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| Frogwatch... |
 Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:52 am |
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Guest
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"Pits" found on the moon:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18030-found-first-skylight-on-the-moon.html
Opening to what seems to be a lunar lava tube has been found. it
seems to be a pit over 80 m deep.
Considering that such lunar lava tubes are probably the key to
establishing a permanent lunar base, exploration of this should be a
high priority.
How to do this on the cheap?
Back in the early Gemini program, there were plans to use Gemini as a
way to get men on the moon as early as 1966 using a single man open
cockpit lander.
http://www.astronautix.com/articles/bygemoon.htm
A variation could be resurrected using the Falcon Dragon capsule or
the new NASA capsule launched atop either the Atlas V or the new large
SpaceX launcher.
This would be a very high risk mission with the person going from
earth to the moon and landing on the moon by himself and then
descending this deep hole by himself. The person would have to be
happy being alone for long times and comfortable descending deep pits.
PICK ME, PICK ME, I VOLUNTEER. Single handed sailor, experienced
vertical caver. This would be the ultimate caving trip, after doing
this, nothing else would ever be necessary. If things fail and death
is likely, well, just give me a small cylinder of CO. This could be
the ultimate contribution to humanity. |
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| Eric Chomko... |
| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:36 am |
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Guest
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On Oct 23, 9:52 am, Frogwatch <ohara... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote:
[quote]"Pits" found on the moon:http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18030-found-first-skylight-on-t...
Opening to what seems to be a lunar lava tube has been found. it
seems to be a pit over 80 m deep.
Considering that such lunar lava tubes are probably the key to
establishing a permanent lunar base, exploration of this should be a
high priority.
How to do this on the cheap?
Back in the early Gemini program, there were plans to use Gemini as a
way to get men on the moon as early as 1966 using a single man open
cockpit lander.http://www.astronautix.com/articles/bygemoon.htm
A variation could be resurrected using the Falcon Dragon capsule or
the new NASA capsule launched atop either the Atlas V or the new large
SpaceX launcher.
This would be a very high risk mission with the person going from
earth to the moon and landing on the moon by himself and then
descending this deep hole by himself. The person would have to be
happy being alone for long times and comfortable descending deep pits.
PICK ME, PICK ME, I VOLUNTEER. Single handed sailor, experienced
vertical caver. This would be the ultimate caving trip, after doing
this, nothing else would ever be necessary. If things fail and death
is likely, well, just give me a small cylinder of CO. This could be
the ultimate contribution to humanity.
[/quote]
Clearly, two or more people have a better chance of helping themselves
than can a single person. In fact aren't hikers and cavers encouraged
to use the buddy system when it comes to their trips? Doesn't the risk
of trouble increase drastically when people hike or cave alone?
Something tells me that you need to be limited to the simulators until
you learn about dealing with risk. :)
Eric |
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| Frogwatch... |
| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:54 am |
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Guest
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On Oct 23, 2:36 pm, Eric Chomko <pne.cho... at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote:
[quote]On Oct 23, 9:52 am, Frogwatch <ohara... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote:
"Pits" found on the moon:http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18030-found-first-skylight-on-t...
Opening to what seems to be a lunar lava tube has been found. it
seems to be a pit over 80 m deep.
Considering that such lunar lava tubes are probably the key to
establishing a permanent lunar base, exploration of this should be a
high priority.
How to do this on the cheap?
Back in the early Gemini program, there were plans to use Gemini as a
way to get men on the moon as early as 1966 using a single man open
cockpit lander.http://www.astronautix.com/articles/bygemoon.htm
A variation could be resurrected using the Falcon Dragon capsule or
the new NASA capsule launched atop either the Atlas V or the new large
SpaceX launcher.
This would be a very high risk mission with the person going from
earth to the moon and landing on the moon by himself and then
descending this deep hole by himself. The person would have to be
happy being alone for long times and comfortable descending deep pits.
PICK ME, PICK ME, I VOLUNTEER. Single handed sailor, experienced
vertical caver. This would be the ultimate caving trip, after doing
this, nothing else would ever be necessary. If things fail and death
is likely, well, just give me a small cylinder of CO. This could be
the ultimate contribution to humanity.
