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| Jim... |
 Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 5:56 pm |
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Guest
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Hi,
We have a high ceiling with large beams. We would like some lighting
that can be raised up next to the beams and then lowered for area
lighting when needed. Anyone seen something that may work for us?
JF |
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| Liron... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:07 am |
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Guest
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I have a pendant lamp which you can pull up and pull down to whatever height
you want. Not sure if ti'll go all the way up to the ceiling but it is
height adjustable. Don't ask me where it came from, that was 28 years ago,
but they do exist.
Liron
"Jim" <jferree at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:8e5aa7e7-b5c8-44bc-a963-1b183e764f7e at (no spam) d4g2000vbm.googlegroups.com...
[quote]Hi,
We have a high ceiling with large beams. We would like some lighting
that can be raised up next to the beams and then lowered for area
lighting when needed. Anyone seen something that may work for us?
JF[/quote] |
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| RickR... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:11 am |
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Guest
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On Oct 20, 8:56 pm, Jim <jfer... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]Hi,
We have a high ceiling with large beams. We would like some lighting
that can be raised up next to the beams and then lowered for area
lighting when needed. Anyone seen something that may work for us?
JF
[/quote]
I have two suggestions for you:
1. Chandelier winch - There are motorized winches that install in a
ceiling, mostly so you can change bulbs on a 30' ceiling. Think $1000
- $5000
2. Narrow beam tracklights - It's actually easier to get the light
down low than the fixture. Household track lights that use the "MR16"
lamp can have as small as a 7 degree beam. That about a 2' pool of
light from a +20' ceiling.
-----
RickR |
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| Jeff Engel... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:05 am |
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Guest
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Jim wrote:
[quote]Hi,
We have a high ceiling with large beams. We would like some lighting
that can be raised up next to the beams and then lowered for area
lighting when needed. Anyone seen something that may work for us?
JF
Hello Jim,[/quote]
We at sci.engr.lighting have seen every fixture that exists in the
lighting universe. What we haven't seen is your situation. Your
description omits almost every fact that could be useful in making any
suggestions. Fixtures that raise and lower are not very common because
they are not very effective or easy to make. Answer these questions and
someone on Sci.engr.lighting will toss off an opinion:
What kind of room is it?
Size of room? (width, length, height)
Flat or vaulted ceiling? (wall height, peak height, peak axis length)
Trusses or beams?
Does this room need lighting during daylight hours?
If yes, describe windows by size and location.
About "area lighting", what do you mean? table, counter, workbench,
seating area?
Why do you think a moving fixture is part of the answer?
If you think that one fixture would be cheaper than two, skip the next
question and all those previous.
How much money do you want to spend, before installation and electrical
services?
Are you looking to install new fixtures for the entire room?
What don't you like about the lighting that is currently installed? |
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| Rusty... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:55 am |
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"Jim" <jferree at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:8e5aa7e7-b5c8-44bc-a963-1b183e764f7e at (no spam) d4g2000vbm.googlegroups.com...
[quote]Hi,
We have a high ceiling with large beams. We would like some lighting
that can be raised up next to the beams and then lowered for area
lighting when needed. Anyone seen something that may work for us?
JF
[/quote]
This sounds kinda like theatrical-type lighting, which is why I added a
cross-post to rec.arts.theatre.stagecraft.
What's the space like? is this a home? church? business? how big is the
space?
There are many options of course. Do you want to have separate flood fills
and spotlights? ability to add color? How much control do want over the
area spots? Would you want to spend money on automated lighting? What
about a dimming/control system for independent control of the area spots? do
aesthetics matter?
Rigging is another matter I am not extremely familiar with, but the
chandelier winch mentioned earlier sounds like a good starting point.
What's your budget? Enough for some basic par cans on a track? Or could you
splurge for something a bit more exotic? |
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| Duncan Wood... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:45 pm |
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On Wed, 21 Oct 2009 18:55:16 +0100, Rusty <russjunkmail at (no spam) netscape.net>
wrote:
[quote]"Jim" <jferree at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:8e5aa7e7-b5c8-44bc-a963-1b183e764f7e at (no spam) d4g2000vbm.googlegroups.com...
Hi,
We have a high ceiling with large beams. We would like some lighting
that can be raised up next to the beams and then lowered for area
lighting when needed. Anyone seen something that may work for us?
