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| Christopher Culver... |
 Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:10 am |
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I suspect that the Turkic language Chuvash borrowed from its
Finno-Ugrian neighbor Mari what in Mari are words for "grandmother"
and "grandfather". In Chuvash, however, the words became restricted to
the mother's side of the family; they mean only "maternal grandmother"
and "maternal grandfather".
This would be a simple development if intermarriage were commonly
between Chuvash men and Mari women (for which their is some evidence),
and if Mari women left their homes to live solely with their husband's
family (for which there is also some evidence). Chuvash children would
have heard the word from their Mari mothers and grandmothers, while
there would have been less occasion to hear other Mari kinship terms.
Can anyone think of other examples around the world where one
language's general word for "grandparent" became another language's
word for either paternal or maternal grandparent based on the trends
of intermarriage?
And perhaps someone might recommend a general survey of kinship terms
cross-linguistically? Surely this forms a widely commented branch of
the study of the lexicon. |
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| Yusuf B Gursey... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:10 am |
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On Oct 22, 3:58 am, Christopher Culver
<crcul... at (no spam) christopherculver.com> wrote:
[quote]I suspect that the Turkic language Chuvash borrowed from its
Finno-Ugrian neighbor Mari what in Mari are words for "grandmother"
and "grandfather". In Chuvash, however, the words became restricted to
the mother's side of the family; they mean only "maternal grandmother"
and "maternal grandfather".
[/quote]
and the words are?
[quote]
This would be a simple development if intermarriage were commonly
between Chuvash men and Mari women (for which their is some evidence),
and if Mari women left their homes to live solely with their husband's
family (for which there is also some evidence). Chuvash children would
have heard the word from their Mari mothers and grandmothers, while
there would have been less occasion to hear other Mari kinship terms.
Can anyone think of other examples around the world where one
language's general word for "grandparent" became another language's
word for either paternal or maternal grandparent based on the trends
of intermarriage?
And perhaps someone might recommend a general survey of kinship terms
cross-linguistically? Surely this forms a widely commented branch of
the study of the lexicon.[/quote] |
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| Yusuf B Gursey... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 5:19 am |
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On Oct 22, 7:41Ā am, Christopher Culver
<crcul... at (no spam) christopherculver.com> wrote:
[quote]Yusuf B Gursey <y... at (no spam) theworld.com> writes:
On Oct 22, 3:58Ā am, Christopher Culver
crcul... at (no spam) christopherculver.com> wrote:
I suspect that the Turkic language Chuvash borrowed from its
Finno-Ugrian neighbor Mari what in Mari are words for "grandmother"
and "grandfather". In Chuvash, however, the words became restricted to
the mother's side of the family; they mean only "maternal grandmother"
and "maternal grandfather".
and the words are?
I left the words out to avoid overwhelming non-Turkic linguists with
detail, but since you asked they are kukamay āmaternal grandmotherā
and kukaÅey āmaternal grandfatherā. M.R. Fedotovās _EtimologiÄeskij
slovarā ÄuvaÅ”kogo jazyka_ gives their etymology as a compound of
Cv. kÄk ābasis, originā (cf. Turkish kƶk) and the usual Chuvash words
for āmotherā and āfatherā.
[/quote]
huh? the usual Chuvash terms for "mother" is given as anne (in some
compounds as anna) and for "father" atte by J. Krueger "Chuvash
Manual".
both are turkic words.
[quote]
However, the Mari words koĪ²a āgrandmotherā and koÄa āgrandfatherā are
transparently compounds of kuÉ£u ābigā (a solid Finno-Ugrian lexeme) and
the usual Mari words for āmotherā and āfatherā. Therefore, I suspect
that Chuvash simply borrowed the terms from Mari before the Mari words
lost their velar fricatives.[/quote] |
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| Christopher Culver... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 5:53 am |
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Yusuf B Gursey <ybg at (no spam) theworld.com> writes:
[quote]On Oct 22, 3:58Ā am, Christopher Culver
crcul... at (no spam) christopherculver.com> wrote:
I suspect that the Turkic language Chuvash borrowed from its
Finno-Ugrian neighbor Mari what in Mari are words for "grandmother"
and "grandfather". In Chuvash, however, the words became restricted to
the mother's side of the family; they mean only "maternal grandmother"
and "maternal grandfather".
and the words are?