Clearly, two or more people have a better chance of helping themselves
than can a single person. In fact aren't hikers and cavers encouraged
to use the buddy system when it comes to their trips? Doesn't the risk
of trouble increase drastically when people hike or cave alone?
Something tells me that you need to be limited to the simulators until
you learn about dealing with risk. :)
Eric
[/quote]
In this case, it is assumed to be very high risk. In ordinary
circumstances, I do not go caving with less than 3 people. This is
far from ordinary and I would be willing to take that risk. |
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| hallerb at (no spam) aol.com... |
| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 1:22 pm |
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Guest
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On Oct 23, 4:54�pm, Frogwatch <ohara... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote:
[quote]On Oct 23, 2:36�pm, Eric Chomko <pne.cho... at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote:
On Oct 23, 9:52�am, Frogwatch <ohara... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote:
"Pits" found on the moon:http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18030-found-first-skylight-on-t...
Opening to what seems to be a lunar lava tube has been found. �it
seems to be a pit over 80 m deep.
Considering that such lunar lava tubes are probably the key to
establishing a permanent lunar base, exploration of this should be a
high priority.
How to do this on the cheap?
Back in the early Gemini program, there were plans to use Gemini as a
way to get men on the moon as early as 1966 using a single man open
cockpit lander.http://www.astronautix.com/articles/bygemoon.htm
� A variation could be resurrected using the Falcon Dragon capsule or
the new NASA capsule launched atop either the Atlas V or the new large
SpaceX launcher.
This would be a very high risk mission with the person going from
earth to the moon and landing on the moon by himself and then
descending this deep hole by himself. �The person would have to be
happy being alone for long times and comfortable descending deep pits..
PICK ME, PICK ME, I VOLUNTEER. �Single handed sailor, experienced
vertical caver. �This would be the ultimate caving trip, after doing
this, nothing else would ever be necessary. �If things fail and death
is likely, well, just give me a small cylinder of CO. �This could be
the ultimate contribution to humanity.
Clearly, two or more people have a better chance of helping themselves
than can a single person. In fact aren't hikers and cavers encouraged
to use the buddy system when it comes to their trips? Doesn't the risk
of trouble increase drastically when people hike or cave alone?
Something tells me that you need to be limited to the simulators until
you learn about dealing with risk. :)
Eric
In this case, it is assumed to be very high risk. �In ordinary
circumstances, I do not go caving with less than 3 people. �This is
far from ordinary and I would be willing to take that risk.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
[/quote]
time for AI artifical intelliogence explorers, first on moon the to
mars and beyond.
costs far less, little life support type items needed.
advances artifical intelligence and robotics a lot
no one dies when lava tube collapses |
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| hallerb at (no spam) aol.com... |
| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:48 pm |
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Guest
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On Oct 23, 9:48�pm, Fred J. McCall <fjmcc... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]"hall... at (no spam) aol.com" <hall... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote:
:
:time for AI artifical intelliogence explorers, first on moon the to
:mars and beyond.
:
:costs far less, little life support type items needed.
:
:advances artifical intelligence and robotics a lot
:
:no one dies when lava tube collapses
:
And all you need is unobtainium and a century of development.
--
"Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is
�only stupid."
� � � � � � � � � � � � � � -- Heinrich Heine
[/quote]
not at all. look how far robotics have advanced in the last 20 years.
invest nasas manned shuttle budget for 5 years 25 billion and see what
occurs.
this can have other uses too like robotic AI soldiers |
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| Fred J. McCall... |
| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:48 pm |
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Guest
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"hallerb at (no spam) aol.com" <hallerb at (no spam) aol.com> wrote:
:
:time for AI artifical intelliogence explorers, first on moon the to
:mars and beyond.
:
:costs far less, little life support type items needed.
:
:advances artifical intelligence and robotics a lot
:
:no one dies when lava tube collapses
:
And all you need is unobtainium and a century of development.
--
"Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is
only stupid."
-- Heinrich Heine |
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| Greg D. Moore (Strider)... |
| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:57 pm |
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Guest
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Top posting since Googlegroups fubars things so I can't inline post.
Yes, normally, 3 people is good. But the reality is, we all take our
chances.
I've been known to ascend out of a cave w/o my partners anywhere near by.
