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| YvonneD... |
 Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 3:11 am |
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I've been buying sliced turkey, salami and ham at Whole Foods. They
contain only meat, natural spices, salt (bad I know) and sometimes can
syrup.
Are these OK to eat or are they as harmful as any other processed
meats? |
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| trigonometry1972 at (no spam) gmail.com |... |
| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 4:16 am |
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On Oct 11, 6:11 am, YvonneD <googlemail2... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
[quote:8d0141014a]I've been buying sliced turkey, salami and ham at Whole Foods. They
contain only meat, natural spices, salt (bad I know) and sometimes can
syrup.
Are these OK to eat or are they as harmful as any other processed
meats?
[/quote:8d0141014a]
Nitrated or not? If it is present and if the meat is heated
there is going to be lots of nitrosamines produced.
This will raise the cancer risk.
Additionally the following risks come to mind.
The added sugars aren't a great addition and since
some will heat these products again there will
some level of AGEs generated.
They help age the extracellular matrix.
Pork and its derived products are loaded with
arachidonic acid which is a highly inflammatory
fatty acid. A proneness to inflammation
tends to speed the rate of a cancers growth
once it has gotten started.
The salt will increase how much calcium you
lose. And it need to counterbalanced by
potassium sources i.e. veggies and fruit
as well as calcium and magnesium.
Just off the cuff stuff...............Trig |
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| Susan... |
| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 11:48 am |
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x-no-archive: yes
YvonneD wrote:
[quote:4a4b30583d]I've been buying sliced turkey, salami and ham at Whole Foods. They
contain only meat, natural spices, salt (bad I know) and sometimes can
syrup.
Are these OK to eat or are they as harmful as any other processed
meats?
[/quote:4a4b30583d]
No, they're not as harmful as long as they don't contain chemical curing
agents.
Susan |
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| Mark Thorson... |
| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 1:29 pm |
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"trigonometry1972 at (no spam) gmail.com |" wrote:
[quote:107ff16572]
On Oct 11, 6:11 am, YvonneD <googlemail2... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
I've been buying sliced turkey, salami and ham at Whole Foods. They
contain only meat, natural spices, salt (bad I know) and sometimes can
syrup.
Are these OK to eat or are they as harmful as any other processed
meats?
Nitrated or not? If it is present and if the meat is heated
there is going to be lots of nitrosamines produced.
[/quote:107ff16572]
This was believed back in the 1960's when the risk
from nitrosamines was first recognized. It's true that
nitrosamines and other N-nitroso compounds do not form
in the meat unless cooked at high temperature (such as
frying bacon or sausages). However, it has since been
learned that eating precursors for N-nitroso compounds
will cause their formation in the intestines (a process
called "endogenous N-nitrosation"), so the risk is
present whether you cook the cured meat or not.
Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev. 1996 Aug;5( :599-605.
Maternal consumption of cured meats and vitamins
in relation to pediatric brain tumors.
Preston-Martin S, Pogoda JM, Mueller BA, Holly EA,
Lijinsky W, Davis RL.
Department of Preventive Medicine, University of
Southern California/Norris Comprehensive
Cancer Center, Los Angeles 90033-0800, USA.
Brain tumors are the leading cause of death from
childhood cancer, yet the causes of most of
these tumors remain obscure. Few chemicals are
effective in causing brain tumors experimentally
after systemic administration of low doses; a
notable exception is one group of N-nitroso
compounds, the nitrosamides (in particular the
nitrosoureas). Feeding pregnant animals
nitrosamide precursors (e.g., sodium nitrite and
an alkylamide such as ethylurea) causes a high
incidence of nervous system tumors in offspring.
This population-based epidemiological study
was designed to test the hypothesis that maternal
consumption during pregnancy of meats cured
with sodium nitrite increases the risk of brain
tumors among offspring. The intake of vitamins C
and E blocks endogenous formation of nitroso
compounds and was expected to be protective.
