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| Science Forum Index » Engineering - Lighting Forum » Something new for CFL ceiling lighting?... |
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| I.N. Galidakis... |
 Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:17 pm |
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Guest
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Rusty wrote:
[quote]"I.N. Galidakis" <morpheus at (no spam) olympus.mons> wrote in message
news:1255940237.941913 at (no spam) athprx04...
If I remember well, you said something about a dancing floor?
That was me. The issue I was pointing out was how a good CRI can make a
difference, not related to the color temp. I also wanted to make the
differnce very apparent since the lights were those crap 67CRI 4100K T12s,
so keeping the same color temp wouldn't have been as obvious.
[/quote]
My apologies. Memory failure. This thread has gotten a bit longish and I lost
track of who said what.
[snip]
[quote]Sarah did mention pet birds which should be a factor.
[/quote]
For birds and other pets such as reptiles my recommendation would be High
Pressure Mercury corrected. The latter give off very small amounts of longwave
UV which seems to be needed for many pets. I am pretty sure reptiles need it,
but I am not so sure about birds.
--
Ioannis |
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| TKM... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 7:29 am |
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Guest
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"Don Klipstein" <don at (no spam) manx.misty.com> wrote in message
news:slrnhdpoop.dfr.don at (no spam) manx.misty.com...
[quote]In <Xns9CA920C75AABSntzldfrdSntzldfrdco at (no spam) 216.196.97.142>, S. Austin wrote:
"I.N. Galidakis" <morpheus at (no spam) olympus.mons> wrote :
I.N. Galidakis wrote:
[snip]
The results will be better if you search for LINEAR, LONG
fluorescents, with those specs, in the range of 30-60 Watts. Not
COMPACT fluorescents.
For example:
http://www.lightbulbsdirect.com/page/001/CTGY/T12
Since these are marketed as "full-spectrum" (left column), it's a
pretty safe bet that they are triphosphor technology fluorescents.
Look closely at around the 4,100-4,200 K items.
Wow, the octron look interesting:
These come in both 741 and 841, with 841 having better color rendering.
- Don Klipstein (don at (no spam) misty.com)
[/quote]
No small diameter lamps (T8 or less) are likely to use the old
halo-phosphors to improve color rendering because of rapid light output
depreciation due to high current density as Vic pointed out some months
back. Rather, rare-earth phosphors are used to fill in the spectral gaps so
that high-CRI lamps have four or more phosphors instead of the usual three.
Such lamps are tricky to build because of color-control problems and, of
course, they are more expensive.
Terry McGowan |
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| Sarah Austin... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:00 pm |
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Guest
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I went to Home Depot and had a look, and found some Ecosmart "Bright
White" 30 watt spirals, 2100 lumens, 3500k.
http://www.homedepot.com/Lighting-Fans-Light-Bulbs/EcoSmart/h_d1/N-
5yc1vZ1xhfZas2zZ4b8/R-100663852/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=
10051&catalogId=10053
Here's how one looks next to an Ecosmart 5500k 27w
http://lakewoodcolorado.net/Sarah/DSCN5318.JPG
It's hard to tell whether the 5500k is just too blue, or the 3500k is just
too yellow.
What about a pure white light?
But these ARE so bright that you cant look at them, just not what I'd call
"white". They have no CRI that I can tell, on the packaging or the web
page. |
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| Sarah Austin... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:16 pm |
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don at (no spam) manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein) wrote :
[quote]In <dould55ncrpd5n7ra1oe3l8t5qk4amfh0g at (no spam) 4ax.com>, V. Roberts wrote in
part:
On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 21:07:01 -0400, "TKM" <noname at (no spam) no.net> wrote:
[snip]
Good advice from Wes. CFLs that are less heat tolerant are marked
that they have to be used in open fixtures. Most CFLs, however,
are not marked and they can be used in either enclosed or open
fixtures. UL tests such CFLs for electrical and fire safety in
enclosures.
Your chances of getting a good CFL go up if you buy those marked as
Energy Star.
I disagree re: the effect of enclosed fixtures on CFLs.
