franz Gnaedinger... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 2:21 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
On 26 Okt., 10:36, LEE Sau Dan <dan... at (no spam) informatik.uni-freiburg.de>
wrote:
[quote]
However, will you expect them to give pronunciations of INFLECTED forms,
such as "parleront", "choisiraient", "prennent" "eu", "eûtes", "aie",
"aient", ...?
[/quote]
Yes, of course, all forms, all inflections,
and embedded in phrases and sentences,
plus etymology, and the ways of evading
misunderstandings, for example in the case
of 'il parle' and 'ils parlent' you can clarify the
singular by saying 'lui, il parle' (misunderstandings
occur in every language, and every language has
its own means of clarifying things), plus examples
of how the words are used, plus the Magdalenian
etymology, if available for a given word, pictures,
anything you can wish for, song lines that contain
the word, plays, just anything. There will be online
databases for each language, then pairs and groups
of languages. You don't have to open books of many
kilomgrams, you just do a query for what you need,
on the surface, or going to a deeper level, the first
level for free, and when you consult a deeper level
you may have to pay a modest fee. Students of
linguistics may think of these possibilities now,
for they might be involved in such a project later on.
Helmut Wollmersdorfer: thank you for the links
to those two audio-dictionaries. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Christian Weisgerber... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 2:21 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
LEE Sau Dan <danlee at (no spam) informatik.uni-freiburg.de> wrote:
[quote]BTW, don't you find it frustrating that even good reference books (such
as reputable dictionaries) NEVER give pronunciations for inflected
forms?
[/quote]
"Le Robert Micro", my first go-to dictionary, does give pronunciations
for the less obvious inflected forms...
[quote]For a long time, I have thought that "eu", the past participle
of "avoir", is pronounced with the vowel of "heure". It took me long to
discover that it is pronounced [y].
[/quote]
.... such as this one, in the conjugation appendix.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy at (no spam) mips.inka.de |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Harlan Messinger... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 2:48 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
Christopher Culver wrote:
[quote]I read French with great proficiency, and being a fan of French
literature I use the language quite often in this passive way. Once in
a while, I even write short texts which native speakers say are quite
decent.
However, I rarely get an opportunity to speak the language. I once
carried out a conversation in French with a Frenchman, who pointed out
some of my mistakes. He claimed that the 3rd sg. forms of verbs are
pronounced identically to the 3rd sg., so "ils parlent" is in speech
identical to "il parle". Is this really the case? (Unfortunately I had
only a few minutes of his time.)
[/quote]
It interests me how reading-bound your French education has been because
to me it seems like an impossibility to learn French as well as you say
you have and yet not to have learned this by the end of week 2! Be
careful, though: the rule is not that the third person plural is
pronounced like the third person singular, as this only holds in the
first conjugation: "parlent" sounds like "parle". It's that you treat
the -ent as though it were -e. So pronounce "finissent" as though it
were "finisse" (which *is* the third person singular in the subjunctive
but not in the indicative), not as though it were "finit", and
pronounced "rendent" as though it were "rende" (same comment), not as
though it were "rend".
[quote]If so, what to make of 3rd pl forms quite different from the sg., such
as "ils font"? Certainly that is pronounced as /il foN/ and not the
same as 3rd sg. "il fait"? Or what about future forms, are "il
parlera" and "il parleront" to be pronounced the same, or one with the
ending /a/ and the other as /oN/?
[/quote]
The special treatment applies only to the -ent suffix (and, by the way,
holds true when it is used in the imperfect, simple past, and
conditional as well as in the present, and in the subjunctive as well as
in the indicative). The future suffix -ont is pronounced /O~/; "vont" is
pronounced /vO~/. (These are nasalized vowels, denoted by /~/. /N/
corresponds to "ng" in English "sing".)
[quote]
I hope these don't sound like ridiculously elementary questions. I've
tried searching for resources to consult on this, but it seems like
French learning materials tend to fall into audio only courses, or
descriptions of the written language only. What is a good reference on
the relationship between the written language and pronunciation?