Mothers of 540 children under age 20 with a
primary brain tumor diagnosed during 1984-1991
and 801 control children in the same 19 counties
on the U.S. West Coast were interviewed. Risk
increased with increasing frequency of eating
processed meats [odds ratio (OR) = 2.1 for eating
at least twice a day compared to not eating; 95%
confidence interval (CI) = 1.3-3.2; P = 0.003).
Risk also increased with increasing average daily
grams of cured meats or mg of nitrite from
cured meats (P for each <0.005) but not with
nitrate from vegetables. Daily use of prenatal
vitamins throughout the pregnancy decreased risk
(OR = 0.54; CI = 0.39-0.75). Risk among
mothers who consumed above the median level of
nitrite from cured meat was greater if vitamins
were not taken (OR = 2.4; CI = 1.4-3.6) than if
they were (OR = 1.3). These effects were
evident for each of three major histological
types and across social classes, age groups, and
geographic areas. This largest study to date of
maternal diet and childhood brain tumors suggests
that exposure during gestation to endogenously
formed nitroso compounds may be associated
with tumor occurrence. Laboratory exploration is
needed to: (a) define dietary sources of
exposure to alkylamides; (b) investigate the
reactivity of nitrite in high concentration such
as around bits of cured meats in the stomach
after ingestion compared to nitrite in dilute
solution; and (c) confirm that simultaneous
ingestion of alkylamides and cured meats leads
to the endogenous formation of nitrosamides.
Nutr Cancer. 2002;42(1):70-7.
Effect of vegetables, tea, and soy on endogenous
N-nitrosation, fecal ammonia, and fecal water
genotoxicity during a high red meat diet in
humans.
Hughes R, Pollock JR, Bingham S.
Dunn Human Nutrition Unit, Medical Research Council,
Cambridge CB2 2XY, UK.
Red meat increases colonic N-nitrosation, and
this may explain the positive epidemiological
relationship between red meat intake and colorectal
cancer risk. Vegetables, tea, and soy have
been shown to block N-nitroso compound (NOC)
formation and are associated with protection
against colorectal cancer. To determine whether
these supplements affect fecal NOC excretion
during consumption of a high red meat (420 g/day)
diet, 11 male volunteers were studied over a
randomized series of 15-day dietary periods. Seven
of these subjects completed a further dietary
period to test the effects of soy (100 g/day).
Soy significantly suppressed fecal apparent total
NOC (ATNC) concentration (P = 0.02), but
supplements of vegetables (400 g/day as 134 g
broccoli, 134 g brussels sprouts, and 134 g petits
pois) and tea extract (3 g/day) did not affect
mean levels of fecal ATNC, nitrogen and ammonia
excretion, and fecal water genotoxicity.
However, fecal weight was increased (P < 0.001)
and associated with reduced transit time (r =
0.594, P < 0.0001), so that contact between ATNC,
nitrite, and ammonia and the large bowel
mucosa would have been reduced. Longer transit
times were associated with elevated fecal
ATNC concentrations (r = 0.42, P = 0.002). Fecal
nitrite was significantly suppressed during the
tea supplement compared with the meat-only
(P = 0.0028) and meat + vegetables diets (P =
0.005 for microgram NO2/g). |
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| trigonometry1972 at (no spam) gmail.com |... |
| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:23 pm |
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I am assuming that the heating does increase
the net of nitrosamines and other toxic changes
in the meat by of AGEs, PAAs and PAHs. To reduce
to endogenous production of nitrosamines taking a vitamin
C supplement such gastric secretions contain
the vitamin or that it is directly present.
I recall reading quite a number of papers
back in the 70's on the topic. Though the
specific points are fading such that a refresher
is needed on my part.
going going and gone............Trig |
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| Ron Peterson... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:29 am |
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On Oct 11, 8:11 am, YvonneD <googlemail2... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
[quote:87e17287b5]I've been buying sliced turkey, salami and ham at Whole Foods. They
contain only meat, natural spices, salt (bad I know) and sometimes can
syrup.
[/quote:87e17287b5]
Not everything at Whole Foods is healthy.
