 |
|
| Science Forum Index » Chemistry Forum » Freezing water in a confined space... |
|
Page 1 of 1 |
|
| Author |
Message |
| Mazer... |
 Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:48 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
Hello and thanks for checking out my posting.
Can anyone please help me with a fairly elementary question please?
When I freeze water and make Ice cubes, for example, I notice that the
water expands in the tray when it turns to Ice.
My question is: If i put the same water into a rigid box that is
filled to the top and sealed on all sides, what would happen to the
water as it freezes? Would the ice be stronger? Would the crystals
be smaller? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Eric |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| khadema al suna... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:52 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
The Description of the Barrier Between Two Seas
Sorry for not sending anything related to this group but it
might be something new to you
Oceanographers, in the wake of the scientific progress in this age,
have discovered the barrier between two seas. They have found that a
barrier separates two neighboring seas. The barrier moves between
them, and it is called by scientists “a front” compared to the front
between two armies. By virtue of this barrier each sea retains its own
characteristics which Allah (SWT) has assigned to it and which are
suitable for the organisms living in that environment.
Because of this barrier, the two neighboring seas mingle so slowly
that the amount of water that passes from one sea to the other
acquires the characteristics of the other sea while crossing the
barrier which overturns the waters crossing from one sea to the other,
keeping each sea with its own characteristics.
The gradual progress of human knowledge about the fact of the
differences between seawater masses and the existence of barriers
between them : Oceanographers discovered that there were certain
differences between water samples taken from various seas in 1284 AH/
1873 AD, by the British Marine Scientific Expedition of the Challenger
Voyage. It was discovered that masses of sea water vary in their
composition, in respect of salinity, water temperature, density and
types of marine organisms. The data were obtained from 362
oceanographic stations. The report of the expedition filled 29,500
pages in 50 volumes and took 23 years to complete. One of the great
achievements of scientific exploration, the expedition also showed how
little man knew about the sea. After 1933 AD another American
expedition set out in the Mexican Gulf and installed hundreds of sea
stations to study the characteristics of seas. It found out that a
large number of stations in a certain area gave similar information
about the characteristics of the water in that area, whether in
respect of salinity, density, temperature, marine organisms or
solubility of oxygen in water, while another group of stations in
another area gave a different set of data about that area. So,
oceanographers concluded that there were two distinctive seas with
different characteristics, and not just limited samples as the
Expedition of Challenger showed. Man installed hundreds of marine
stations to study the characteristics of various seas. Scientists have
found out that the differences in these characteristics distinguished
one sea from another. But why do these seas not mix and become
homogeneous in spite of the effect of tide and ebb that moves sea
water twice a day, and causes seas to move forward and backward
turbulently, besides other factors that cause sea water to be in
continuous movement and turbulence, such as surface and internal waves
and sea currents? The answer appeared for the first time in scientific
books in 1361 AH/1942 AD. Extensive studies of marine characteristics
revealed that there are water barriers separating neighboring seas and
maintaining the distinctive properties of each sea with respect to
density, salinity, marine life, temperature and solubility of oxygen
in water.
There are large waves, strong currents, and tides in the
Mediterranean Sea and the Atlantic Ocean. Mediterranean Sea water
enters the Atlantic by Gibraltar. But their temperature, salinity, and
densities do not change, because of the barrier that separates them.
After 1962 AD there was known the role of sea barriers in modifying
the properties of the water masses that pass from one sea to another,
to prevent one sea from overwhelming the other. So salty seas retain
their own properties and boundaries by virtue of these barriers. A
field study comparing the waters of Oman Gulf and those of the Arabian
Gulf has shown the difference between them regarding their chemical
properties, the prevalent vegetation and the barrier separating them.
About a hundred years of research and study has been required to
discover the fact of the existence of barriers between sea water
masses and their role in making each sea retain its own properties.