[/quote]
Sorry, I can't help you here. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Odysseus... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:25 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
In article <87ocnupof0.fsf at (no spam) christopherculver.com>,
Christopher Culver <crculver at (no spam) christopherculver.com> wrote:
[quote]I read French with great proficiency, and being a fan of French
literature I use the language quite often in this passive way. Once in
a while, I even write short texts which native speakers say are quite
decent.
However, I rarely get an opportunity to speak the language. I once
carried out a conversation in French with a Frenchman, who pointed out
some of my mistakes. He claimed that the 3rd sg. forms of verbs are
pronounced identically to the 3rd sg., so "ils parlent" is in speech
identical to "il parle". Is this really the case? (Unfortunately I had
only a few minutes of his time.)
[/quote]
Yes to the example (and other forms like it), but his claim appears to
have over-generalized: see below.
[quote]If so, what to make of 3rd pl forms quite different from the sg., such
as "ils font"? Certainly that is pronounced as /il foN/ and not the
same as 3rd sg. "il fait"? Or what about future forms, are "il
parlera" and "il parleront" to be pronounced the same, or one with the
ending /a/ and the other as /oN/?
[/quote]
Both these examples end in /oN/. It would be better to say merely that
3p.pl. _-ent_ endings are silent than that these plurals are pronouced
the same as the corresponding singulars. Note that in most verbs the
simple past also has 3p.pl. forms ending with the silent _-ent_, but
they're not pronounced the same as the 3p.sg.: _il parla_ but _ils
parlèrent_ (the latter rhyming with _faire_). The same is true of some
irregular present forms, e.g. _il peut_, _ils peuvent_ (r.w. _veuve_).
--
Odysseus |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Panu... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:25 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
On Oct 26, 10:42 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f... at (no spam) bluemail.ch> wrote:
[quote]I I I English I English my English I I
[/quote]
If you didn't notice, the original poster was asking about French.
My French is elementary, but IMHO parlent is indeed indistinguishable
from parle in modern standard French. The -ent suffix is pronounced in
poetry however, and I guess it is pronounced in some substandard
varieties. I seem to recall they pronounce it in some New World
variety (Cajun? Not sure). |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Helmut Wollmersdorfer... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:25 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
[quote]Future dictionaries will be entirely electronical and offer spoken
versions
of words and phrases and sentences, but I guess it will take some
decades until the first of them are available, and the first audio
books
that offer bilingual texts plus the spoken versions ...
[/quote]
Many online dictionaries support audio, e.g.
http://dict.cc (de <-> en, other European languages started)
http://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/chance and other wiktionaries
Helmut Wollmersdorfer |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| LEE Sau Dan... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:30 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
[quote]"Christopher" == Christopher Culver <crculver at (no spam) christopherculver.com> writes:
[/quote]
Christopher> I read French with great proficiency, and being a fan
Christopher> of French literature I use the language quite often in
Christopher> this passive way.
Me too.
Christopher> Once in a while, I even write short texts which native
Christopher> speakers say are quite decent.
I occasionally do that too.
Christopher> However, I rarely get an opportunity to speak the
Christopher> language. I once carried out a conversation in French
Christopher> with a Frenchman, who pointed out some of my
Christopher> mistakes. He claimed that the 3rd sg. forms of verbs
Christopher> are pronounced identically to the 3rd sg., so "ils
Christopher> parlent" is in speech identical to "il parle". Is this
Christopher> really the case? (Unfortunately I had only a few
Christopher> minutes of his time.)
Yes. I'm sure this is the case. I read that from French-teaching
books.
Also, for most nouns, the plural form is, despite the extra "-s"/"-x",
are pronounced identically to the singular form.
Christopher> If so, what to make of 3rd pl forms quite different
Christopher> from the sg., such as "ils font"?
That Frenchman is talking about regular verbs. For irregular verbs,
they're pronounced differently.
Christopher> Certainly that is pronounced as /il foN/
Never. It's not pronounced with a final [N]. Rather, the spelling "on"
represents the nasalized vowel [o~]. That's [il fo~].
Christopher> and not the same as 3rd sg. "il fait"?
No. That's an irregular verb.
Christopher> Or what about future forms, are "il parlera" and "il
Christopher> parleront"
"ilS parleront".