Certainly, any CFL not marked for use only in open fixtures
will be safe in an enclosed fixture,
Except for the dollar store stool specimens with mention of UL
listing
being usually absent, and maybe suspicious if present.
I find CFLs of "dollar store brands" generally objectionable, for
many
reasons. My experience with these has ones with light output claims
having a 100% rate of falling short, most of these to have either a
halophosphate phosphor or mostly-halophosphate phosphor (low CRI in
warmer colors), sometimes claiming warm color when color temp. is
6500-7500 K, and an above-average rate of spectacular failures.
- Don Klipstein (don at (no spam) misty.com)
[/quote]
Non-issue to me, I shop Home Depot, not dollar stores.
IMO dollar stores sell things for far more than a dollar, that probably
only cost THEM a dollar. |
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| Sarah Austin... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:17 pm |
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Guest
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Victor Roberts <xxx at (no spam) lighting-research.com> wrote :
[quote]On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 15:24:44 -0600, "Rusty"
russjunkmail at (no spam) netscape.net> wrote:
"Sarah Austin" <SAustin at (no spam) pndfnospam.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9CA6EB166F841SntzldfrdSntzldfrdco at (no spam) 216.196.97.142...
"Rusty" <russjunkmail at (no spam) netscape.net> wrote :
Something occurred to me, you never really mentioned if the energy
savings was a factor.
Absolutely. This if for home and home office and they're talking
about this "cap and trade" stuff.
"Under my plan of a cap and trade system, electricity rates would
necessarily skyrocket." - Barack Obama
If it's not, then might I suggest so=called daylight incandescent
bulbs?
Arent incandescent bulbs going to be banned by 2014?
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=59298
If you are unable to find good CFLs that work well in enclosed
fixtures, then you may need to replace the fixure. I know of similar
fixtures that use pin-based CFLs with a separate ballast, which is
nice because the tube is what burns out most often, and you don't
waste a perfectly good ballast.
And ... it is the life of the ballast that is reduced by the
high temperatures inside the fixture. By using pin-base
lamps, and placing the ballast outside the part where the
lamp is located, these fixture provide mush longer ballast
life. Plus, they are more environmentally friendly because,
as you have noted, you do not throw away the ballast every
time you change the lamp.
[/quote]
Another aspect is that a lot of these lamps will cut back light output
when they're warm, wont they? |
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| Sarah Austin... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:20 pm |
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Guest
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"I.N. Galidakis" <morpheus at (no spam) olympus.mons> wrote :
[quote]Sarah Austin wrote:
[snip]
Wow, the octron look interesting:
http://www.lightbulbsdirect.com/page/001/PROD/T8%2BOctron/F32T8835
I will not make any specific recommendations, except to outline two
cases:
1) If the space you intend to illuminate will host detailed work
which depends on good color quality, go with 4,100K.
2) If the space you intend to illuminate will host a more relaxed
environment, such as a resting place or living room, consider a
little lower CCT, such as 3,500K.
If I remember well, you said something about a dancing floor?
[/quote]
Not me, that was someone else. |
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| Sarah Austin... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:21 pm |
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Guest
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"I.N. Galidakis" <morpheus at (no spam) olympus.mons> wrote :
[quote]Rusty wrote:
"I.N. Galidakis" <morpheus at (no spam) olympus.mons> wrote in message
news:1255940237.941913 at (no spam) athprx04...
If I remember well, you said something about a dancing floor?
That was me. The issue I was pointing out was how a good CRI can
make a difference, not related to the color temp. I also wanted to
make the differnce very apparent since the lights were those crap
67CRI 4100K T12s, so keeping the same color temp wouldn't have been
as obvious.
My apologies. Memory failure. This thread has gotten a bit longish
and I lost track of who said what.
[snip]
Sarah did mention pet birds which should be a factor.
For birds and other pets such as reptiles my recommendation would be
High Pressure Mercury corrected. The latter give off very small
amounts of longwave UV which seems to be needed for many pets. I am
pretty sure reptiles need it, but I am not so sure about birds.