Hundred of researchers took part and numerous precise scientific
instruments and equipment were used to achieve that. Fourteen
centuries ago the Holy Qur’an revealed this fact. Allah (SWT) says:
(He has let free (MARAJA) the two sees meeting together. Between them
is a barrier that they do not transgress. Then which of the Blessings
of your Lord will you both (Jinn and men) deny? Out of them both come
out pearls and carol.” (LV: 19-22) Allah (SWT) also says: “And He made
a barrier between the two seas.) (XXVII: 61) Linguistic meanings and
the commentators’ sayings: Maraja (let free): IbnFaris said:
“’maraja’: The consonants m, r and j form a root indicating a movement
of going and coming and turbulence.” Al-Bahrayn (the two seas): Al-
Asfahani said: “Some say that the word “bahr” (sea) is usually used to
mean salt water rather than fresh water.” Ibn Manzursaid: “’Bahr’ is
more frequently used to describe salt water than fresh water.” If the
word “bahr” is used without qualification it means salt water;
otherwise, it means the thing qualified.” The Holy Qur’an uses
“nahr” (river) to indicate abundant running fresh water, while it uses
“bahr” (sea) to indicate salt water. Allah (SWT) says: (And He has
made the ships to be of service to you that they may sail through the
sea by His Command; and He has made rivers (also) to be of service to
you.)(XIV: 32) In the hadith, “bahr” (sea) is also used to mean salt
water. Allah’s Messenger (Peace be upon him) was asked by a man who
said: “O Allah’s Messenger! We travel by sea and carry with us a
little fresh water. If we should use it for wudu (ablution) we would
get thirsty. May we use seawater for wudu? Allah’ Messenger (Peace be
upon him) said: “Its water is pure and its dead (animals) are lawful
(to eat).” Al-Barzakh: It is the barrier. Most commentatorssuggest
that it is invisible. Al-baghi: Ibn Manzur said: “’Al-Baghi’ means
transgression, exceeding the limits.” Al-Jawhari and Al-Asfahani said
the same. Al-Marjan: Ibn Al-Jawzi said: “Al-Qadi Abu Ya’li says that
Al-Marjan is a kind of bar-like pearls. Al-Zajjajsaid: “Al-Marjan is
white, very white.” Ibn Mas’ud said: “Al-Marjan is red beads.” Abu
Hayyan said that to some people Al-Marjan is red stone. Al-Qurtubi
said: “It is said that Al-Marjan is the big pearls. The same is also
said by ‘Ali and Ibn ‘Abbas (May Allah bestow His Mercy on them both).
The small pieces of Marjan are the small pearls. It is also reported
on their authority the opposite: the big pieces are called pearls and
the smaller are called Marjan. Al-Dahhak and Qatadah said the same.”
Al-Alusi said: “If we take into consideration the connotation of
brilliance and glitter which the Arabic word “pearls” carries, and the
connotation of movement and mixing that the word “Marjan” carries, we
can say that “pearls” is used for big pieces and “Marjan” for small
ones.” Anyhow, Marjan is a kind of ornament that is found in various
colors: white and red. It may be in big or small pieces. It is bar-
like stone. In the Verse it is something other than pearls, for the
conjunction “and” implies talking bout two different things. Marjan
(carol), however, is found in salt seas only. The Verse shows us the
minute secrets which oceanography has revealed only recently. They
describe the meeting between salt seas. Following is the evidence to
that: First: The Verse uses the word “bahrayn” (two seas) without any
qualification. This means that salt seas are intended here. Second:
The Verses in Surat Al-Rahman show that the two seas yield pearls and
“Marjan”(carol). It has become evident that Marjan is found in salt
seas only. This indicates that the Verse is referring to two salt
seas. Allah (SWT) says: “Out of them both come out pearls and carol,”
i.e. out of each of them. Who knew in the past that salt seas differ
in many respects in spite of their apparent similarity to the
observer? (They all taste salt, look blue, have waves, contain fish,
etc.) How can they differ although they meet each other? We know that
when two amounts of water are mixed in a container they get
homogenous. How can seas remain differentiated even in the presence of
the factors of mixing, such as the ebb and flow of the sea, currents
and storms? The Verse mentions the meeting of two salt seas that
differ from one another. If the two seas were similar to one another,
they would be one sea. However, differentiating between them in the
Qur’anic utterance implies the difference between them although they
are both salt. (He has let free (Maraja) the two seas meeting
together) means that the two seas are mixed; they are in the state of
backward and forward movements, of mixing and turbulence at the site
of the meeting, as is understood from the literal meaning of “Maraja”.