Christopher> to be pronounced the same, or one with the ending /a/
Christopher> and the other as /oN/?
No. If you have good observation, you should have noticed that the
future forms are regularly constructed by concatenating the future stem
with a suitably inflected form of the verb "avoir". Since "avoir" is an
irregular verb, the 3p sg and pl forms are different.
Christopher> I hope these don't sound like ridiculously elementary
Christopher> questions. I've tried searching for resources to
Christopher> consult on this, but it seems like French learning
Christopher> materials tend to fall into audio only courses, or
Christopher> descriptions of the written language only.
Try this online dictionary, which gives pronunciations in IPA.
http://www.wordreference.com/fren
BTW, don't you find it frustrating that even good reference books (such
as reputable dictionaries) NEVER give pronunciations for inflected
forms? For a long time, I have thought that "eu", the past participle
of "avoir", is pronounced with the vowel of "heure". It took me long to
discover that it is pronounced [y].
Christopher> What is a good reference on the relationship between
Christopher> the written language and pronunciation?
My knowledge of the pronunciations comes from the pieces of information
that I gathered from many teach-yourself books and web sites. So,
sorry, I cannot recommend a single book to you. In recent years, I
listen to French radio news from time to time. This helps if you're
already familiar with the language's grammar and vocabulary to begin
with. (But liaison is a big hurdle!)
--
Lee Sau Dan §õ¦u´° ~{ at (no spam) nJX6X~}
E-mail: danlee at (no spam) informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| LEE Sau Dan... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:36 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
[quote]"Franz" == Franz Gnaedinger <frgn at (no spam) bluemail.ch> writes:
[/quote]
Franz> Future dictionaries will be entirely electronical and offer
Franz> spoken versions of words and phrases and sentences,
Undoubtedly.
However, will you expect them to give pronunciations of INFLECTED forms,
such as "parleront", "choisiraient", "prennent" "eu", "eûtes", "aie",
"aient", ...?
Franz> but I guess it will take some decades until the first of them
Franz> are available, and the first audio books that offer bilingual
Franz> texts plus the spoken versions ...
--
Lee Sau Dan æŽå®ˆæ•¦ ~{ at (no spam) nJX6X~}
E-mail: danlee at (no spam) informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Christopher Culver... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:44 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
Harlan Messinger <hmessinger.removethis at (no spam) comcast.net> writes:
[quote]It interests me how reading-bound your French education has been
because to me it seems like an impossibility to learn French as well
as you say you have and yet not to have learned this by the end of
week 2!
[/quote]
I never formally studied French. I did my undergraduate studies in
Classics and found my familiarity with Latin, along with some
knowledge of Vulgar Latin and basic sound changes into the modern
Romance languages, allowed me to understand a great deal of
French. From there I picked up a decent knowledge of grammar and basic
vocabulary and expressions, but only from reading a few thousand pages
of literature with a dictionary, not by working through a textbook
(though I've recently been doing some composition exercises).
Thanks for your advice, it's been very helpful. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Ruud Harmsen... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 4:01 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
Mon, 26 Oct 2009 13:39:07 +0530: Christopher Culver
<crculver at (no spam) christopherculver.com>: in sci.lang:
[quote]However, I rarely get an opportunity to speak the language. I once
carried out a conversation in French with a Frenchman, who pointed out
some of my mistakes. He claimed that the 3rd sg. forms of verbs are
pronounced identically to the 3rd sg., so "ils parlent" is in speech
identical to "il parle". Is this really the case?
[/quote]
It is. (I only learned French from age 10 to 16, one or two hours a
week, not very motivated; but of this I am certain.)
[quote]If so, what to make of 3rd pl forms quite different from the sg., such
as "ils font"?
[/quote]
/ilf~o/.
[quote]Certainly that is pronounced as /il foN/
[/quote]
In the South of France, yes, but with a nasalised vowel elsewhere.
[quote]and not the same as 3rd sg. "il fait"?
[/quote]
Not the same, you are right.
[quote]Or what about future forms, are "il
parlera" and "il parleront" to be pronounced the same, or one with the
ending /a/ and the other as /oN/?