It's a risk, but I'm also aware of it. Everyone has different levels of
risk.
"Frogwatch" <ohara5.0 at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:8edcdafb-a906-464d-b41b-6ef42f1c1fbe at (no spam) k26g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 23, 2:36 pm, Eric Chomko <pne.cho... at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote:
[quote]
Clearly, two or more people have a better chance of helping themselves
than can a single person. In fact aren't hikers and cavers encouraged
to use the buddy system when it comes to their trips? Doesn't the risk
of trouble increase drastically when people hike or cave alone?
Eric
[/quote]
In this case, it is assumed to be very high risk. In ordinary
circumstances, I do not go caving with less than 3 people. This is
far from ordinary and I would be willing to take that risk.
--
Greg Moore
Ask me about lily, an RPI based CMC. |
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| Greg D. Moore (Strider)... |
| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:00 pm |
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Guest
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I have seen how far robotics have advanced.
I still can't see an autonomous robot being useful in a lunar tube.
Hell, if we had them here on Earth they'd be used. We don't and they
aren't.
<hallerb at (no spam) aol.com> wrote in message
news:681b04e9-3a90-4477-afac-b86d0b82aeec at (no spam) l34g2000vba.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 23, 9:48?pm, Fred J. McCall <fjmcc... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]"hall... at (no spam) aol.com" <hall... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote:
:
:time for AI artifical intelliogence explorers, first on moon the to
:mars and beyond.
:
:costs far less, little life support type items needed.
:
:advances artifical intelligence and robotics a lot
:
:no one dies when lava tube collapses
:
And all you need is unobtainium and a century of development.
--
"Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is
?only stupid."
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? -- Heinrich Heine
[/quote]
not at all. look how far robotics have advanced in the last 20 years.
invest nasas manned shuttle budget for 5 years 25 billion and see what
occurs.
this can have other uses too like robotic AI soldiers |
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| Greg D. Moore (Strider)... |
| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:02 pm |
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Guest
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"Frogwatch" <ohara5.0 at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:328346a6-0973-4c89-9014-e821e31d1c6c at (no spam) l31g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
[quote]"Pits" found on the moon:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18030-found-first-skylight-on-the-moon.html
Opening to what seems to be a lunar lava tube has been found. it
seems to be a pit over 80 m deep.
Considering that such lunar lava tubes are probably the key to
establishing a permanent lunar base, exploration of this should be a
high priority.
How to do this on the cheap?
Back in the early Gemini program, there were plans to use Gemini as a
way to get men on the moon as early as 1966 using a single man open
cockpit lander.
http://www.astronautix.com/articles/bygemoon.htm
A variation could be resurrected using the Falcon Dragon capsule or
the new NASA capsule launched atop either the Atlas V or the new large
SpaceX launcher.
This would be a very high risk mission with the person going from
earth to the moon and landing on the moon by himself and then
descending this deep hole by himself. The person would have to be
happy being alone for long times and comfortable descending deep pits.
PICK ME, PICK ME, I VOLUNTEER. Single handed sailor, experienced
vertical caver. This would be the ultimate caving trip, after doing
this, nothing else would ever be necessary. If things fail and death
is likely, well, just give me a small cylinder of CO. This could be
the ultimate contribution to humanity.
[/quote]
Eh, you don't need CO, just bleed off your CO2 at a constant rate, you'll
never notice the difference.
This got me thinking about the vertical stuff though.
On one hand, you've got the same mass, but 1/6 the weight to move up the
rope. That should make things easier.
But, you're now in a bulky space suit.
So Frogwatch, what's your vertical system of choice for a lunar cave?
I'm think Frog or Mitchell. I think trying to get in and out of ropewalker
would not be trivial while wearing a space suit.
Hmm, we should cross-post this on the NSS board.
--
Greg Moore
Ask me about lily, an RPI based CMC. |
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| Pat Flannery... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 2:27 am |
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Guest
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Frog watch wrote:
[quote]"Pits" found on the moon:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18030-found-first-skylight-on-the-moon.html
Opening to what seems to be a lunar lava tube has been found. it
seems to be a pit over 80 m deep.
Considering that such lunar lava tubes are probably the key to
establishing a permanent lunar base, exploration of this should be a
high priority.