JF
This sounds kinda like theatrical-type lighting, which is why I added a
cross-post to rec.arts.theatre.stagecraft.
What's the space like? is this a home? church? business? how big is
the space?
There are many options of course. Do you want to have separate flood
fills and spotlights? ability to add color? How much control do want
over the area spots? Would you want to spend money on automated
lighting? What about a dimming/control system for independent control
of the area spots? do aesthetics matter?
Rigging is another matter I am not extremely familiar with, but the
chandelier winch mentioned earlier sounds like a good starting point.
What's your budget? Enough for some basic par cans on a track? Or could
you splurge for something a bit more exotic?
[/quote]
Budget's the deciding factor, if you've got plenty then TV style
pantographs work fine to a reasonable height,
Tamlite make a semi automatic winch
http://www.tamlite.co.uk/product_details.asp?product=546
or if you only need a little adjustment then rise & fall pendants are
moderately economic
http://www.directlight.co.uk/search.php?c_id=0&sc_id=0&search=rise+fall&submit.x=0&submit.y=0 |
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| Atlantic Illumination Entertainment Lighting... |
| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:43 pm |
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Guest
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[quote]"Jim" <jferree at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote: in message
We have a high ceiling with large beams. We would like some lighting
that can be raised up next to the beams and then lowered for area
lighting when needed. Anyone seen something that may work for us?
JF
[/quote]
*** Does it actually need to be raised and lowered? If you just need
area light, could you not arrange for the lights to cover the required
area from the beam height?
If you really do need the lights to be moved, chain winches can be had
at auto parts or surplus places. Be sure to get chains long enough to
span the vertical distance. Chain winches meant for car engine
replacements come with only a metre or two of lift height.
A cheaper solution is to rig boat winches. They use cable instead of
chain. Attach them to close-by walls and run their cables to the beams via
secondary pulleys.
In all cases, hook the chain or cable to pipe with eyebolts or to
truss. Cheap truss can be had from used TV or amateur radio antenna tower.
--
Richard Bonner
http://AIEL.chebucto.biz |
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| David McCall... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:35 am |
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Guest
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"Atlantic Illumination Entertainment Lighting" <aiel at (no spam) chebucto.ns.ca> wrote
in message news:hbtijk$8ut$1 at (no spam) Kil-nws-1.UCIS.Dal.Ca...
[quote]"Jim" <jferree at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote: in message
We have a high ceiling with large beams. We would like some lighting
that can be raised up next to the beams and then lowered for area
lighting when needed. Anyone seen something that may work for us?
JF
*** Does it actually need to be raised and lowered? If you just need
area light, could you not arrange for the lights to cover the required
area from the beam height?
If you really do need the lights to be moved, chain winches can be had
at auto parts or surplus places. Be sure to get chains long enough to
span the vertical distance. Chain winches meant for car engine
replacements come with only a metre or two of lift height.
A cheaper solution is to rig boat winches. They use cable instead of
chain. Attach them to close-by walls and run their cables to the beams via
secondary pulleys.
In all cases, hook the chain or cable to pipe with eyebolts or to
truss. Cheap truss can be had from used TV or amateur radio antenna tower.
--
Richard Bonner
http://AIEL.chebucto.biz
You have wandered out onto a rather shaky limb. Not that the things you[/quote]
suggested wouldn't work, but are they safe? Would you be willing to put your
name on them as a professional in this biz? Anytime you rig equipment
overhead you have to take safety very seriously. I don't think boat winches
and chain motors purchased at an auto parts store are load rated for
theatrical use.
It is one thing for you to make decisions based on your extensive personal
experience where you will be installing and standing behind it personally.
However it is a completely different thing to suggest these solutions on a
public newsgroup where you have no idea if the people you are advising
may not have any concept of structures and stress. You have no way to
know how they will mount the winch or pulleys, and you don't know how
much weight will be put on it in the future. You don't know if a kid could
come by and release the winch while people are standing under the bar.
Even if you were willing to stand behind the installation, it still isn't
legal for
you to install uncertified components in a public space.
David |
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| Duncan Wood... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:51 am |
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On Sat, 24 Oct 2009 16:35:41 +0100, David McCall <mccallmail at (no spam) verizon.net>
wrote:
[quote]
"Atlantic Illumination Entertainment Lighting" <aiel at (no spam) chebucto.ns.ca
wrote
in message news:hbtijk$8ut$1 at (no spam) Kil-nws-1.UCIS.Dal.Ca...