[/quote]
I left the words out to avoid overwhelming non-Turkic linguists with
detail, but since you asked they are kukamay āmaternal grandmotherā
and kukaÅey āmaternal grandfatherā. M.R. Fedotovās _EtimologiÄeskij
slovarā ÄuvaÅ”kogo jazyka_ gives their etymology as a compound of
Cv. kÄk ābasis, originā (cf. Turkish kƶk) and the usual Chuvash words
for āmotherā and āfatherā.
However, the Mari words koĪ²a āgrandmotherā and koÄa āgrandfatherā are
transparently compounds of kuÉ£u ābigā (a solid Finno-Ugrian lexeme) and
the usual Mari words for āmotherā and āfatherā. Therefore, I suspect
that Chuvash simply borrowed the terms from Mari before the Mari words
lost their velar fricatives. |
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| Panu... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:30 am |
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On Oct 22, 10:57Ā pm, Trond Engen <trond... at (no spam) engen.priv.no> wrote:
[quote]Yusuf B Gursey:
On Oct 22, 7:41 am, Christopher Culver
crcul... at (no spam) christopherculver.com> wrote:
Yusuf B Gursey <y... at (no spam) theworld.com> writes:
On Oct 22, 3:58 am, Christopher Culver
crcul... at (no spam) christopherculver.com> wrote:
I suspect that the Turkic language Chuvash borrowed from its
Finno-Ugrian neighbor Mari what in Mari are words for
"grandmother" and "grandfather". In Chuvash, however, the words
became restricted to the mother's side of the family; they mean
only "maternal grandmother" and "maternal grandfather".
and the words are?
I left the words out to avoid overwhelming non-Turkic linguists with
detail, but since you asked they are kukamay āmaternal grandmotherā
and kukaÅey āmaternal grandfatherā. M.R. Fedotovās _EtimologiÄeskij
slovarā ÄuvaÅ”kogo jazyka_ gives their etymology as a compound of
Cv. kÄk ābasis, originā (cf. Turkish kƶk) and the usual Chuvash
words for āmotherā and āfatherā.
huh? the usual Chuvash terms for "mother" is given as anne (in some
compounds as anna) and for "father" atte by J. Krueger "Chuvash
Manual".
both are turkic words.
Thanks. Because of this:
However, the Mari words koĪ²a āgrandmotherā and koÄa āgrandfatherā
are transparently compounds of kuÉ£u ābigā (a solid Finno-Ugrian
lexeme) and the usual Mari words for āmotherā and āfatherā.
Therefore, I suspect that Chuvash simply borrowed the terms from
Mari before the Mari words lost their velar fricatives.
... I was going to ask whether they could have borrowed the compounds
and replaced the second parts by folk etymology. Now my question is
rather if they even borrowed the words for "mother" and "father".
I don't think it would substantially alter Cristopher's socio-substratal
hypothesis, though. Maybe the mother's language provided terms for the
family sphere, or perhaps just nursery words, while both sets of
grandparents were named in their own language. What is the case for
other family members and household terms?
[/quote]
In my family, mother's parents were named in what passed for Finnish,
while father's parents had dialectal Swedish terms. |
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| Trond Engen... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:57 pm |
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Yusuf B Gursey:
[quote]On Oct 22, 7:41 am, Christopher Culver
crcul... at (no spam) christopherculver.com> wrote:
Yusuf B Gursey <y... at (no spam) theworld.com> writes:
On Oct 22, 3:58 am, Christopher Culver
crcul... at (no spam) christopherculver.com> wrote:
I suspect that the Turkic language Chuvash borrowed from its
Finno-Ugrian neighbor Mari what in Mari are words for
"grandmother" and "grandfather". In Chuvash, however, the words
became restricted to the mother's side of the family; they mean
only "maternal grandmother" and "maternal grandfather".
and the words are?