[quote:87e17287b5]Are these OK to eat or are they as harmful as any other processed
meats?
[/quote:87e17287b5]
IIRC, there are some population studies showing processed meat
consumption as correlating with CVD.
Just avoid those containing nitrates, nitrites, and phosphate. (good
luck in finding any!).
--
Ron |
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| Mark Thorson... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:13 pm |
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Ron Peterson wrote:
[quote:e014a1b60b]
On Oct 11, 8:11 am, YvonneD <googlemail2... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
I've been buying sliced turkey, salami and ham at Whole Foods. They
contain only meat, natural spices, salt (bad I know) and sometimes can
syrup.
Not everything at Whole Foods is healthy.
Are these OK to eat or are they as harmful as any other processed
meats?
IIRC, there are some population studies showing processed meat
consumption as correlating with CVD.
Just avoid those containing nitrates, nitrites, and phosphate. (good
luck in finding any!).
[/quote:e014a1b60b]
Actually, they aren't hard to find at Whole Foods and
Trader Joe's. However, you won't find nitrate/nitrite-free
ham, salami, etc. at most conventional supermarkets like
Safeway. |
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| Ron Peterson... |
| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 6:27 pm |
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On Oct 12, 1:13 pm, Mark Thorson <nos... at (no spam) sonic.net> wrote:
[quote:b41be8df82]Ron Peterson wrote:
IIRC, there are some population studies showing processed meat
consumption as correlating with CVD.
Just avoid those containing nitrates, nitrites, and phosphate. (good
luck in finding any!).
Actually, they aren't hard to find at Whole Foods and
Trader Joe's. However, you won't find nitrate/nitrite-free
ham, salami, etc. at most conventional supermarkets like
Safeway.
[/quote:b41be8df82]
Hormel has a natural choice brand which is supposed to be low in
preservatives.
I did pick up a package of low sodium ham today at Trader Joe's, but
the ham does contain sodium phosphate and sodium nitrite.
--
Ron |
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| YvonneD... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 1:07 pm |
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On Oct 13, 12:27 am, Ron Peterson <r... at (no spam) shell.core.com> wrote:
[quote:854beb0cdd]On Oct 12, 1:13 pm, Mark Thorson <nos... at (no spam) sonic.net> wrote:
Ron Peterson wrote:
IIRC, there are some population studies showing processed meat
consumption as correlating with CVD.
Just avoid those containing nitrates, nitrites, and phosphate. (good
luck in finding any!).
Actually, they aren't hard to find at Whole Foods and
Trader Joe's. However, you won't find nitrate/nitrite-free
ham, salami, etc. at most conventional supermarkets like
Safeway.
Hormel has a natural choice brand which is supposed to be low in
preservatives.
I did pick up a package of low sodium ham today at Trader Joe's, but
the ham does contain sodium phosphate and sodium nitrite.
--
Ron
[/quote:854beb0cdd]
I've had the Hormel and it's very good and very reasonably priced,
biggest problem is it's too salty. Ingredients are the same as the
meats sold at Whole Foods.
All the cold cuts at Whole Foods, and some at Trader Joe's contain no
chemicals at all. |
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| Ron Peterson... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 1:35 pm |
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On Oct 15, 6:07 pm, YvonneD <googlemail2... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
[quote:7c2fbb2e92]On Oct 13, 12:27 am, Ron Peterson <r... at (no spam) shell.core.com> wrote:
I did pick up a package of low sodium ham today at Trader Joe's, but
the ham does contain sodium phosphate and sodium nitrite.
I've had the Hormel and it's very good and very reasonably priced,
biggest problem is it's too salty. Ingredients are the same as the
meats sold at Whole Foods.
All the cold cuts at Whole Foods, and some at Trader Joe's contain no
chemicals at all.
[/quote:7c2fbb2e92]
http://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/products/unacceptable-ingredients.php
which is Whole Foods unacceptable ingredients list doesn't mention
sodium phosphate.
