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| Matthias M. Giwer... |
 Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:32 am |
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If there were evidence of a biblical Israel what would it be like?
We could find out what it is like by visiting a museum where one of
the many traveling exhibits sponsored by Israel would be on display. We
could compare these finds to the traveling exhibits sponsored by Egypt of
its ancient culture. We would see the treasures of its great kings. There
would be replicas of the inscriptions proclaiming their military triumphs.
There would be dioramas of their triumphal architecture and reconstructions
of their great cities and palaces.
Or would could learn by a direct comparison by first visiting
several of the many vast ruins in Egypt and then visiting several of the
vast ruins in Israel. This would let us compare their size, extent and
grandeur. Just to be fair we could also tour Rome and Athens so it would
not be just an either/or comparison with Egypt.
But as there is no evidence of biblical Israel these methods of
comparison are not possible.
What we can do is travel to Syria and Israel and compare artifacts
of Egyptian, Hittite and Greek rule of the two.
What we cannot do is find any evidence of an independent, indigenous
culture in Israel that can be differentiated from Phoenician or, to some
extent, Greek culture pre-Alexander.
What we cannot find in Israel is a single inscription mentioning
Israel. Nor can we find a single inscription in Israel mentioning any of its
kings. Nor can we find any of their palaces. Nor can we find anything
parallel to the things we can find in Egypt, Rome, and Greece. We cannot
find a single sign of the biblical Israel which ruled from Egypt to the
Euphrates.
--
A real American only needs one finger while an Englishman requires two.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 4176
http://www.giwersworld.org/palestine/answers.phtml a9
Wed Oct 14 02:06:58 EDT 2009 |
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| JTEM... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:12 am |
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Tom P <th_om_a... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
[quote:3bbca5d9b3]How strange. An archaeologist named Israel Finkelstein
and an historian named Neil Asher Silberman found lots
of evidence for a people and kingdoms much like those
described in the Hebrew bible.
[/quote:3bbca5d9b3]
No they didn't.
They concluded that the biblical stories were all a bunch of
cow patties, and then they tried to slap the "Israel" label on
the Pagan states to the north, in Lebanon & Syria.
You know, like Ugarit.
[quote:3bbca5d9b3]These two guys have even written some books and a
whole bunch of articles describing their evidence.
[/quote:3bbca5d9b3]
You're full of shit.
[quote:3bbca5d9b3]So have thousands of other historians and archaeologists.
[/quote:3bbca5d9b3]
Liar. Finkelstein & Silberman are considered quite controversial.
http://prophetess.lstc.edu/~rklein/Documents/grounds.htm
Oh, look, a cite!
See how that works, shit for brains? |
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| Tiglath... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:17 am |
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On Oct 14, 2:32 am, "Matthias M. Giwer" <matt at (no spam) localhost> wrote:
[quote:37cdcb70fe] What we cannot find in Israel is a single inscription mentioning
Israel.
[/quote:37cdcb70fe]
We have an Egyptian encryption dated c. 1200 B.C. mentioning Israel. |
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| Tiglath... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:18 am |
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On Oct 14, 2:32 am, "Matthias M. Giwer" <matt at (no spam) localhost> wrote:
[quote:1754df7dc5] What we cannot find in Israel is a single inscription mentioning
Israel.
[/quote:1754df7dc5]
We have an Egyptian encryption dated c. 1200 B.C. mentioning Israel. |
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| JTEM... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:26 am |
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Tiglath <te... at (no spam) tiglath.net> wrote:
[quote:244c3a1542]We have an Egyptian encryption dated
c. 1200 B.C. mentioning Israel.
[/quote:244c3a1542]
No we don't. |
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| Tom P... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:58 am |
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Matthias M. Giwer wrote:
[quote:f5d3229236]If there were evidence of a biblical Israel what would it be like?
We could find out what it is like by visiting a museum where one of
the many traveling exhibits sponsored by Israel would be on display. We
could compare these finds to the traveling exhibits sponsored by Egypt of
its ancient culture. We would see the treasures of its great kings. There
would be replicas of the inscriptions proclaiming their military triumphs.
There would be dioramas of their triumphal architecture and reconstructions
of their great cities and palaces.