I left the words out to avoid overwhelming non-Turkic linguists with
detail, but since you asked they are kukamay āmaternal grandmotherā
and kukaÅey āmaternal grandfatherā. M.R. Fedotovās _EtimologiÄeskij
slovarā ÄuvaÅ”kogo jazyka_ gives their etymology as a compound of
Cv. kÄk ābasis, originā (cf. Turkish kƶk) and the usual Chuvash
words for āmotherā and āfatherā.
huh? the usual Chuvash terms for "mother" is given as anne (in some
compounds as anna) and for "father" atte by J. Krueger "Chuvash
Manual".
both are turkic words.
[/quote]
Thanks. Because of this:
[quote]However, the Mari words koĪ²a āgrandmotherā and koÄa āgrandfatherā
are transparently compounds of kuÉ£u ābigā (a solid Finno-Ugrian
lexeme) and the usual Mari words for āmotherā and āfatherā.
Therefore, I suspect that Chuvash simply borrowed the terms from
Mari before the Mari words lost their velar fricatives.
[/quote]
.... I was going to ask whether they could have borrowed the compounds
and replaced the second parts by folk etymology. Now my question is
rather if they even borrowed the words for "mother" and "father".
I don't think it would substantially alter Cristopher's socio-substratal
hypothesis, though. Maybe the mother's language provided terms for the
family sphere, or perhaps just nursery words, while both sets of
grandparents were named in their own language. What is the case for
other family members and household terms?
--
Trond Engen |
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| Yusuf B Gursey... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:29 pm |
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On Oct 23, 3:25Ā am, Christopher Culver
<crcul... at (no spam) christopherculver.com> wrote:
[quote]Yusuf B Gursey <y... at (no spam) theworld.com> writes:
On Oct 22, 3:58Ā am, Christopher Culver
crcul... at (no spam) christopherculver.com> wrote:
I left the words out to avoid overwhelming non-Turkic linguists with
detail, but since you asked they are kukamay āmaternal grandmotherā
and kukaÅey āmaternal grandfatherā. M.R. Fedotovās _EtimologiÄeskij
slovarā ÄuvaÅ”kogo jazyka_ gives their etymology as a compound of
Cv. kÄk ābasis, originā (cf. Turkish kƶk) and the usual Chuvash words
for āmotherā and āfatherā.
huh? the usual Chuvash terms for "mother" is given as anne (in some
compounds as anna) and for "father" atte by J. Krueger "Chuvash
Manual". Ā both are turkic words.
Yes, but their stems are highly variable. "His/her mother", for
example, is amÄÅ”Ä ā note the /m/ instead of the /n/ of the nominative
singular ā while "father" also shows /Ä/ or /Å/ instead of /t/ in some
oblique contexts.
[/quote]
then what's Mari about it? |
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| Christopher Culver... |
| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 1:37 am |
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Yusuf B Gursey <ybg at (no spam) theworld.com> writes:
[quote]On Oct 22, 3:58Ā am, Christopher Culver
crcul... at (no spam) christopherculver.com> wrote:
I left the words out to avoid overwhelming non-Turkic linguists with
detail, but since you asked they are kukamay āmaternal grandmotherā
and kukaÅey āmaternal grandfatherā. M.R. Fedotovās _EtimologiÄeskij
slovarā ÄuvaÅ”kogo jazyka_ gives their etymology as a compound of
Cv. kÄk ābasis, originā (cf. Turkish kƶk) and the usual Chuvash words
for āmotherā and āfatherā.
huh? the usual Chuvash terms for "mother" is given as anne (in some
compounds as anna) and for "father" atte by J. Krueger "Chuvash
Manual". both are turkic words.