How to do this on the cheap?
Back in the early Gemini program, there were plans to use Gemini as a
way to get men on the moon as early as 1966 using a single man open
cockpit lander.
http://www.astronautix.com/articles/bygemoon.htm
[/quote]
Or you could just send a automated rover a lot more cheaply and quickly.
Pat |
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| Frogwatch... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 6:08 am |
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Guest
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On Oct 24, 10:55 am, Fred J. McCall <fjmcc... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]"hall... at (no spam) aol.com" <hall... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote:
:On Oct 23, 9:48?pm, Fred J. McCall <fjmcc... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote::> "hall.... at (no spam) aol.com" <hall... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote:
:
:> :
:> :time for AI artifical intelliogence explorers, first on moon the to
:> :mars and beyond.
:> :
:> :costs far less, little life support type items needed.
:> :
:> :advances artifical intelligence and robotics a lot
:> :
:> :no one dies when lava tube collapses
:> :
:
:> And all you need is unobtainium and a century of development.
:
:
:not at all. look how far robotics have advanced in the last 20 years.
:
:invest nasas manned shuttle budget for 5 years 25 billion and see what
:occurs.
:
The Japanese tried this. Got them nowhere.
:
:this can have other uses too like robotic AI soldiers
:
Yeah, sure. All you need is unobtainium and a century of development.
--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson
[/quote]
Greg:
Probably a Frog system although I have never used mechanical
ascenders, I used prusiks exclusively even for the deep stuff, simple
is best for me. Prusiks would be difficult with gloves particulalry
with a spacesuit that doesnt bend much. This is also a strike against
the Frog system. Maybe a modified ropewalker that doesnt require deep
steps would be best.
Was thinking about the descent. I am not familiar with modern racks,
mine is an old Bluewater with 5 bars requiring control of the bars by
hand. Maybe a spool system with a hand control would work best foir
the descent.
Use 9 mm rope, probably for weight but makes me squirm thinking of it.
I once saw some PMI rope with phone conductor in it, this could be
used to keep communication.
I'd worry about the rope burying itself in the lunar dust,
particularly at any lip so I'd want a stiff pad to spread its weight.
How to rig? You'd hope for some well placed rocks but maybe they
would not be around so maybe a sort of snow anchor to hold in the
lunar dust. Perhaps a variation on a Danforth Anchor used on boats. |
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| Frogwatch... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 6:27 am |
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Guest
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On Oct 24, 12:08 pm, Frogwatch <dboh... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote:
[quote]On Oct 24, 10:55 am, Fred J. McCall <fjmcc... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
"hall... at (no spam) aol.com" <hall... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote:
:On Oct 23, 9:48?pm, Fred J. McCall <fjmcc... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote::> "hall.... at (no spam) aol.com" <hall... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote:
:
:> :
:> :time for AI artifical intelliogence explorers, first on moon the to
:> :mars and beyond.
:> :
:> :costs far less, little life support type items needed.
:> :
:> :advances artifical intelligence and robotics a lot
:> :
:> :no one dies when lava tube collapses
:> :
:
:> And all you need is unobtainium and a century of development.
:
:
:not at all. look how far robotics have advanced in the last 20 years.
:
:invest nasas manned shuttle budget for 5 years 25 billion and see what
:occurs.
:
The Japanese tried this. Got them nowhere.
:
:this can have other uses too like robotic AI soldiers
:
Yeah, sure. All you need is unobtainium and a century of development..
--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson
Greg:
Probably a Frog system although I have never used mechanical
ascenders, I used prusiks exclusively even for the deep stuff, simple
is best for me. Prusiks would be difficult with gloves particulalry
with a spacesuit that doesnt bend much. This is also a strike against
the Frog system. Maybe a modified ropewalker that doesnt require deep
steps would be best.
Was thinking about the descent. I am not familiar with modern racks,
mine is an old Bluewater with 5 bars requiring control of the bars by
hand. Maybe a spool system with a hand control would work best foir
the descent.
Use 9 mm rope, probably for weight but makes me squirm thinking of it.
I once saw some PMI rope with phone conductor in it, this could be
used to keep communication.