Or would could learn by a direct comparison by first visiting
several of the many vast ruins in Egypt and then visiting several of the
vast ruins in Israel. This would let us compare their size, extent and
grandeur. Just to be fair we could also tour Rome and Athens so it would
not be just an either/or comparison with Egypt.
But as there is no evidence of biblical Israel these methods of
comparison are not possible.
What we can do is travel to Syria and Israel and compare artifacts
of Egyptian, Hittite and Greek rule of the two.
What we cannot do is find any evidence of an independent, indigenous
culture in Israel that can be differentiated from Phoenician or, to some
extent, Greek culture pre-Alexander.
What we cannot find in Israel is a single inscription mentioning
Israel. Nor can we find a single inscription in Israel mentioning any of
its
kings. Nor can we find any of their palaces. Nor can we find anything
parallel to the things we can find in Egypt, Rome, and Greece. We cannot
find a single sign of the biblical Israel which ruled from Egypt to the
Euphrates.
How strange. An archaeologist named Israel Finkelstein and an historian[/quote:f5d3229236]
named Neil Asher Silberman found lots of evidence for a people and
kingdoms much like those described in the Hebrew bible. These two guys
have even written some books and a whole bunch of articles describing
their evidence. So have thousands of other historians and archaeologists.
The Nazi thug Giwer chooses not believe the evidence. Well, actually
the Nazi thug Giwer chose to remain deliberately ignorant of the
evidence because the tons (literally) of physical evidence utterly
destroys Giwer's bogus kook theories and exposes them for the Giwerian
gobbledygook they are. |
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| JTEM... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:30 am |
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Tom P <th_om_a... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
[quote:7e8923ee03]Ah, young JTEM the ignorant. Israel Finkelstein
disagrees with you.
[/quote:7e8923ee03]
And you disagree with him. Well, you have up until now.
Yup, Finkelstein says the biblical stories are all a bunch
of hogwash, and you've spent the better part of a year
arguing biblical accuracy.
Then again, insane people like you have no problems
arguing contradictory positions, do you?
Anyhow, I never pretended to agree with Finkelstein, the
way he tries to glue the "Israel" label on people that
nobody else would ever dream of calling "Israeli," or
"Hebrew" or even "Jewish."
But what any of this has to do with Egypt is beyond
sense.... |
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| ADR... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:52 pm |
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On Oct 14, 9:58 am, Tom P <th_om_a... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
[quote:7e2136363e]Matthias M. Giwer wrote:
If there were evidence of a biblical Israel what would it be like?
We could find out what it is like by visiting a museum where one of
the many traveling exhibits sponsored by Israel would be on display. We
could compare these finds to the traveling exhibits sponsored by Egypt of
its ancient culture. We would see the treasures of its great kings. There
would be replicas of the inscriptions proclaiming their military triumphs.
There would be dioramas of their triumphal architecture and reconstructions
of their great cities and palaces.
Or would could learn by a direct comparison by first visiting
several of the many vast ruins in Egypt and then visiting several of the
vast ruins in Israel. This would let us compare their size, extent and
grandeur. Just to be fair we could also tour Rome and Athens so it would
not be just an either/or comparison with Egypt.
But as there is no evidence of biblical Israel these methods of
comparison are not possible.
What we can do is travel to Syria and Israel and compare artifacts
of Egyptian, Hittite and Greek rule of the two.
What we cannot do is find any evidence of an independent, indigenous
culture in Israel that can be differentiated from Phoenician or, to some
extent, Greek culture pre-Alexander.
What we cannot find in Israel is a single inscription mentioning
Israel. Nor can we find a single inscription in Israel mentioning any of
its
kings. Nor can we find any of their palaces. Nor can we find anything
parallel to the things we can find in Egypt, Rome, and Greece. We cannot
find a single sign of the biblical Israel which ruled from Egypt to the
Euphrates.
How strange. An archaeologist named Israel Finkelstein and an historian
named Neil Asher Silberman found lots of evidence for a people and
kingdoms much like those described in the Hebrew bible. These two guys
have even written some books and a whole bunch of articles describing
their evidence. So have thousands of other historians and archaeologists.
The Nazi thug Giwer chooses not believe the evidence. Well, actually
the Nazi thug Giwer chose to remain deliberately ignorant of the
evidence because the tons (literally) of physical evidence utterly
destroys Giwer's bogus kook theories and exposes them for the Giwerian
gobbledygook they are.