[/quote]
Yes, but their stems are highly variable. "His/her mother", for
example, is amÄÅ”Ä ā note the /m/ instead of the /n/ of the nominative
singular ā while "father" also shows /Ä/ or /Å/ instead of /t/ in some
oblique contexts. |
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| Christopher Culver... |
| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:06 am |
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Yusuf B Gursey <ybg at (no spam) theworld.com> writes:
[quote]then what's Mari about it?
[/quote]
I believe that the kuk portion of the Chuvash words is from Mari kuĪ³u
'big', present in the Mari words for grandparents. Fedotov's claim
that this is related to Turkish kƶk seems quite a reach. |
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| Yusuf B Gursey... |
| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:00 am |
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On Oct 22, 7:41Ā am, Christopher Culver
<crcul... at (no spam) christopherculver.com> wrote:
[quote]Yusuf B Gursey <y... at (no spam) theworld.com> writes:
On Oct 22, 3:58Ā am, Christopher Culver
crcul... at (no spam) christopherculver.com> wrote:
I suspect that the Turkic language Chuvash borrowed from its
Finno-Ugrian neighbor Mari what in Mari are words for "grandmother"
and "grandfather". In Chuvash, however, the words became restricted to
the mother's side of the family; they mean only "maternal grandmother"
and "maternal grandfather".
and the words are?
I left the words out to avoid overwhelming non-Turkic linguists with
detail, but since you asked they are kukamay āmaternal grandmotherā
and kukaÅey āmaternal grandfatherā. M.R. Fedotovās _EtimologiÄeskij
slovarā ÄuvaÅ”kogo jazyka_ gives their etymology as a compound of
Cv. kÄk ābasis, originā (cf. Turkish kƶk) and the usual Chuvash words
for āmotherā and āfatherā.
However, the Mari words koĪ²a āgrandmotherā and koÄa āgrandfatherā are
transparently compounds of kuÉ£u ābigā (a solid Finno-Ugrian lexeme) and
the usual Mari words for āmotherā and āfatherā. Therefore, I suspect
that Chuvash simply borrowed the terms from Mari before the Mari words
lost their velar fricatives.
[/quote]
but Chuvash has a tendency to lose velar fricatives as well. |
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| VK... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:29 am |
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Christopher Culver wrote:
[quote]Can anyone think of other examples around the world where one
language's general word for "grandparent" became another language's
word for either paternal or maternal grandparent based on the trends
of intermarriage?
[/quote]
Not exactly on that but still interesting: in the modern General
American in its vernacular form there is "a babushka" as a special
kind of a grandmother. Namely it is a grandmother who willingly takes
care of her grandchildren by sacrificing her own free retirement time
and the care of herself.first: with the prevailing connotation of
"coziness, care, psychological warm" . Just another week I was in
"Babushka" small family restaurant in Walnut Creek (CA). This word
clearly originated from Russian immigrants first denoted not the
person but the most distinguish mark of this person and in this form
attested in Random House Webster's of 1997: "a woman's head scarf,
shaped or folded in a triangle, worn with two ends tied under the
chin". So yes, it is possible to adapt a new word for a relative if
that relative gets functions or status missing in the borrowing
language. |
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| Christopher Culver... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 2:36 am |
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[quote]but Chuvash has a tendency to lose velar fricatives as well.
[/quote]
Not at late dates (like contacts between early modern Chuvash and
Mari), and in this position. Furthermore, if these terms are borrowed
from Mari, then Chuvash replaced Mari's velar fricatives with
half-voiced velar stops. |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 2:36 am |
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On Oct 24, 6:29 am, VK <schools_r... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
[quote]Christopher Culver wrote:
Can anyone think of other examples around the world where one
language's general word for "grandparent" became another language's
word for either paternal or maternal grandparent based on the trends
of intermarriage?
Not exactly on that but still interesting: in the modern General
American in its vernacular form there is "a babushka" as a special
kind of a grandmother. Namely it is a grandmother who willingly takes
[/quote]
This is hardly "General American." It may be found in a limited number
of ethnic groups that preserve certain features of East European
culture that are, for better or worse, unknown to most Americans.