--
Ron |
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| trigonometry1972 at (no spam) gmail.com |... |
| Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 4:15 pm |
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Guest
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On Oct 15, 4:07 pm, YvonneD <googlemail2... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
[quote:de3b72c1da]On Oct 13, 12:27 am, Ron Peterson <r... at (no spam) shell.core.com> wrote:
On Oct 12, 1:13 pm, Mark Thorson <nos... at (no spam) sonic.net> wrote:
Ron Peterson wrote:
IIRC, there are some population studies showing processed meat
consumption as correlating with CVD.
Just avoid those containing nitrates, nitrites, and phosphate. (good
luck in finding any!).
Actually, they aren't hard to find at Whole Foods and
Trader Joe's. However, you won't find nitrate/nitrite-free
ham, salami, etc. at most conventional supermarkets like
Safeway.
Hormel has a natural choice brand which is supposed to be low in
preservatives.
I did pick up a package of low sodium ham today at Trader Joe's, but
the ham does contain sodium phosphate and sodium nitrite.
--
Ron
I've had the Hormel and it's very good and very reasonably priced,
biggest problem is it's too salty. Ingredients are the same as the
meats sold at Whole Foods.
All the cold cuts at Whole Foods, and some at Trader Joe's contain no
chemicals at all.
[/quote:de3b72c1da]
The biggest problem I have with ham is that it is
pork. And pork is a huge arachidonic acid source.
If you want inflammation eat pork.
I am not saying sodium or nitrate and nitrite aren't
issues.
Trig |
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| Ron Peterson... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:17 pm |
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On Oct 16, 9:15 pm, "trigonometry1... at (no spam) gmail.com |"
<trigonometry1... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]On Oct 15, 4:07 pm, YvonneD <googlemail2... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
I've had the Hormel and it's very good and very reasonably priced,
biggest problem is it's too salty. Ingredients are the same as the
meats sold at Whole Foods.
The biggest problem I have with ham is that it is
pork. And pork is a huge arachidonic acid source.
If you want inflammation eat pork.
[/quote]
Pork is only a little higher in arachidonic acid than other meats. The
amount of arachidonic acid in a normal diet isn't high enough to cause
inflammation.
--
Ron |
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| trigonometry1972 at (no spam) gmail.com |... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:39 am |
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On Oct 20, 9:17 pm, Ron Peterson <r... at (no spam) shell.core.com> wrote:
[quote]On Oct 16, 9:15 pm, "trigonometry1... at (no spam) gmail.com |"
trigonometry1... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On Oct 15, 4:07 pm, YvonneD <googlemail2... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
I've had the Hormel and it's very good and very reasonably priced,
biggest problem is it's too salty. Ingredients are the same as the
meats sold at Whole Foods.
The biggest problem I have with ham is that it is
pork. And pork is a huge arachidonic acid source.
If you want inflammation eat pork.
Pork is only a little higher in arachidonic acid than other meats. The
amount of arachidonic acid in a normal diet isn't high enough to cause
inflammation.
--
Ron
[/quote]
Well Ron you got me to look. It seems I've conflated
bacon with all pork.
100 grams servings:
Pork Bacon has an index value of 150
Pork Ham has an index value of 110
Beef top sirloin has an index of 40
Chicken thigh with skin has a value of 100
Pork tenderloin has an index of 40
Egg yolk.......................340
Egg white........................0
Peanuts...........................40
Pink salmon.......................5
Herring...............................2
Octopus.............................10
Venison tenderloin...............20
And there are a number of forms
if ground meat going from Costco
7 percent fat in the frozen section to
Winco 30 percent fat in the fresh
meat section. And then cooking
meat is important as well. George
Foreman's meat cooker here we come? ;-)
Still arachidonic acid is a factor in
inflammation according to some
especially in a diet high to omega 6 fatty acids.
It is time to reread the Chilton's book it seems.
This time putting some of his ideas into practice with
a dietary journal. I've done a good job
keeping the carbs low and that really helps.
I'll miss the eggs if I implement more of his
ideas.
But anyway some parts of pig look OK
for occasional use.
Thanks.....................Trig |
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