"Jim" <jferree at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote: in message
We have a high ceiling with large beams. We would like some lighting
that can be raised up next to the beams and then lowered for area
lighting when needed. Anyone seen something that may work for us?
JF
*** Does it actually need to be raised and lowered? If you just need
area light, could you not arrange for the lights to cover the required
area from the beam height?
If you really do need the lights to be moved, chain winches can be had
at auto parts or surplus places. Be sure to get chains long enough to
span the vertical distance. Chain winches meant for car engine
replacements come with only a metre or two of lift height.
A cheaper solution is to rig boat winches. They use cable instead of
chain. Attach them to close-by walls and run their cables to the beams
via
secondary pulleys.
In all cases, hook the chain or cable to pipe with eyebolts or to
truss. Cheap truss can be had from used TV or amateur radio antenna
tower.
--
Richard Bonner
http://AIEL.chebucto.biz
You have wandered out onto a rather shaky limb. Not that the things you
suggested wouldn't work, but are they safe? Would you be willing to put
your
name on them as a professional in this biz? Anytime you rig equipment
overhead you have to take safety very seriously. I don't think boat
winches
and chain motors purchased at an auto parts store are load rated for
theatrical use.
[/quote]
Or any other application where they suspend loads above people. Thereagain
most chainhoists used in theatre & rock & roll aren't individually rated
to lift or /suspend/ loads above people.
[quote]It is one thing for you to make decisions based on your extensive
personal
experience where you will be installing and standing behind it
personally.
However it is a completely different thing to suggest these solutions on
a
public newsgroup where you have no idea if the people you are advising
may not have any concept of structures and stress. You have no way to
know how they will mount the winch or pulleys, and you don't know how
much weight will be put on it in the future. You don't know if a kid
could
come by and release the winch while people are standing under the bar.
Even if you were willing to stand behind the installation, it still isn't
legal for
you to install uncertified components in a public space.
David
[/quote] |
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| Richard Crowley... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:34 am |
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David McCall wrote:
[quote]Even if you were willing to stand behind the installation, it still
isn't legal for you to install uncertified components in a public space.
[/quote]
That is all very true. Note however, that absent direct information,
the original issue does NOT appear to be a theatrical (or even
public for all we know) situation. Remember that this thread was
only cross-posted to r.a.t.s (presumably from s.e.l) after it started.
Local jurisdictions regulate what can be deployed in public
places, whether mechanical or electrical, etc. But your warning
is a prudent reminder. |
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| David McCall... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 3:44 pm |
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Guest
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"Richard Crowley" <rcrowley at (no spam) xp7rt.net> wrote in message
news:lfadnXnTtPAOsX7XnZ2dnUVZ_gCdnZ2d at (no spam) posted.pcez...
[quote]David McCall wrote:
Even if you were willing to stand behind the installation, it still
isn't legal for you to install uncertified components in a public space.
That is all very true. Note however, that absent direct information,
the original issue does NOT appear to be a theatrical (or even
public for all we know) situation. Remember that this thread was
only cross-posted to r.a.t.s (presumably from s.e.l) after it started.
Local jurisdictions regulate what can be deployed in public
places, whether mechanical or electrical, etc. But your warning
is a prudent reminder.
My warning was more aimed at the idea of advising a total stranger to[/quote]
use a winch designed for pulling a boat onto a trailer for overhead rigging.
Odds are that it would not be legal and if there was an accident, that
person might point back to this group and say that someone here
suggested that it would be OK.
I'm not paranoid, it's just that everyone IS out to get me :-)
David |
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| Victor Roberts... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 5:21 pm |
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On Sat, 24 Oct 2009 17:44:37 -0400, "David McCall"
<mccallmail at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
[quote]
"Richard Crowley" <rcrowley at (no spam) xp7rt.net> wrote in message
news:lfadnXnTtPAOsX7XnZ2dnUVZ_gCdnZ2d at (no spam) posted.pcez...
David McCall wrote:
Even if you were willing to stand behind the installation, it still
isn't legal for you to install uncertified components in a public space.
That is all very true. Note however, that absent direct information,
the original issue does NOT appear to be a theatrical (or even
public for all we know) situation. Remember that this thread was
only cross-posted to r.a.t.s (presumably from s.e.l) after it started.