[quote]care of her grandchildren by sacrificing her own free retirement time
and the care of herself.first: with the prevailing connotation of
"coziness, care, psychological warm" . Just another week I was in
"Babushka" small family restaurant in Walnut Creek (CA). This word
clearly originated from Russian immigrants first denoted not the
person but the most distinguish mark of this person and in this form
attested in Random House Webster's of 1997: "a woman's head scarf,
shaped or folded in a triangle, worn with two ends tied under the
chin". So yes, it is possible to adapt a new word for a relative if
that relative gets functions or status missing in the borrowing
language.[/quote] |
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| Harlan Messinger... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 6:54 am |
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VK wrote:
[quote]Christopher Culver wrote:
Can anyone think of other examples around the world where one
language's general word for "grandparent" became another language's
word for either paternal or maternal grandparent based on the trends
of intermarriage?
Not exactly on that but still interesting: in the modern General
American in its vernacular form there is "a babushka" as a special
kind of a grandmother. Namely it is a grandmother who willingly takes
care of her grandchildren by sacrificing her own free retirement time
and the care of herself.first: with the prevailing connotation of
"coziness, care, psychological warm" . Just another week I was in
"Babushka" small family restaurant in Walnut Creek (CA). This word
clearly originated from Russian immigrants first denoted not the
person but the most distinguish mark of this person and in this form
attested in Random House Webster's of 1997: "a woman's head scarf,
shaped or folded in a triangle, worn with two ends tied under the
chin". So yes, it is possible to adapt a new word for a relative if
that relative gets functions or status missing in the borrowing
language.
You have the etymology backwards. The head covering is called that by[/quote]
association with grandmothers. Your belief that the use of "babushka" to
mean grandmother was a coinage by Russian immigrants in the United
States is rather bizarre. |
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| John Atkinson... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 7:24 am |
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VK wrote:
[quote]Christopher Culver wrote:
Can anyone think of other examples around the world where one
language's general word for "grandparent" became another language's
word for either paternal or maternal grandparent based on the trends
of intermarriage?
Not exactly on that but still interesting: in the modern General
American in its vernacular form there is "a babushka" as a special
kind of a grandmother. Namely it is a grandmother who willingly takes
care of her grandchildren by sacrificing her own free retirement time
and the care of herself.first: with the prevailing connotation of
"coziness, care, psychological warm" . Just another week I was in
"Babushka" small family restaurant in Walnut Creek (CA). This word
clearly originated from Russian immigrants first denoted not the
person but the most distinguish mark of this person and in this form
attested in Random House Webster's of 1997: "a woman's head scarf,
shaped or folded in a triangle, worn with two ends tied under the
chin". So yes, it is possible to adapt a new word for a relative if
that relative gets functions or status missing in the borrowing
language.
I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. Yes, the occasional use of[/quote]
the word "babushka" in English for the headscarf is indeed due to the
fact that similar scarves are stereotypically worn by old Russian women,
since "Š±Š°ĢŠ±ŃŃŠŗŠ°" is grandmother in Russian. It's commonly used, both in
Russian and English, for any Russian woman of appropriate age and
appearance. The word is also used in English for those Russian-style
nested dolls (called Matryoshka (ŠŠ°ŃŃŃŃŠŗŠ°) dolls in Russia).
You're saying, AFAICT, that it's also become used with its original
Russian meaning, only somewhat more restricted, to a particular kind of
grandmother, one who dedicates herself to her grandchildren in the way
Russian grandmothers are thought to do?
As a Russian word that's well known in English and has suitable
connotations of cosiness and family-type cooking in both languages, it's
hardly surprising that it would be chosen as the name of a small ethnic
restaurant. Cf "Mamma mia's" for a similar Italian restaurant -- or
"Granny's Place" for a backwoodsy American one.
John. |
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