I'd worry about the rope burying itself in the lunar dust,
particularly at any lip so I'd want a stiff pad to spread its weight.
How to rig? You'd hope for some well placed rocks but maybe they
would not be around so maybe a sort of snow anchor to hold in the
lunar dust. Perhaps a variation on a Danforth Anchor used on boats.
[/quote]
On second thought, I do not like the Frog system for this. One thing
I have always liked about my old prusik system is that I can get over
lips easily that are trouble for Frog and systems where the ascenders
are attached at the feet. IF your legs are free (as in a prusik) you
can put a foot under the lip and push out to get your top ascender
over it. |
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| Fred J. McCall... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 8:55 am |
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Guest
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"hallerb at (no spam) aol.com" <hallerb at (no spam) aol.com> wrote:
:On Oct 23, 9:48?pm, Fred J. McCall <fjmcc... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
:> "hall... at (no spam) aol.com" <hall... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote:
:>
:> :
:> :time for AI artifical intelliogence explorers, first on moon the to
:> :mars and beyond.
:> :
:> :costs far less, little life support type items needed.
:> :
:> :advances artifical intelligence and robotics a lot
:> :
:> :no one dies when lava tube collapses
:> :
:>
:> And all you need is unobtainium and a century of development.
:>
:
:not at all. look how far robotics have advanced in the last 20 years.
:
:invest nasas manned shuttle budget for 5 years 25 billion and see what
:occurs.
:
The Japanese tried this. Got them nowhere.
:
:this can have other uses too like robotic AI soldiers
:
Yeah, sure. All you need is unobtainium and a century of development.
--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson |
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| Pat Flannery... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:32 pm |
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Guest
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Frogwatch wrote:
[quote]I'd worry about the rope burying itself in the lunar dust,
[/quote]
The last time any climber on the Moon got his rope buried in the lunar
dust was in the 1959-60 TV series "Men Into Space".
Lunar dust isn't all that deep, and firmly enough packed that your rope
will just slide over the surface of it like it would on Earth soil.
Once you are inside the lava tube proper, you won't have to worry about
any lunar dust at all, as it's generated my micrometeorite impacts on
the surface rock...if you can't see the lunar sky it means that the
micrometeorites can't reach the inside of the tunnel, and its interior
should be very smooth and made of fused rock, so that getting around in
it is going to be about as difficult as walking through a huge concrete
drainage tunnel.
Pat |
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| Frogwatch... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:37 pm |
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Guest
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On Oct 24, 2:32 pm, Pat Flannery <flan... at (no spam) daktel.com> wrote:
[quote]Frogwatch wrote:
I'd worry about the rope burying itself in the lunar dust,
The last time any climber on the Moon got his rope buried in the lunar
dust was in the 1959-60 TV series "Men Into Space".
Lunar dust isn't all that deep, and firmly enough packed that your rope
will just slide over the surface of it like it would on Earth soil.
Once you are inside the lava tube proper, you won't have to worry about
any lunar dust at all, as it's generated my micrometeorite impacts on
the surface rock...if you can't see the lunar sky it means that the
micrometeorites can't reach the inside of the tunnel, and its interior
should be very smooth and made of fused rock, so that getting around in
it is going to be about as difficult as walking through a huge concrete
drainage tunnel.
Pat
[/quote]
Dust could be expected to flow downhill toward the lip of the pit
making a deep layer right at the drop. Besides, you do not know what
sharp rocks are right under the stuff to cut your rope. On earth,
more than one caver has been frustrated getting out of pits by the
rope burying itself in soft stuff at the lip. This could be fatal in
this case.
I'd also expect to see rubble ("breakdown" in caving terms) below the
pit opening. Earthly lava tubes are often smooth floored but I'd want
to be prepared for worse.
I'd expect for this to be a free drop (the best situation) with no
walls nearby. Like most pits that have never been done, you'd expect
loose rock near the opening at the top ready to fall so our caver
would have to be sure to try to knock them loose as he goes down the
initial slope toward the lip.
What would we find down there of interest? I believe that such lava
tubes offer the best chance of finding volatile materials such as
water (ice) and organic compounds deposited by comet impacts over
billions of years. It also could have condensed out of the flowing
lava. It would have frozen and may be covering areas inside the lava
tube as frost. |
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