This is the fact that science has discovered, that is to say, the
barrier is described as being zigzag or wavy and shifting in position
during the various seasons because of the tide and winds. This Verse
by itself implies the presence of so much mixing and merging between
these seas as would deprive them of their distinctive properties. But
Allah (SWT), the All-Knower, shows in the following Verse that
“between them is a barrier which they do not transgress”, i.e. In
spite of this state of merging and turbulence that characterizes the
seas there is a barrier between them preventing them from
transgressing or exceeding their limits. This is what man has
discovered as a result of the advances achieved in his sciences and
instruments. It has been found that a third water mass separates the
two seas and it has such properties as are different from those of
each of the two seas separated by it. Yet, in spite of the presence of
the barrier, the waters of the two adjacent seas mix very slowly
without one sea encroaching upon the other through carrying over its
own properties to it, for the barrier zone is a region for changing
the water crossing from one sea to the other so that it gradually
acquires the properties of the sea that is going to enter and loses
the properties of the sea it has come form. Thus neither of the two
seas transgresses by carrying its own properties to the other,
although they mix during the process of meeting. How truthful is
Allah’s Saying: (He has let free (maraja) the two seas meeting
together. Between them is a barrier which they do not transgress.)
Most commentators suggest that the barrier that separates the two seas
referred to here is an invisible barrier created by Allah. Some
commentators find it difficult to reconcile the idea of the seas being
merging and the presence of a barrier at the same time, for the
presence of a barrier entails the prevention of merging. So the
mention of merging (maraja) entails the absence of a barrier. This
apparent contradiction has been resolved by discovering the secrets of
the seas. The Miraculous Aspects of the Previous Verses: We can
conclude the following from the discussion above: The Holy Qur’an,
which was revealed more than 14 centuries ago, includes very precise
pieces of information and knowledge about marine phenomena that have
been discovered only recently by means of very sophisticated
equipment. An instance in this respect is the existence of water
barriers between seas. Allah (SWT) says:(He has let free (maraja) the
two seas meeting together. Between them is a barrier which they do not
transgress.) The historical development of Oceanography shows that no
precise information had been available on seas before Challenger
Expedition (in 1873 AD), let alone at the time when the Holy Qur’an
was being revealed 14 centuries ago to an illiterate Prophet that
lived in a desert environment and never traveled by sea. Oceanography
has witnessed no advances except in the last two centuries,
particularly in the latter half of the twentieth century. Prior to
that a sea was considered as something fearful and mysterious. Myths
and superstitions were fabricated about it. Sea voyagers were only
interested in their own safety and how to find the correct routes
during their long journeys. Man discovered that salt seas are
different only in the thirties of the twentieth century, after
thousands of marine stations had been established by researchers to
analyze samples of sea water to measure the differences between the
degrees of temperature, salinity, density and oxygen dissolubility in
the sea water recorded at all those stations, and then realize that
salt seas are different. Man did not know anything about the barrier
that separates between salt seas till the establishment of the
aforesaid stations, and after spending a long time tracing these wavy
moving barriers that change their geographical locations with the
change of seasons. Man did not know that the water masses of the two
seas are separated by a water barrier and are mixed at the same time
till he started studying with his ships and equipment the water
movement in the meeting region of the seas and analyzing the water
masses in those regions. Man did not apply this rule to all seas that
meet together except after vast scientific surveying, investigation
and verification of this phenomenon, which occurs between each pair of
adjacent seas in the world. Now then, did Allah’s Messenger (Peace be
upon him) own stations and equipment for analyzing water and the
ability to trace the movement of various water masses? Did he carry
out a comprehensive surveying process, although he never sailed the
sea and lived at a time when superstitions were prevalent,
particularly in the field of seas? Were, at the time of Allah’s
Messenger (Peace be upon him) such researches, instruments and studies
as are available for the oceanographers of today who have discovered
all these secrets by means of research and study? This knowledge,
which the Qur’an came with, included a precise de******ion of the
subtlest secrets at a time when humanity could never have known them,
which indicates that its source is Divine, as Allah (SWT) says: (Say:
“the (Qur’an) was sent down by Him Who knows the secret (that is) in
the heavens and the earth: Verily He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.)