[/quote:7e2136363e]
Well, Matt and JTEM are posting these stupidities time and time again,
hoping to generate some discussion on their points and draw newcomers
to argue with them. We have learned that they are willing to
disregard all evidence presented and keep pressing their point,
irrespective of how many times it has been proven erroneous. You are
not making a dent here, you are their latest victim. The best thing
altogether is to ignore their postings because we all know that they
are politically motivated. It would have been just so much more
appropriate to discuss their political point of view than their
fabrications. |
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| JTEM... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:54 pm |
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ADR <aretz... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
[quote:84508c5a2f]Well, Matt and JTEM are posting these stupidities
[/quote:84508c5a2f]
What are you, a fucking retard? Nothing I've said isn't fact.
....which is why you won't deal with it, asswipe. |
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| JTEM... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:02 pm |
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Tom P <th_om_a... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
[quote:4d91191c29]I think you are mistaken, JTEM.
[/quote:4d91191c29]
You're wrong.
Finkelstein and Silberman are coonsidered very contraversial.
Nobody considers them the final word.
And although Finkelstein correctly focuses on the real
archaeological evidence and concludes that the biblical
stories are all a bunch of horse shit, he then throws away
his credibility by trying to shoehorn in an Israel, more or
less rationalizing.
He identifies the Pagan cities to the north of Judea as
"Israel" simply because his worldview demands that there
be an Israel. The rest of the planet considers these people
Phoneticians -- some even call them "Canaanites".
Anyhow, the cite told you everything you need to know,
you deranged freak. Try reading it this time:
http://prophetess.lstc.edu/~rklein/Documents/grounds.htm |
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| JTEM... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:11 pm |
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Tom P <th_om_a... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
[quote:93c888315b]Was Finkelstein lying?
[/quote:93c888315b]
Who gives a shit? Seriously, you throw around the name like
it's some kind of authority, when in fact he's a magnet for
controversy.
Shit for brains.
[quote:93c888315b]You are the ninny who denied the existence of an Egyptian
stela dated to c. 1200 BCE which mentions Israel.
[/quote:93c888315b]
There's no such thing, shit for brains. The ancient Egyptians
had no letter 'L' for starters, so right there you know they
couldn't have written "Israel." And just forget about the myth
that they substituted a mouth symbol WITH A LITERAL MARK
for an 'L', pretending that someone transliterated the stele
as "ISRAER".
That's bullshit too.
Some stupid retards insist that the stele HAS TO mention
"Israel" so they /interpret/ it as mentioning "Israel."
And this is a fact. It is a fact so plain, so clear that only a
complete mental case would deny it. It does __NOT__ say
Israel, it is merely interpreted as "Israel."
So why do you idiots interpret it as Israel? You won't say.
All you do is pretend that is says "Israel,' hoping to convince
stupid people who are too goddamn lazy to investigate your
pathetic claim. |
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| ADR... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:14 pm |
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On Oct 14, 3:54 pm, JTEM <jte... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
[quote:129b2fe17d]ADR <aretz... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
Well, Matt and JTEM are posting these stupidities
What are you, a fucking retard? Nothing I've said isn't fact.
....which is why you won't deal with it, asswipe.
[/quote:129b2fe17d]
Unfortunately, all of it is. |
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| Tom P... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:36 pm |
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JTEM wrote:
[quote:17e6783fba]Tiglath <te... at (no spam) tiglath.net> wrote:
We have an Egyptian encryption dated
c. 1200 B.C. mentioning Israel.
No we don't.
Ah, young JTEM the ignorant. Israel Finkelstein disagrees with you.[/quote:17e6783fba]
Obviously you didn't read the "cite" you are so proud of.
Your "cite" at http://prophetess.lstc.edu/~rklein/Documents/grounds.htm
contains this quotation from Israel Finkelstein: "There is a stela in a
Cairo museum on which the word Israel first appears in written form. The
son of Ramesses II launched a military expedition to Caanan and
conquered Ashkelon and Gezer, and wrote the famous sentence, `Israel is
spoiled, his seed is not.' That was in 1207 BCE - after the conquest as
related in the Bible."
Oops!
Now what have you got to say, young JTEM?