Local jurisdictions regulate what can be deployed in public
places, whether mechanical or electrical, etc. But your warning
is a prudent reminder.
My warning was more aimed at the idea of advising a total stranger to
use a winch designed for pulling a boat onto a trailer for overhead rigging.
Odds are that it would not be legal and if there was an accident, that
person might point back to this group and say that someone here
suggested that it would be OK.
I'm not paranoid, it's just that everyone IS out to get me :-)
David
[/quote]
Let me throw in my 2 cents.
I have a boat on a trailer, and can confirm that winches
designed to pull boats on to trailers DO NOT have a secure
means of locking the winch. They do not need a secure lock,
since the boat is usually not going anywhere if the winch
becomes unlocked.
While it may take quite a bit of force to pull a boat onto a
trailer, once the boat stops moving against the friction of
the bunkers on the trailer, there is almost no "unwinding"
force on the winch. The friction of the bunkers holds the
boat in place and the winch is not needed to keep the boat
from moving back off the trailer.
The winch locks are used to partially hold the boat on the
trailer when it is bouncing down the road, but the
"unwinding" force on the winch is very, very, small because
the boat is then strapped to the trailer. Mostly the winch
locks just keep the rope from unwinding due to its own its
own weight and dragging on the ground.
The locks these winches have are totally inadequate for
holding the winch against any substantial force for any
length of time.
This is one of many reason why using a boat winch for this
application is a VERY BAD idea.
--
Vic Roberts
http://www.RobertsResearchInc.com
http://www.cflfacts.com
To reply via e-mail:
replace xxx with vdr in the Reply to: address
or use e-mail address listed at the Web site.
This information is provided for educational purposes only.
It may not be used in any publication or posted on any Web
site without written permission. |
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| Dave Vick... |
| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 5:49 pm |
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Guest
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To address the original question, look into DeSisti Lighting; they have
a winched-batten lifting system commonly used for theatrical
houselighting that may serve your needs. It's pricy, but it'll
certainly do what you say you need. I installed a few of them in a
middle school auditorium a couple of years back, and they're pretty
slick.
As far as the liability issues raised, I'm in violent agreement; chain
hoists may well handle the load, but many manufacturers do not certify
certain model lines for overhead lifting.
Using "borrowed technology" (I'm trying to be polite here) such as boat
winches for overhead lifting is an invitation to disaster. Please do not
even consider it.
--
Dave Vick
Asst. Carpenter/Rigger
"A Chorus Line" National Tour '08-'??
(...and ETCP Certified Rigger, Arena and Theatre) |
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| David McCall... |
| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 11:15 pm |
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I really didn't intend to start a rag fest on Richard.
He is a very useful member of this community.
It just seemed like a bad idea to suggest such things in a public
forum where you don't know who you might be influencing.
You might get away with such a winch if you mounted everything
securely and safetyed it once it was in place so that you never
relied on the winch to hold any load except for while it was moving,
and then you took it out before somebody got hurt. Even then it
qualifies as bad practice.
I wouldn't use an eye-bolt here either because the nut has the potential
of working it's way off and dropping it's load. So to speak. I would
prefer to wrap the cable around the pipe or perhaps use a hitch
and then swag it or use 3 wire clips to secure it. Faster and Safer.
Pipe isn't much fun to drill anyway.
David |
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| Duncan Wood... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:48 am |
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Guest
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On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 05:15:46 -0000, David McCall <mccallmail at (no spam) verizon.net>
wrote:
[quote]I really didn't intend to start a rag fest on Richard.
He is a very useful member of this community.
It just seemed like a bad idea to suggest such things in a public
forum where you don't know who you might be influencing.
You might get away with such a winch if you mounted everything
securely and safetyed it once it was in place so that you never
relied on the winch to hold any load except for while it was moving,
and then you took it out before somebody got hurt. Even then it
qualifies as bad practice.
I wouldn't use an eye-bolt here either because the nut has the potential
of working it's way off and dropping it's load. So to speak. I would
prefer to wrap the cable around the pipe or perhaps use a hitch
and then swag it or use 3 wire clips to secure it. Faster and Safer.
Pipe isn't much fun to drill anyway.
David
[/quote]
Amusingly doing either tends to get the job failed over here, if it's
going to be used for lifting then it gets a barrel clamp & an eye or wedge
socket on the end of the rope. |
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