[/quote]
Birds need some UVA and UVB for vitamin D synthesis, I understand. |
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| Victor Roberts... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 7:14 pm |
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Guest
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On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 22:35:48 +0000 (UTC), don at (no spam) manx.misty.com
(Don Klipstein) wrote:
[quote]In <dould55ncrpd5n7ra1oe3l8t5qk4amfh0g at (no spam) 4ax.com>, V. Roberts wrote in part:
On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 21:07:01 -0400, "TKM" <noname at (no spam) no.net> wrote:
[snip]
Good advice from Wes. CFLs that are less heat tolerant are marked that they
have to be used in open fixtures. Most CFLs, however, are not marked and
they can be used in either enclosed or open fixtures. UL tests such CFLs
for electrical and fire safety in enclosures.
Your chances of getting a good CFL go up if you buy those marked as Energy
Star.
I disagree re: the effect of enclosed fixtures on CFLs.
Certainly, any CFL not marked for use only in open fixtures
will be safe in an enclosed fixture,
Except for the dollar store stool specimens with mention of UL listing
being usually absent, and maybe suspicious if present.
I find CFLs of "dollar store brands" generally objectionable, for many
reasons. My experience with these has ones with light output claims
having a 100% rate of falling short, most of these to have either a
halophosphate phosphor or mostly-halophosphate phosphor (low CRI in warmer
colors), sometimes claiming warm color when color temp. is 6500-7500 K,
and an above-average rate of spectacular failures.
- Don Klipstein (don at (no spam) misty.com)
[/quote]
Good point. None of my comments or suggestions EVER refer
to "dollar store" lamps. I have never purchased one and
probably never will.
--
Vic Roberts
http://www.RobertsResearchInc.com
http://www.cflfacts.com
To reply via e-mail:
replace xxx with vdr in the Reply to: address
or use e-mail address listed at the Web site.
This information is provided for educational purposes only.
It may not be used in any publication or posted on any Web
site without written permission. |
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| Victor Roberts... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 7:20 pm |
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Guest
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On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 17:00:37 -0500, Sarah Austin
<SAustin at (no spam) pndfnospam.com> wrote:
[quote]I went to Home Depot and had a look, and found some Ecosmart "Bright
White" 30 watt spirals, 2100 lumens, 3500k.
http://www.homedepot.com/Lighting-Fans-Light-Bulbs/EcoSmart/h_d1/N-
5yc1vZ1xhfZas2zZ4b8/R-100663852/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=
10051&catalogId=10053
Here's how one looks next to an Ecosmart 5500k 27w
http://lakewoodcolorado.net/Sarah/DSCN5318.JPG
It's hard to tell whether the 5500k is just too blue, or the 3500k is just
too yellow.
[/quote]
It's impossible to tell from a photograph. The human
eye/brain system makes adjustments in real time that the
camera cannot capture.
[quote]What about a pure white light?
[/quote]
What do you mean by "pure white"? White light comes in
various color temperatures. They are all "pure white."
[quote]But these ARE so bright that you cant look at them, just not what I'd call
"white". They have no CRI that I can tell, on the packaging or the web
page.
[/quote]
--
Vic Roberts
http://www.RobertsResearchInc.com
http://www.cflfacts.com
To reply via e-mail:
replace xxx with vdr in the Reply to: address
or use e-mail address listed at the Web site.
This information is provided for educational purposes only.
It may not be used in any publication or posted on any Web
site without written permission. |
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| Back to top |
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| Victor Roberts... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 7:22 pm |
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Guest
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On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 17:17:46 -0500, Sarah Austin
<SAustin at (no spam) pndfnospam.com> wrote:
[quote]Victor Roberts <xxx at (no spam) lighting-research.com> wrote :
On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 15:24:44 -0600, "Rusty"
russjunkmail at (no spam) netscape.net> wrote:
"Sarah Austin" <SAustin at (no spam) pndfnospam.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9CA6EB166F841SntzldfrdSntzldfrdco at (no spam) 216.196.97.142...