(XXV: 6) It also indicates that the one to whom the Book was sent down
was a Messenger inspired. Allah (SWT) but says the Truth in the Verse:
(Soon will We show Our Signs in the Universe and in their own selves,
until it becomes manifest to them that this the Truth. Is it not
sufficient that your Lord does witness all things?) to more
http://rapidshare.com/files/18405467…5___1586_.html
For more information about Islam
http://english.islamway.com/
http://www.islamhouse.com/
http://www.discoverislam.com/
http://www.islambasics.com/index.php
http://english.islamway.com/
http://www.islamtoday.net/english/
http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/MainPage/indexe.php
http://www.sultan.org/
http://www.islamonline.net/
Contact Us At
Imanway-qa at (no spam) gmail.com |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:54 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
Dear Mazer:
"Mazer" <eric.mazer at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:cb0e4ecd-37f3-4c38-ac47-d45f84a7c45b at (no spam) e4g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
[quote:4b43929c20]Hello and thanks for checking out my posting.
Can anyone please help me with a fairly
elementary question please?
When I freeze water and make Ice cubes, for
example, I notice that the water expands in
the tray when it turns to Ice.
[/quote:4b43929c20]
Yes, its crystal structure at low pressures leaves room for air
(but not water) to enter. Which is why it floats (not the air
per se, but the extra room)
[quote:4b43929c20]My question is: If i put the same water into a
rigid box that is filled to the top and sealed on
all sides, what would happen to the water as it
freezes?
[/quote:4b43929c20]
It freezes. It dosn't get any bigger if the container is strong
enough. Glacial ice is compressed by lots of pressure (at least
near the bottom), and it barely floats at all.
[quote:4b43929c20]Would the ice be stronger?
[/quote:4b43929c20]
A bit.
[quote:4b43929c20]Would the crystals be smaller?
[/quote:4b43929c20]
I don't know this. I think it becomes one big crystal, if cooled
slowly.
David A. Smith |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Herman Family... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:02 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
"Mazer" <eric.mazer at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:cb0e4ecd-37f3-4c38-ac47-d45f84a7c45b at (no spam) e4g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
[quote:251fa3fb84]Hello and thanks for checking out my posting.
Can anyone please help me with a fairly elementary question please?
When I freeze water and make Ice cubes, for example, I notice that the
water expands in the tray when it turns to Ice.
My question is: If i put the same water into a rigid box that is
filled to the top and sealed on all sides, what would happen to the
water as it freezes? Would the ice be stronger? Would the crystals
be smaller? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Eric
[/quote:251fa3fb84]
That depends on the box and how cold you make it. The water will exert a
tremendous force on the box as it tries to freeze. I don't know the exact
amount, but it will depend on the temperature. My guess is that it will be
in the order of 100,000 psi. If your box holds that, then you may still
form ice, but a more compact version of it. There are several phases of
ice. In any event, by -20C, the water will freeze.
Michael
Michael |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Mark Thorson... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:03 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
Mazer wrote:
[quote:6a91c0ede0]
Hello and thanks for checking out my posting.
Can anyone please help me with a fairly elementary question please?
When I freeze water and make Ice cubes, for example, I notice that the
water expands in the tray when it turns to Ice.
My question is: If i put the same water into a rigid box that is
filled to the top and sealed on all sides, what would happen to the
water as it freezes? Would the ice be stronger? Would the crystals
be smaller? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
[/quote:6a91c0ede0]
Eventually, it would freeze as the temperature goes down
or the pressure goes up. Precisely what kind of ice it
would be depends on where it is on the phase diagram.
http://www1.lsbu.ac.uk/water/phase.html |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Mark Thorson... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:06 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
"N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)" wrote:
[quote:6cc8d973d3]
Yes, its crystal structure at low pressures leaves room for air
(but not water) to enter. Which is why it floats (not the air
per se, but the extra room)
[/quote:6cc8d973d3]
It's not air. It's void space. If it were air,
then gas-free ice would be heavier than water.