Was Finkelstein lying?
Did Finkelstein make a mistake?
Or did young JTEM hang himself from the petard of his very own ignorance
again?
Bet that's painful, isn't it, young JTEM? |
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| Tom P... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:52 pm |
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JTEM wrote:
[quote:b04eda432c]Tom P <th_om_a... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
How strange. An archaeologist named Israel Finkelstein
and an historian named Neil Asher Silberman found lots
of evidence for a people and kingdoms much like those
described in the Hebrew bible.
No they didn't.
I think you are mistaken, JTEM. Have you ever read any of their books[/quote:b04eda432c]
or articles?
If so, which?
[quote:b04eda432c]They concluded that the biblical stories were all a bunch of
cow patties, and then they tried to slap the "Israel" label on
the Pagan states to the north, in Lebanon & Syria.
Oh really, young JTEM?[/quote:b04eda432c]
On what page of which book did they draw such conclusions?
Be precise, young JTEM. You made the allegation, now it is your duty to
prove your allegation using sources. That is easy in this case because
Finkelstein and Silberman only co-wrote two books. I just happen to
have copies of both books co-authored by Finkelstein and Silberman on my
shelves so I can quickly know whether your quotations are accurate.
[quote:b04eda432c]You know, like Ugarit.
No, actually, I don't know. Please, do enlighten me.[/quote:b04eda432c]
[quote:b04eda432c]These two guys have even written some books and a
whole bunch of articles describing their evidence.
You're full of shit.
Come, come young JTEM. Surely you know that Finkelstein and Silberman[/quote:b04eda432c]
co-authored two books concerning the historicity of the Jewish
scriptures and both individually have a long list of publications
elsewhere.
[quote:b04eda432c]So have thousands of other historians and archaeologists.
Liar. Finkelstein & Silberman are considered quite controversial.
How does that controversy negate my proposition that "thousands of other[/quote:b04eda432c]
historians and archaeologists" have written books and other articles
describing the evidence of a Judean people writing in Hebrew in the
Judean highlands?
[quote:b04eda432c]http://prophetess.lstc.edu/~rklein/Documents/grounds.htm
Oh, look, a cite!
Did you bother to read your "cite" before you posted it?[/quote:b04eda432c]
[quote:b04eda432c]See how that works, shit for brains?
Is this quotation from your "cite" an example of how "They [Finkelstein[/quote:b04eda432c]
and Silberman] concluded that the biblical stories were all a bunch of
cow patties"?
Interviewer: So are you saying that the United Monarchy is a lie?
Finkelstein: "I don' [sic] believe in lies in history. Spin, yes; lies,
no. What I am saying is that if in the seventh century BCE a strong
tradition existed in Jerusalem that the temple on the hill had been
built by the founders of the dynasty, I see no reason to question that.
That doesn't mean it was a huge and magnificent building. On the
question of the grandeur of the United Monarchy I find myself in a tough
scholarly confrontation: there is still a debate over the archaeological
remnants. Two magnificent palaces were found at Megiddo. [The noted
archaeologist] Yigael Yadin said they were from the 10th century BCE,
the period of Solomon, and could support the account of the great
monarchy, whereas I think they are from the ninth century BCE, 70 years
later, from the period of the northern kingdom."
Your "cite" also contains this quotation from Finkelstein: "There is a
stela in a Cairo museum on which the word Israel first appears in
written form. The son of Ramesses [sic] II launched a military
expedition to Caanan [sic] and conquered Ashkelon and Gezer, and wrote
the famous sentence, `Israel is spoiled, his seed is not.' That was in
1207 BCE - after the conquest as related in the Bible."
And then there is this: "According to the archaeological findings, the
Israelites came from the local stock: they were actually Canaanites who
became Israelites in a socio-economic process." Who was the ninny that
made these demands: "If "Hebrew" appears in 800 BC, that means these
Hebrew people also appeared at that time. So tell us where they came
from already, and what happened to the people who were there before them."
"Map it out for us. "
Well, those words were posted by the ninny young JTEM in the thread
"When Jesus turned over the tables of the money changers."
Finkelstein and Silberman seem to have already mapped it out for us,
young JTEM. As you would know if you had read their books. I see no
reason to dispute their assessment. Do you, young JTEM?