"Rusty" <russjunkmail at (no spam) netscape.net> wrote :
Something occurred to me, you never really mentioned if the energy
savings was a factor.
Absolutely. This if for home and home office and they're talking
about this "cap and trade" stuff.
"Under my plan of a cap and trade system, electricity rates would
necessarily skyrocket." - Barack Obama
If it's not, then might I suggest so=called daylight incandescent
bulbs?
Arent incandescent bulbs going to be banned by 2014?
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=59298
If you are unable to find good CFLs that work well in enclosed
fixtures, then you may need to replace the fixure. I know of similar
fixtures that use pin-based CFLs with a separate ballast, which is
nice because the tube is what burns out most often, and you don't
waste a perfectly good ballast.
And ... it is the life of the ballast that is reduced by the
high temperatures inside the fixture. By using pin-base
lamps, and placing the ballast outside the part where the
lamp is located, these fixture provide mush longer ballast
life. Plus, they are more environmentally friendly because,
as you have noted, you do not throw away the ballast every
time you change the lamp.
Another aspect is that a lot of these lamps will cut back light output
when they're warm, wont they?
[/quote]
No more than any other CFL. If properly designed, they
should run at peak output and efficacy when fully warmed up.
--
Vic Roberts
http://www.RobertsResearchInc.com
http://www.cflfacts.com
To reply via e-mail:
replace xxx with vdr in the Reply to: address
or use e-mail address listed at the Web site.
This information is provided for educational purposes only.
It may not be used in any publication or posted on any Web
site without written permission. |
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| Back to top |
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| Sarah Austin... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:03 pm |
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Guest
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Victor Roberts <xxx at (no spam) lighting-research.com> wrote :
[quote]On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 17:00:37 -0500, Sarah Austin
SAustin at (no spam) pndfnospam.com> wrote:
I went to Home Depot and had a look, and found some Ecosmart "Bright
White" 30 watt spirals, 2100 lumens, 3500k.
http://www.homedepot.com/Lighting-Fans-Light-Bulbs/EcoSmart/h_d1/N-
5yc1vZ1xhfZas2zZ4b8/R-100663852/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=
10051&catalogId=10053
Here's how one looks next to an Ecosmart 5500k 27w
http://lakewoodcolorado.net/Sarah/DSCN5318.JPG
It's hard to tell whether the 5500k is just too blue, or the 3500k is
just too yellow.
It's impossible to tell from a photograph. The human
eye/brain system makes adjustments in real time that the
camera cannot capture.
[/quote]
I see that now. ( no pun intended 
I turned on these new Bright Whites and a 40W 2700k one that I put in
the dining room drop-down lamp, and then compared with the 5500k ones in
the other rooms, and in context, the 2700k does look yellowish, the
3500k does look mostly bright white, with a little yellow, and the 5500k
of course look bluish.
[quote]What about a pure white light?
What do you mean by "pure white"? White light comes in
various color temperatures. They are all "pure white."
[/quote]
Argh.
Well what I mean, is that if you look at these spectrum charts of color
temp, like the one at
http://www.soslightbulbs.com/colortemperaturechart.aspx
there's a small region of plain white that seems neither yellowish or
bluish. Pure white? |
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| Rusty... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:47 pm |
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Guest
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"Victor Roberts" <xxx at (no spam) lighting-research.com> wrote in message
news:b1osd5dun17vn8vl8dns7k11b0c2rirnc2 at (no spam) 4ax.com...
[quote]On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 22:35:48 +0000 (UTC), don at (no spam) manx.misty.com
(Don Klipstein) wrote:
In <dould55ncrpd5n7ra1oe3l8t5qk4amfh0g at (no spam) 4ax.com>, V. Roberts wrote in part:
On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 21:07:01 -0400, "TKM" <noname at (no spam) no.net> wrote:
[snip]
Good advice from Wes. CFLs that are less heat tolerant are marked that
they
have to be used in open fixtures. Most CFLs, however, are not marked
and
they can be used in either enclosed or open fixtures. UL tests such
CFLs
for electrical and fire safety in enclosures.