It's not. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:47 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Mark Thorson... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:12 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
"N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)" wrote:
[quote:c3cd7b868a]
Dear Mark Thorson:
"Mark Thorson" <nospam at (no spam) sonic.net> wrote in message
news:4AD691C0.1A84466E at (no spam) sonic.net...
"N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)" wrote:
Yes, its crystal structure at low pressures
leaves room for air (but not water) to enter.
Which is why it floats (not the air per se,
but the extra room)
It's not air. It's void space. If it were air,
then gas-free ice would be heavier than water.
It's not.
It would not be heavier than water with air in the void spaces,
but it would be heavier than similar ice with "nothing" in the
void space.
http://www.sciencelearn.org.nz/contexts/icy_ecosystems/nz_research/trapped_in_ice
[/quote:c3cd7b868a]
The original poster was talking about freezing water
to make ice, not ice with bubbles in it. Quoting
from your source above:
"The melted and compacted snowflakes are now called firn. Later,
the connections are sealed off, leaving visible bubbles in the ice."
That's a completely different phenomenon than the
formation of ice by freezing water. The expansion
of water upon freezing is due to the less dense
structure of ice as compared to liquid water and
has absolutely nothing to do with trapped gas.
The additional volume of ice as compared to liquid
water is void space, not air. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| dlzc... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 4:05 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
Dear Mark Thorson:
On Oct 14, 11:12 pm, Mark Thorson <nos... at (no spam) sonic.net> wrote:
[quote:cb0601dfb0]"N:dlzcD:aol T:com (dlzc)" wrote:
"Mark Thorson" <nos... at (no spam) sonic.net> wrote in message
news:4AD691C0.1A84466E at (no spam) sonic.net...
"N:dlzcD:aol T:com (dlzc)" wrote:
Yes, its crystal structure at low pressures
leaves room for air (but not water) to enter.
Which is why it floats (not the air per se,
but the extra room)
It's not air. It's void space. If it were air,
then gas-free ice would be heavier than water.
It's not.
It would not be heavier than water with air in
the void spaces, but it would be heavier than
similar ice with "nothing" in the void space.
snip link now broken by Google.Groups
The original poster was talking about freezing
water to make ice, not ice with bubbles in it.
Quoting from your source above:
"The melted and compacted snowflakes are now
called firn. Later, the connections are sealed off,
leaving visible bubbles in the ice."
That's a completely different phenomenon than the
formation of ice by freezing water. The expansion
of water upon freezing is due to the less dense
structure of ice as compared to liquid water and
has absolutely nothing to do with trapped gas.
The additional volume of ice as compared to liquid
water is void space, not air.
[/quote:cb0601dfb0]
Thanks. We needn't go into the need to degassify the water prior to
freezing either, I hope.
Let's add this for posterity:
http://www1.lsbu.ac.uk/water/amorph.html
.... with ice densities exceeding that of sea water are described.
David A. Smith |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| David Bostwick... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:58 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
In article <cb0e4ecd-37f3-4c38-ac47-d45f84a7c45b at (no spam) e4g2000prn.googlegroups.com>, Mazer <eric.mazer at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
[quote:83083e3169]Hello and thanks for checking out my posting.
Can anyone please help me with a fairly elementary question please?
When I freeze water and make Ice cubes, for example, I notice that the
water expands in the tray when it turns to Ice.
My question is: If i put the same water into a rigid box that is
filled to the top and sealed on all sides, what would happen to the
water as it freezes? Would the ice be stronger? Would the crystals
be smaller? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Eric
[/quote:83083e3169]
You're obviously too young to have ever received milk from the milkman on a
cold winter day. So am I, for that matter, but we got ours straight from the
cow, so it wasn't likely to freeze. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| dlzc... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:36 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
Dear Frank:
On Oct 15, 10:48 am, Frank <frankperiodlogu... at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote:
....