[/quote]
Different, as indicated by the spelling.
It's just that in the ending <-ent> the n and t are silent (mute).
Same in <parlaient>, which sounds the same as <parlais> and <parlait>
(except perhaps a difference in /e/ and /E/?, but that distinction is
waning; but <parlais> etc. are different from <parler>?).
[quote]I hope these don't sound like ridiculously elementary questions. I've
tried searching for resources to consult on this, but it seems like
French learning materials tend to fall into audio only courses, or
descriptions of the written language only. What is a good reference on
the relationship between the written language and pronunciation?
[/quote]
http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/french.htm
although due to its size, it cannot cover all situations.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.eu |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Ruud Harmsen... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 4:06 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
Mon, 26 Oct 2009 17:36:46 +0800: LEE Sau Dan
<danlee at (no spam) informatik.uni-freiburg.de>: in sci.lang:
[quote]"Franz" == Franz Gnaedinger <frgn at (no spam) bluemail.ch> writes:
Franz> Future dictionaries will be entirely electronical and offer
Franz> spoken versions of words and phrases and sentences,
Undoubtedly.
However, will you expect them to give pronunciations of INFLECTED forms,
such as "parleront", "choisiraient", "prennent" "eu", "eûtes", "aie",
"aient", ...?
[/quote]
Probably not.
I think they are: /parl at (no spam) ro~/, /SwAzirE/, /prEn( at (no spam) )/, /y/ (exception to
the rule!), /yt( at (no spam) )/, /E/ (or /aj/?).
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.eu |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Ruud Harmsen... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 4:10 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
Mon, 26 Oct 2009 17:30:39 +0800: LEE Sau Dan
<danlee at (no spam) informatik.uni-freiburg.de>: in sci.lang:
[quote]
Christopher> Or what about future forms, are "il parlera" and "il
Christopher> parleront"
"ilS parleront".
[/quote]
Yes. The s is written, but not pronounced, however. But that's what
you probably meant too.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.eu |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Ruud Harmsen... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 4:23 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
Mon, 26 Oct 2009 17:30:39 +0800: LEE Sau Dan
<danlee at (no spam) informatik.uni-freiburg.de>: in sci.lang:
[quote]Christopher> to be pronounced the same, or one with the ending /a/
Christopher> and the other as /oN/?
No. If you have good observation, you should have noticed that the
future forms are regularly constructed by concatenating the future stem
with a suitably inflected form of the verb "avoir". Since "avoir" is an
irregular verb, the 3p sg and pl forms are different.
[/quote]
Yes. This is also true of Spanish (haber), Portuguese (haver) and (I
seem to remember) Italian (ho - parlerò). So perhaps Vulgar Latin
already had this?
[quote]BTW, don't you find it frustrating that even good reference books (such
as reputable dictionaries) NEVER give pronunciations for inflected
forms?
[/quote]
For Portuguese, yes. I have one book in Dutch that does give examples
and some rules, but even then it isn't complete. I have probably
gathered all the needed data from different sources by now, but
sometimes I'm still in doubt. (The problem is Portuguese /E/ vs. /e/
and /O vs. /o/, very often not indicated by spelling .)
[quote]For a long time, I have thought that "eu", the past participle
of "avoir", is pronounced with the vowel of "heure". It took me long to
discover that it is pronounced [y].
[/quote]
Yes, that's a strange exception. Also difficult: Citroën, pronounced
as if <Citro-enne>, not with a nasal vowel. (Learnt that only about a
year ago).
Some endings <en> have /E~/ and some have /A~/. Example: combien,
comment, /ko~bjE~/, /kOmA~/.
Also strange August = Août, pronounced /u/ (or was it /ut/? or does it
depend on context?)
<dix> and <six> end in /is/ in isolation, but /i/ in context, because
a consonant (and /iz/ before a vowel of mute <h>).
In "Soît" (never mind, so be it), the t is NOT mute. Learnt that only
about a year ago. The word entered Dutch as a loan, but with the wrong
pronunciation in the Netherlands. In Flanders they do it right,
because their French is traditionally much better.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.eu |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
All times are GMT - 5 Hours
The time now is Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:51 pm
|
|