Your chances of getting a good CFL go up if you buy those marked as
Energy
Star.
I disagree re: the effect of enclosed fixtures on CFLs.
Certainly, any CFL not marked for use only in open fixtures
will be safe in an enclosed fixture,
Except for the dollar store stool specimens with mention of UL listing
being usually absent, and maybe suspicious if present.
I find CFLs of "dollar store brands" generally objectionable, for many
reasons. My experience with these has ones with light output claims
having a 100% rate of falling short, most of these to have either a
halophosphate phosphor or mostly-halophosphate phosphor (low CRI in warmer
colors), sometimes claiming warm color when color temp. is 6500-7500 K,
and an above-average rate of spectacular failures.
- Don Klipstein (don at (no spam) misty.com)
Good point. None of my comments or suggestions EVER refer
to "dollar store" lamps. I have never purchased one and
probably never will.
[/quote]
I was visiting family in Houston TX, and went shopping with my dad at a
dollar store, he saw some CFLs and gave them a shot.
Bad choice, I installed them in the laundry room and they were the most
HIDEOUS color temp with a bad CRI I have ever seen, way worse than those
blasted cheap cool white T12s I keep on mentioning. |
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| Don Klipstein... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:00 pm |
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Guest
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In <Xns9CAAA2E4CAC0FSntzldfrdSntzldfrdco at (no spam) 216.196.97.142>, Sarah Austin
wrote:
[quote]I went to Home Depot and had a look, and found some Ecosmart "Bright
White" 30 watt spirals, 2100 lumens, 3500k.
http://www.homedepot.com/Lighting-Fans-Light-Bulbs/EcoSmart/h_d1/N-
5yc1vZ1xhfZas2zZ4b8/R-100663852/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=
10051&catalogId=10053
Here's how one looks next to an Ecosmart 5500k 27w
http://lakewoodcolorado.net/Sarah/DSCN5318.JPG
It's hard to tell whether the 5500k is just too blue, or the 3500k is just
too yellow.
What about a pure white light?
But these ARE so bright that you cant look at them, just not what I'd call
"white". They have no CRI that I can tell, on the packaging or the web
page.
[/quote]
Chances are the CRI is the 82 that is usual of CFLs, other than the few
claiming more and the dollar store stool specimens.
- Don Klipstein (don at (no spam) misty.com) |
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| Victor Roberts... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:06 pm |
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Guest
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On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 23:03:18 -0500, Sarah Austin
<SAustin at (no spam) pndfnospam.com> wrote:
[quote]Victor Roberts <xxx at (no spam) lighting-research.com> wrote :
On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 17:00:37 -0500, Sarah Austin
SAustin at (no spam) pndfnospam.com> wrote:
I went to Home Depot and had a look, and found some Ecosmart "Bright
White" 30 watt spirals, 2100 lumens, 3500k.
http://www.homedepot.com/Lighting-Fans-Light-Bulbs/EcoSmart/h_d1/N-
5yc1vZ1xhfZas2zZ4b8/R-100663852/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=
10051&catalogId=10053
Here's how one looks next to an Ecosmart 5500k 27w
http://lakewoodcolorado.net/Sarah/DSCN5318.JPG
It's hard to tell whether the 5500k is just too blue, or the 3500k is
just too yellow.
It's impossible to tell from a photograph. The human
eye/brain system makes adjustments in real time that the
camera cannot capture.
I see that now. ( no pun intended :)
I turned on these new Bright Whites and a 40W 2700k one that I put in
the dining room drop-down lamp, and then compared with the 5500k ones in
the other rooms, and in context, the 2700k does look yellowish, the
3500k does look mostly bright white, with a little yellow, and the 5500k
of course look bluish.
What about a pure white light?
What do you mean by "pure white"? White light comes in
various color temperatures. They are all "pure white."
Argh. :)
Well what I mean, is that if you look at these spectrum charts of color
temp, like the one at
http://www.soslightbulbs.com/colortemperaturechart.aspx
there's a small region of plain white that seems neither yellowish or
bluish. Pure white?