[quote:9fee9f1972]Dead of winter is the hardest time to get a
plumber because they are all out repairing
frozen burst water pipes. If my calculations
are correct, cooling to about -20 deg. C
generates a gigapascal of pressure which I
believe may be above compressive strength
of steel.
[/quote:9fee9f1972]
Ultimate *tensile* strength of steel is what you need to look at for
piping, and that is modified by the geometry that is the pipe.
Schedule 40 steel pipe is rated for a few hundred psi, with a factor
of safety of 4 to 8, and some erosion / corrosion history on an
installed pipe. Failure would occur with most common building
materials...
David A. Smith |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Frank... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 11:48 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
David Bostwick wrote:
[quote:232a7abd9c]In article <cb0e4ecd-37f3-4c38-ac47-d45f84a7c45b at (no spam) e4g2000prn.googlegroups.com>, Mazer <eric.mazer at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
Hello and thanks for checking out my posting.
Can anyone please help me with a fairly elementary question please?
When I freeze water and make Ice cubes, for example, I notice that the
water expands in the tray when it turns to Ice.
My question is: If i put the same water into a rigid box that is
filled to the top and sealed on all sides, what would happen to the
water as it freezes? Would the ice be stronger? Would the crystals
be smaller? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Eric
You're obviously too young to have ever received milk from the milkman on a
cold winter day. So am I, for that matter, but we got ours straight from the
cow, so it wasn't likely to freeze.
[/quote:232a7abd9c]
Dead of winter is the hardest time to get a plumber because they are all
out repairing frozen burst water pipes. If my calculations are correct,
cooling to about -20 deg. C generates a gigapascal of pressure which I
believe may be above compressive strength of steel. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Frank... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 3:42 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
dlzc wrote:
[quote:8d169bbae1]Dear Frank:
On Oct 15, 10:48 am, Frank <frankperiodlogu... at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote:
...
Dead of winter is the hardest time to get a
plumber because they are all out repairing
frozen burst water pipes. If my calculations
are correct, cooling to about -20 deg. C
generates a gigapascal of pressure which I
believe may be above compressive strength
of steel.
Ultimate *tensile* strength of steel is what you need to look at for
piping, and that is modified by the geometry that is the pipe.
Schedule 40 steel pipe is rated for a few hundred psi, with a factor
of safety of 4 to 8, and some erosion / corrosion history on an
installed pipe. Failure would occur with most common building
materials...
David A. Smith
[/quote:8d169bbae1]
Tensile strength of steel is over 100,000 psi. I'm thinking maybe
120,000 to 140,000. In steel gun barrels it is not uncommon for
pressures to go over 50,000 psi but that is only for a few milliseconds.
Compressive strengths are higher but quick googling gave me no numbers. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Mark Thorson... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 4:12 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
Frank wrote:
[quote:e92061c75d]
dlzc wrote:
Ultimate *tensile* strength of steel is what you need to look at for
piping, and that is modified by the geometry that is the pipe.
Schedule 40 steel pipe is rated for a few hundred psi, with a factor
of safety of 4 to 8, and some erosion / corrosion history on an
installed pipe. Failure would occur with most common building
materials...
Tensile strength of steel is over 100,000 psi. I'm thinking maybe
120,000 to 140,000. In steel gun barrels it is not uncommon for
pressures to go over 50,000 psi but that is only for a few milliseconds.
Compressive strengths are higher but quick googling gave me no numbers.
[/quote:e92061c75d]
Note that the original poster said a _box_.
This container will have to resist deformation
toward a sphere. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Bill Penrose... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:03 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
On Oct 14, 6:48 pm, Mazer <eric.ma... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
[quote:32161c6b27]... If i put the same water into a rigid box that is
filled to the top and sealed on all sides, what would happen to the
water as it freezes? Would the ice be stronger? Would the crystals
be smaller? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
[/quote:32161c6b27]
Freezing water has been used to break hollow iron cannonballs before
the iron is melted for recycling. That's a lot of force.
If you theorize a completely rigid box, the ice might form another
phase, or the crystal structure would be distorted at the molecular
level. I don't know how strong such a box might be.
DB |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
All times are GMT - 5 Hours
The time now is Sat Dec 12, 2009 4:08 am
|
|