So Finkelstein and Silberman argue chronology, not existence.
Finkelstein and Silberman argue extant of lands and peoples conquered
and ruled, not existence. You should know the difference, young JTEM,
albeit you are in despicable company. Giwer argues the same mistaken
notions you do, JTEM. Finkelstein and Silberman used the Hebrew
inscriptions on ostraca as evidence to establish their revised
chronology, which is one factor that generated the controversy. Of
course, if one actually reads the books by Finkelstein and Silberman as
opposed to an interview in an on-line English language edition of an
Israeli newspaper, one would know that. Wouldn't one, young JTEM?
The difference between our perspectives concerning the published work of
Finkelstein and Silberman is that I have actually closely read their
books. You, young JTEM, obviously have not.
Which leads to this screamingly obvious question, young JTEM. Why are
do you comment on books you have never read?
See how that works, shit for brains? |
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| Tom P... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 4:16 pm |
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JTEM wrote:
[quote:ecf0fe7b98]Tom P <th_om_a... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
Let's restore the truly embarrassing part that young JTEM deleted here,[/quote:ecf0fe7b98]
shall we?
[quote:ecf0fe7b98]Tiglath wrote:
We have an Egyptian encryption dated
c. 1200 B.C. mentioning Israel.
Young JTEM the ninny wrote:
No we don't.
Tom P responded:[/quote:ecf0fe7b98]
Ah, young JTEM the ignorant. Israel Finkelstein disagrees with you.
Obviously you didn't read the "cite" you are so proud of.
Your "cite" at http://prophetess.lstc.edu/~rklein/Documents/grounds.htm
contains this quotation from Israel Finkelstein: "There is a stela in a
Cairo museum on which the word Israel first appears in written form. The
son of Ramesses [sic] II launched a military expedition to Caanan [sic]
and conquered Ashkelon and Gezer, and wrote the famous sentence, `Israel
is spoiled, his seed is not.' That was in 1207 BCE - after the conquest
as related in the Bible."
Oops!
Now what have you got to say, young JTEM?
Was Finkelstein lying?
Did Finkelstein make a mistake?
Or did young JTEM hang himself from the petard of his very own ignorance
again?
Bet that's painful, isn't it, young JTEM?
[quote:ecf0fe7b98]Ah, young JTEM the ignorant. Israel Finkelstein
disagrees with you.
And you disagree with him. Well, you have up until now.
Do quote me concerning my alleged disagreement with Finkelstein.[/quote:ecf0fe7b98]
I don't think you can, young JTEM. But do try.
[quote:ecf0fe7b98]Yup, Finkelstein says the biblical stories are all a bunch
of hogwash, and you've spent the better part of a year
arguing biblical accuracy.
Surely you can provide pages numbers from Finkelstein's books wherein[/quote:ecf0fe7b98]
Professor Finkelstein makes such allegations. Do so, young, JTEM.
[quote:ecf0fe7b98]Then again, insane people like you have no problems
arguing contradictory positions, do you?
"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two[/quote:ecf0fe7b98]
opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to
function." - F. Scott Fitzgerald.
[quote:ecf0fe7b98]Anyhow, I never pretended to agree with Finkelstein, the
way he tries to glue the "Israel" label on people that
nobody else would ever dream of calling "Israeli," or
"Hebrew" or even "Jewish."
Is this your version of Giwerian Gobbledygook, young JTEM? When you are[/quote:ecf0fe7b98]
exposed as the woefully ignorant liar you are, you revert to
obfuscation, irrelevant changes of subject, and other assorted
nincompoopery. Figures. Is that really the best you can do, young JTEM?
[quote:ecf0fe7b98]
But what any of this has to do with Egypt is beyond
sense....
I shall explain it to you, young JTEM. You are the ninny who denied the[/quote:ecf0fe7b98]
existence of an Egyptian stela dated to c. 1200 BCE which mentions
Israel. I pointed out to you, young JTEM, that the "cite" you yourself
produced and posted flatly contradicts you.
You lied, young JTEM. And the evidence that you lied was contained in
the very "cite" you posted, in the very words of a man you cited as an
authority. You didn't read your own "cite," young JTEM. How much of a
ninny are you, young JTEM?
By the way, thanks again for your most precious gift of laughter. It is
truly appreciated! |
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