[/quote]
I have lost your original intent. Do you want a "white"
light for some specific purpose, such as color matching
fabrics? In that case the question of the best "white"
light has one answer, or set of answers.
However, if you want a color temperature that looks pleasing
in a particular environment, the question becomes far more
complicated. Noon time sunlight looks great outside.
However, as others have pointed out, if you use EXACTLY that
same color inside at typical indoor illumination levels,
most people would say it looks terrible, and also that it
looks "too blue." On the other hand, many people define
the color of tungsten halogen incandescent lamps as "crisp
white," yet this source has a color temperature near 3000K,
and would look yellowish with compared to sunlight or
photographed by a camera that is set for "daylight"
compensation.
I use a camera to document evidence for various legal cases
I am involved with. I know that, unless I am very careful,
objects that look one way to my eye can look very different
when they are captured by the camera. The human brain has a
way of compensating for the average color temperature of a
scene, while a camera does not, unless specifically
instructed by the human user.
--
Vic Roberts
http://www.RobertsResearchInc.com
http://www.cflfacts.com
To reply via e-mail:
replace xxx with vdr in the Reply to: address
or use e-mail address listed at the Web site.
This information is provided for educational purposes only.
It may not be used in any publication or posted on any Web
site without written permission. |
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| Back to top |
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| Don Klipstein... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:11 pm |
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Guest
|
In article <hbm3p6$eor$1 at (no spam) aioe.org>, Rusty wrote:
[quote]
"Victor Roberts" <xxx at (no spam) lighting-research.com> wrote in message
news:b1osd5dun17vn8vl8dns7k11b0c2rirnc2 at (no spam) 4ax.com...
On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 22:35:48 +0000 (UTC), don at (no spam) manx.misty.com
(Don Klipstein) wrote:
In <dould55ncrpd5n7ra1oe3l8t5qk4amfh0g at (no spam) 4ax.com>, V. Roberts wrote in part:
On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 21:07:01 -0400, "TKM" <noname at (no spam) no.net> wrote:
[snip]
Good advice from Wes. CFLs that are less heat tolerant are marked that
they
have to be used in open fixtures. Most CFLs, however, are not marked
and
they can be used in either enclosed or open fixtures. UL tests such
CFLs
for electrical and fire safety in enclosures.
Your chances of getting a good CFL go up if you buy those marked as
Energy
Star.
I disagree re: the effect of enclosed fixtures on CFLs.
Certainly, any CFL not marked for use only in open fixtures
will be safe in an enclosed fixture,
Except for the dollar store stool specimens with mention of UL listing
being usually absent, and maybe suspicious if present.
I find CFLs of "dollar store brands" generally objectionable, for many
reasons. My experience with these has ones with light output claims
having a 100% rate of falling short, most of these to have either a
halophosphate phosphor or mostly-halophosphate phosphor (low CRI in warmer
colors), sometimes claiming warm color when color temp. is 6500-7500 K,
and an above-average rate of spectacular failures.
- Don Klipstein (don at (no spam) misty.com)
Good point. None of my comments or suggestions EVER refer
to "dollar store" lamps. I have never purchased one and
probably never will.
I was visiting family in Houston TX, and went shopping with my dad at a
dollar store, he saw some CFLs and gave them a shot.
Bad choice, I installed them in the laundry room and they were the most
HIDEOUS color temp with a bad CRI I have ever seen, way worse than those
blasted cheap cool white T12s I keep on mentioning.
[/quote]
You are reminding me of most "warm color" dollar store CFLs. My
experience is that if they are warm color rather than bluish-daylight
color, they are usually some sort of purplish-beigeish-pinkish with CCT
eyeball-estimate around 2900-3000 K and with a spectrum similar to that of
"old tech warm white" (whose CRI is 53).
Some in packages saying "soft warm white light" are actually
bluish-daylight - with CRI probably in the mid to maybe upper 70's.
Including a Telstar one that lasted 3 minutes, then filled my bedroom with
smoke and had an orange glow in its ballast housing that persisted until I
turned it off.
- Don Klipstein (don at (no spam) misty.com) |
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